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  #11  
Old July 14th 11, 03:49 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech,alt.mountain-bike,alt.rec.bicycles.recumbent
SMS
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On 7/13/2011 3:46 AM, Peter Cole wrote:

As long as he limits his posts to two a day he's infallible.


I'll take twice a day as opposed to being like our favorite troll and
never being correct.
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  #12  
Old July 14th 11, 06:40 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech,alt.mountain-bike,alt.rec.bicycles.recumbent
Mike Vandeman[_4_]
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On Jul 14, 7:48*am, SMS wrote:
On 7/12/2011 5:08 PM, James wrote:

Horses also leave lots of manure that may contain foreign seeds, and it
is said heavy hooves damage delicate soil structures, in this country.


MV is probably very opposed to horses as well but since one of his only
supporters is a real estate agent that bills herself as a "Horse
Property Specialist," he feels obligated to not publicly oppose them.

This is a shame since if he could be educated to direct his efforts
against the trail users that cause the most damage he would give up on
mountain bikes and concentrate on equestrians.


The trail users who cause the most damage, BY FAR, are mountain
bikers. They travel much farther & faster than anyone else.
  #13  
Old July 14th 11, 09:02 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech,alt.mountain-bike,alt.rec.bicycles.recumbent
Peter Cole[_2_]
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On 7/14/2011 10:48 AM, SMS wrote:
On 7/12/2011 5:08 PM, James wrote:

Horses also leave lots of manure that may contain foreign seeds, and it
is said heavy hooves damage delicate soil structures, in this country.


MV is probably very opposed to horses as well but since one of his only
supporters is a real estate agent that bills herself as a "Horse
Property Specialist," he feels obligated to not publicly oppose them.

This is a shame since if he could be educated to direct his efforts
against the trail users that cause the most damage he would give up on
mountain bikes and concentrate on equestrians.



India has sacred cows, we've got sacred horses. I've ridden horses,
mountain biked and hiked on the same trails. No contest, horses trash
the place, but they're grandfathered in. It's ironic that many of our
local trails have seasonal closures during mud season, but the only
users who are excluded are bikers.
  #14  
Old July 14th 11, 09:38 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech,alt.mountain-bike,alt.rec.bicycles.recumbent
Mike Vandeman[_4_]
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Posts: 1,755
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On Jul 14, 1:02*pm, Peter Cole wrote:
On 7/14/2011 10:48 AM, SMS wrote:

On 7/12/2011 5:08 PM, James wrote:


Horses also leave lots of manure that may contain foreign seeds, and it
is said heavy hooves damage delicate soil structures, in this country.


MV is probably very opposed to horses as well but since one of his only
supporters is a real estate agent that bills herself as a "Horse
Property Specialist," he feels obligated to not publicly oppose them.


This is a shame since if he could be educated to direct his efforts
against the trail users that cause the most damage he would give up on
mountain bikes and concentrate on equestrians.


India has sacred cows, we've got sacred horses. I've ridden horses,
mountain biked and hiked on the same trails. No contest, horses trash
the place, but they're grandfathered in. It's ironic that many of our
local trails have seasonal closures during mud season, but the only
users who are excluded are bikers.


You obviously haven't studied the SCIENCE (REAL science, not the JUNK
science created by mountain bikers). The SCIENCE shows that mountain
bikers have greater impacts on erosion, plants, and animals, partly
because they generally travel several times as FAR and as FAST as
other trail users, multiplying their impacts. (See http://mjvande/nfshost.com/scb7.htm.)
Besides that, horses evolved in North America, and hence arguably have
the right to go wherever they want to. BIKES, on the other hand, and
inanimate OBJECTS, and have no rights whatsoever. And there is no
right to mountain bike (see http://mjvande/nfshost.com/mtb10.htm).
  #15  
Old July 14th 11, 10:22 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech,alt.mountain-bike,alt.rec.bicycles.recumbent
AMuzi
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Posts: 13,447
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Mike Vandeman wrote:
On Jul 14, 1:02 pm, Peter Cole wrote:
On 7/14/2011 10:48 AM, SMS wrote:

On 7/12/2011 5:08 PM, James wrote:
Horses also leave lots of manure that may contain foreign seeds, and it
is said heavy hooves damage delicate soil structures, in this country.
MV is probably very opposed to horses as well but since one of his only
supporters is a real estate agent that bills herself as a "Horse
Property Specialist," he feels obligated to not publicly oppose them.
This is a shame since if he could be educated to direct his efforts
against the trail users that cause the most damage he would give up on
mountain bikes and concentrate on equestrians.

India has sacred cows, we've got sacred horses. I've ridden horses,
mountain biked and hiked on the same trails. No contest, horses trash
the place, but they're grandfathered in. It's ironic that many of our
local trails have seasonal closures during mud season, but the only
users who are excluded are bikers.


You obviously haven't studied the SCIENCE (REAL science, not the JUNK
science created by mountain bikers). The SCIENCE shows that mountain
bikers have greater impacts on erosion, plants, and animals, partly
because they generally travel several times as FAR and as FAST as
other trail users, multiplying their impacts. (See http://mjvande/nfshost.com/scb7.htm.)
Besides that, horses evolved in North America, and hence arguably have
the right to go wherever they want to. BIKES, on the other hand, and
inanimate OBJECTS, and have no rights whatsoever. And there is no
right to mountain bike (see http://mjvande/nfshost.com/mtb10.htm).



http://www.2wheels.co.za/FTP_IMAGES/...1/OFFROAD2.jpg

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971
  #16  
Old July 14th 11, 11:29 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech,alt.mountain-bike,alt.rec.bicycles.recumbent
Peter Cole[_2_]
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On 7/14/2011 5:22 PM, AMuzi wrote:
Mike Vandeman wrote:
On Jul 14, 1:02 pm, Peter Cole wrote:
On 7/14/2011 10:48 AM, SMS wrote:

On 7/12/2011 5:08 PM, James wrote:
Horses also leave lots of manure that may contain foreign seeds,
and it
is said heavy hooves damage delicate soil structures, in this country.
MV is probably very opposed to horses as well but since one of his only
supporters is a real estate agent that bills herself as a "Horse
Property Specialist," he feels obligated to not publicly oppose them.
This is a shame since if he could be educated to direct his efforts
against the trail users that cause the most damage he would give up on
mountain bikes and concentrate on equestrians.
India has sacred cows, we've got sacred horses. I've ridden horses,
mountain biked and hiked on the same trails. No contest, horses trash
the place, but they're grandfathered in. It's ironic that many of our
local trails have seasonal closures during mud season, but the only
users who are excluded are bikers.


You obviously haven't studied the SCIENCE (REAL science, not the JUNK
science created by mountain bikers). The SCIENCE shows that mountain
bikers have greater impacts on erosion, plants, and animals, partly
because they generally travel several times as FAR and as FAST as
other trail users, multiplying their impacts. (See
http://mjvande/nfshost.com/scb7.htm.)
Besides that, horses evolved in North America, and hence arguably have
the right to go wherever they want to. BIKES, on the other hand, and
inanimate OBJECTS, and have no rights whatsoever. And there is no
right to mountain bike (see http://mjvande/nfshost.com/mtb10.htm).



http://www.2wheels.co.za/FTP_IMAGES/...1/OFFROAD2.jpg


Yeah those guys really do some landscaping. Some of the trails I ride
were cut by motorized bikes long ago. Things have stabilized in the
decade or two that I've been on them, motor bikes are long gone, but the
berms are still there. A lot of the trails I ride were created by
bulldozers, too. The rangers keep things wide enough for truck access,
and a single truck passage leaves deeper ruts than a century of mountain
bikes (extrapolating). The fragile marshy areas are mostly protected by
boardwalks, some of which I've volunteered on, but those were put down
primarily for hikers. I also ride on ski slopes (landscape by bulldozer,
again) and rocky trails originally cut by CCC during the depression.
Utility line (power transmission and aqueduct) tracks are also popular
routes. My home state (MA) was clear cut to the horizon 100 years ago,
it's no unspoiled wilderness. One of my common destinations is a capped
landfill -- right on the Charles River banks, of course. At the time it
was active, the Charles was literally an open sewer, like the harbor.
This area wasn't even virgin when the Native Americans managed it, much
less so after the Industrial Revolution got through with it. I'm as
green as the next guy, but it's pretty hard to get worked up about
mountain bike impact, or even horses, for that matter. This ain't
Yellowstone or Yosemite. Even in a dinky state like MA, the big problem
with public lands seems to be under-utilization, nobody hunts or even
hikes anymore, the fauna is taking over.
  #17  
Old July 14th 11, 11:51 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech,alt.mountain-bike,alt.rec.bicycles.recumbent
SMS
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Posts: 9,477
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On 7/13/2011 12:50 AM, Chalo wrote:

You have demonstrated yourself to the point of absurdity to be an
unreliable and uncorrectable "expert" on this topic. I suggest you
retire from the discussion both here and elsewhere, for your own
benefit. Cooler heads than yours will carry on from here.

Chalo


He's a big fan of junk science, and he obviously hasn't read the volumes
of material by impartial researchers.

The fact is that all the experts agree that horses create far more
damage than cyclists and that hikers and cyclists have similar impact
both to trails and wildlife. There are no reputable studies that show
otherwise, obviously.

It's not zero impact. Vibram soles have impact to trails just as
mountain bike tires do, though in slightly different ways. Similarly, as
far as wildlife impact, horses do far more damage than hikers or
cyclists, but hikers, since they stay in one area for a longer period of
time, are more disruptive of wildlife than a responsible mountain biker.

There's the extremely weak argument that horses are okay because they're
"grandfathered in" while off-road bicycling is only a few decades old,
but of course the "we were here first" argument has no real validity.

Again, one his only supporters in his jihad against bicyclists is an
equestrian who also specializes in selling properties suitable for horse
owners. Obviously she has a vested interest in keeping as many trails
open to horses as possible and as many trails closed to cyclists. You
think she might want to have enlisted someone more knowledgeable in her
efforts since clearly her convicted friend is not helping her cause!


  #18  
Old July 15th 11, 12:18 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech,alt.mountain-bike,alt.rec.bicycles.recumbent
Chalo
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Posts: 5,093
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SMS wrote:

It's not zero impact. Vibram soles have impact to trails just as
mountain bike tires do, though in slightly different ways.


It seems plain that at the same level of intensity (wattage, for lack
of a better unit), a rolling contact by a cyclist will do much less
harm than shuffling contact by a hiker. Likewise, a skidding tire
will inflict much more damage to the surface than footfalls.

So a great deal comes down to style, consideration of the trail and
its environment, and plain old common sense and restraint. For every
cyclist who skids down hills, there are probably a bunch of hikers who
litter, cut across switchbacks, or deposit ordure on the trailside.

And for every one of us in this discussion who has the integrity of
the natural environment at heart, there are probably a crowd of folks
whose idea of outdoors adventure involves gratuitously murdering wild
animals for entertainment, or making a huge amount of motor noise and
pollution.

Chalo
  #19  
Old July 15th 11, 12:36 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech,alt.mountain-bike,alt.rec.bicycles.recumbent
SMS
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 9,477
Default habitat

On 7/14/2011 4:18 PM, Chalo wrote:

And for every one of us in this discussion who has the integrity of
the natural environment at heart, there are probably a crowd of folks
whose idea of outdoors adventure involves gratuitously murdering wild
animals for entertainment, or making a huge amount of motor noise and
pollution.


What's funny-sad is that MV probably does have the integrity of the
natural environment at heart, but he lacks the knowledge and personal
integrity to make a difference for it.
  #20  
Old July 15th 11, 01:06 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech,alt.mountain-bike,alt.rec.bicycles.recumbent
Andre Jute[_2_]
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Posts: 10,422
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On Jul 14, 10:22*pm, AMuzi wrote:
Mike Vandeman wrote:
On Jul 14, 1:02 pm, Peter Cole wrote:
On 7/14/2011 10:48 AM, SMS wrote:


On 7/12/2011 5:08 PM, James wrote:
Horses also leave lots of manure that may contain foreign seeds, and it
is said heavy hooves damage delicate soil structures, in this country.
MV is probably very opposed to horses as well but since one of his only
supporters is a real estate agent that bills herself as a "Horse
Property Specialist," he feels obligated to not publicly oppose them.
This is a shame since if he could be educated to direct his efforts
against the trail users that cause the most damage he would give up on
mountain bikes and concentrate on equestrians.
India has sacred cows, we've got sacred horses. I've ridden horses,
mountain biked and hiked on the same trails. No contest, horses trash
the place, but they're grandfathered in. It's ironic that many of our
local trails have seasonal closures during mud season, but the only
users who are excluded are bikers.


You obviously haven't studied the SCIENCE (REAL science, not the JUNK
science created by mountain bikers). The SCIENCE shows that mountain
bikers have greater impacts on erosion, plants, and animals, partly
because they generally travel several times as FAR and as FAST as
other trail users, multiplying their impacts. (Seehttp://mjvande/nfshost.com/scb7.htm.)
Besides that, horses evolved in North America, and hence arguably have
the right to go wherever they want to. BIKES, on the other hand, and
inanimate OBJECTS, and have no rights whatsoever. And there is no
right to mountain bike (seehttp://mjvande/nfshost.com/mtb10.htm).


http://www.2wheels.co.za/FTP_IMAGES/...02011/OFFROAD2...

--
Andrew Muzi
* www.yellowjersey.org/
* Open every day since 1 April, 1971


%^&*()_ Aliens coming here and creating dongas in our pristine
environment.

A horse wouldn't go down there.

Andre Jute
 




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