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  #11  
Old April 7th 19, 04:09 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
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Posts: 58
Default New Trek Pricing

On Sat, 6 Apr 2019 10:28:07 -0700, "Mark J."
wrote:

On 4/5/2019 5:41 PM, wrote:
On Friday, April 5, 2019 at 5:49:55 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Fri, 5 Apr 2019 12:40:08 -0700 (PDT), "
wrote:

On Friday, April 5, 2019 at 1:16:40 PM UTC-5, wrote:
Trek is now probably making the most advanced and aero bikes on the market but the prices are staggering. This could end up being the end of them since it sort of indicates that their sales are so low they have to raise the prices to retain enough profits to continue on.

Trek is a large enough firm that they have a real engineering staff that really know what they're doing. It would be a shame to lose them.


Trek is simply following the long proven retail strategy used by almost all companies. Just like the automobile companies they have a few high end expensive cars. And many lower priced. They sell a few of the expensive ones and promote them extensively because it improves their image. But they make their money on selling tons of the lower priced models. Take Toyota for example. They make Lexus and sell a few of them. Some are probably up near $100k. But they sell far more of the $40-50k models. And they sell ten times as many regular Toyota Camrys and Corollas and Highlanders. Toyota makes its money from Toyota, not Lexus and not the most expensive Lexus models. I'm sure the profit margin is very high on Lexus and the expensive Lexus. After all they are just a Toyota with leather and gold paint. But the vast majority of the overall profit comes from selling middle and lower priced Toyota cars. And the cheaper Lexus models.

As for losing their engineering staff. I'm pretty sure all the big companies, Specialized, Trek, Giant, Cannondale, all have their bikes made by the exact same 3-4 carbon bike makers in China. They all just call the companies and tell them what to build this year.


I thought that Trek bragged that their bikes were "built in America"?
--
cheers,

John B.


Not for quite a few years now. It used to be their top of the line Madone was made in Wisconsin. But they stopped that 5 years ago or so. Now I only think the Project One special paint color ones are painted in Wisconsin. Frames all made in China for every model.


As a data point, my 2013 CF Trek Domane says "Designed in Waterloo,
Wisconsin" on the seat stays. Pretty sure that tells us it wasn't made
there (or they'd be motivated to say so).

If there was a "made in" sticker, I either missed it or removed it
previously.

Mark J.


There is a law that covers a "Made in U.S.A." statement. From memory
it doesn't mean that the entire thing was made in the U.S. but that
the majority was, or something of that nature.

So the "Designed in Wisconsin" probably means that the design and
specifications were done there and the actual manufacturing done
elsewhere.

Actually this type of design - manufacture process is not uncommon.
Caterpillar, for example, manufacturers several types of their
equipment in Indonesia, Cummins makes several models of their diesel
engines in China, and so on. Both Cat and Cummins give exactly the
same guarantee for the Asian made equipment as they do for the U.S.
made.
--
cheers,

John B.

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  #12  
Old April 8th 19, 12:55 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
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Posts: 2,041
Default New Trek Pricing

On Saturday, April 6, 2019 at 10:09:25 PM UTC-5, wrote:

There is a law that covers a "Made in U.S.A." statement. From memory
it doesn't mean that the entire thing was made in the U.S. but that
the majority was, or something of that nature.

So the "Designed in Wisconsin" probably means that the design and
specifications were done there and the actual manufacturing done
elsewhere.

John B.


I suspect you are right that the "Made In" statements have some kind of percentage qualifications. But also important is what does "Designed in" mean? Can Trek say it was "Designed in Wisconsin" if some assistant copy boy draws a stick figure bike and sends it over to China with the instructions to build it? The bike was designed in USA I guess. 100% made and all the details were figured out by some Chinese company. But it was 100% designed in Wisconsin I guess.
  #13  
Old April 8th 19, 01:52 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
[email protected]
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Posts: 58
Default New Trek Pricing

On Sun, 7 Apr 2019 16:55:34 -0700 (PDT), "
wrote:

On Saturday, April 6, 2019 at 10:09:25 PM UTC-5, wrote:

There is a law that covers a "Made in U.S.A." statement. From memory
it doesn't mean that the entire thing was made in the U.S. but that
the majority was, or something of that nature.

So the "Designed in Wisconsin" probably means that the design and
specifications were done there and the actual manufacturing done
elsewhere.

John B.


I suspect you are right that the "Made In" statements have some kind of percentage

qualifications. But also important is what does "Designed in" mean?
Can Trek say it was "Designed in Wisconsin" if some assistant copy boy
draws a stick figure bike and sends it over to China with the
instructions to build it? The bike was designed in USA I guess. 100%
made and all the details were figured out by some Chinese company. But
it was 100% designed in Wisconsin I guess.

My guess is that the USians calculate the strength, size, etc., of
the various tubes, angles, positions of various attaching devices,
etc. then send it to the makers who come up with the actual lay up
details and then a conference between the two.

My guess is that, assuming Trek works the same as I know Caterpillar
and Cummins do, they have their own quality control people at the
manufacturer's instillation who see to it that the design is followed
exactly. Cat, for example, tests each batch of outside contractor
supplied bolts, that are used in the construction of their equipment.

I happen to know this as we had a lot of problems with some so called
"Cat" bolts we procured in Singapore - got 'em cheap - and they
stretched when we used them :-(
--
cheers,

John B.

  #14  
Old April 8th 19, 01:58 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Jeff Liebermann
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Posts: 4,018
Default New Trek Pricing

On Sun, 07 Apr 2019 10:09:22 +0700, wrote:

There is a law that covers a "Made in U.S.A." statement. From memory
it doesn't mean that the entire thing was made in the U.S. but that
the majority was, or something of that nature.


"Complying with the Made in USA Standard"
https://www.ftc.gov/tips-advice/business-center/guidance/complying-made-usa-standard
Marketers and manufacturers that promote their products as
Made in USA must meet the "all or virtually all" standard.

Note that this document was scribbled in 1998 and is probably in need
of revision.

So the "Designed in Wisconsin" probably means that the design and
specifications were done there and the actual manufacturing done
elsewhere.


https://www.ftc.gov/tips-advice/business-center/guidance/complying-made-usa-standard
Example: A company designs a product in New York City and
sends the blueprint to a factory in Finland for manufacturing.
It labels the product "Designed in USA - Made in Finland."
Such a specific processing claim would not lead a reasonable
consumer to believe that the whole product was made in the
U.S. The Customs Service requires the product to be marked
"Made in," or "Product of" Finland since the product is of
Finnish origin and the claim refers to the U.S.

Actually this type of design - manufacture process is not uncommon.
Caterpillar, for example, manufacturers several types of their
equipment in Indonesia, Cummins makes several models of their diesel
engines in China, and so on. Both Cat and Cummins give exactly the
same guarantee for the Asian made equipment as they do for the U.S.
made.


I would think that Trek should have labeled their bicycles as
"Made in China - Designed in Wisconsin".

"Are Trek Bikes Made in the USA"?
https://allamericanreviews.com/trek/

--
Jeff Liebermann

150 Felker St #D
http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558
  #15  
Old April 8th 19, 03:43 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 58
Default New Trek Pricing

On Sun, 07 Apr 2019 17:58:09 -0700, Jeff Liebermann
wrote:

On Sun, 07 Apr 2019 10:09:22 +0700, wrote:

There is a law that covers a "Made in U.S.A." statement. From memory
it doesn't mean that the entire thing was made in the U.S. but that
the majority was, or something of that nature.


"Complying with the Made in USA Standard"
https://www.ftc.gov/tips-advice/business-center/guidance/complying-made-usa-standard
Marketers and manufacturers that promote their products as
Made in USA must meet the "all or virtually all" standard.

Note that this document was scribbled in 1998 and is probably in need
of revision.

So the "Designed in Wisconsin" probably means that the design and
specifications were done there and the actual manufacturing done
elsewhere.


https://www.ftc.gov/tips-advice/business-center/guidance/complying-made-usa-standard
Example: A company designs a product in New York City and
sends the blueprint to a factory in Finland for manufacturing.
It labels the product "Designed in USA - Made in Finland."
Such a specific processing claim would not lead a reasonable
consumer to believe that the whole product was made in the
U.S. The Customs Service requires the product to be marked
"Made in," or "Product of" Finland since the product is of
Finnish origin and the claim refers to the U.S.

Actually this type of design - manufacture process is not uncommon.
Caterpillar, for example, manufacturers several types of their
equipment in Indonesia, Cummins makes several models of their diesel
engines in China, and so on. Both Cat and Cummins give exactly the
same guarantee for the Asian made equipment as they do for the U.S.
made.


I would think that Trek should have labeled their bicycles as
"Made in China - Designed in Wisconsin".

"Are Trek Bikes Made in the USA"?
https://allamericanreviews.com/trek/


To be honest, in this day and age it makes little sense to manufacture
in the U.S. Given the cost of labor and overhead in the U.S. you can
make the same product in a foreign country much cheaper and if you are
a competent manager of the same quality.

For example, the U.S. minimum salary is now in the $10/hour range I'm
told while in Thailand the minimum salary is 300 baht, about
US$9..60... a day.
--
cheers,

John B.

  #16  
Old April 8th 19, 05:54 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Jeff Liebermann
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 4,018
Default New Trek Pricing

On Mon, 08 Apr 2019 09:43:57 +0700, wrote:

To be honest, in this day and age it makes little sense to manufacture
in the U.S. Given the cost of labor and overhead in the U.S. you can
make the same product in a foreign country much cheaper and if you are
a competent manager of the same quality.


True. We have successfully exported most of our industrial capacity
to foreign countries. In return we get cheap manufactured products.
When we export most of our research and design, the US will cease to
be a major manufacturing nation. Trek can then remove the "Designed
in Wisconsin" sticker.

For example, the U.S. minimum salary is now in the $10/hour range I'm
told while in Thailand the minimum salary is 300 baht, about
US$9..60... a day.


As we slowly blunder towards a world economy, such pay imbalances are
unlikely to continue. Initially, as the standard of living increases
in former counties with currently low labor rates, they will simply
find other 3rd world countries with similarly low labor rates to
exploit. Maybe a few small wars might be needed to equalize the pay
scale. My crystal ball isn't very clear beyond that point.





--
Jeff Liebermann

150 Felker St #D
http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558
  #17  
Old April 8th 19, 07:09 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
jOHN b.
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,421
Default New Trek Pricing

On Sun, 07 Apr 2019 21:54:32 -0700, Jeff Liebermann
wrote:

On Mon, 08 Apr 2019 09:43:57 +0700, wrote:

To be honest, in this day and age it makes little sense to manufacture
in the U.S. Given the cost of labor and overhead in the U.S. you can
make the same product in a foreign country much cheaper and if you are
a competent manager of the same quality.


True. We have successfully exported most of our industrial capacity
to foreign countries. In return we get cheap manufactured products.
When we export most of our research and design, the US will cease to
be a major manufacturing nation. Trek can then remove the "Designed
in Wisconsin" sticker.

For example, the U.S. minimum salary is now in the $10/hour range I'm
told while in Thailand the minimum salary is 300 baht, about
US$9..60... a day.


As we slowly blunder towards a world economy, such pay imbalances are
unlikely to continue. Initially, as the standard of living increases
in former counties with currently low labor rates, they will simply
find other 3rd world countries with similarly low labor rates to
exploit. Maybe a few small wars might be needed to equalize the pay
scale. My crystal ball isn't very clear beyond that point.


Yes, that is correct. In fact one of the popular political parties in
the recent election here was saying that if they got a majority of
the votes they would raise minimum wages by 50%. The Manufacturers
Association said that if the government raised wages by 50% that
manufacturers would move to Myanmar or Cambodia.

It might be noted that Thailand, today, has, essentially, in excess
of 100% employment. There are something like 3 million legal foreign
workers in the country and probably another 1 - 2 million illegal's.

Pay rates, of course, are very dependant on living costs, or perhaps
it is the other way round. When I was first married I used to give my
wife 500 baht (about US$ 25.00 at the time) a month to run the house,
pay the lights and water, etc. Now... I give her about US$775 for the
same purpose. But, when we were first married a bowl of noodles in
soup, a very common dish, was 2 baht (about US$0.10) and today it is
40 baht - US$1.30. Based on noodles the inflation has been 20 times.

As for the term "exploit", it is, from the employee's point of view,
manna from heaven. I remember when a Korean firm, contracted to one of
the athletic shoe companies, opened a new factory in Indonesia. there
was one or two killings in the line waiting for job interviews of
people who tried to force their way into the line instead of waiting
their turn.

Think about that, jobs are so scarce that you could get stabbed simply
by trying to cut into the line waiting for job interviews.
--
cheers,

John B.

  #18  
Old April 8th 19, 03:04 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
AMuzi
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 13,447
Default New Trek Pricing

On 4/7/2019 11:54 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Mon, 08 Apr 2019 09:43:57 +0700, wrote:

To be honest, in this day and age it makes little sense to manufacture
in the U.S. Given the cost of labor and overhead in the U.S. you can
make the same product in a foreign country much cheaper and if you are
a competent manager of the same quality.


True. We have successfully exported most of our industrial capacity
to foreign countries. In return we get cheap manufactured products.
When we export most of our research and design, the US will cease to
be a major manufacturing nation. Trek can then remove the "Designed
in Wisconsin" sticker.

For example, the U.S. minimum salary is now in the $10/hour range I'm
told while in Thailand the minimum salary is 300 baht, about
US$9..60... a day.


As we slowly blunder towards a world economy, such pay imbalances are
unlikely to continue. Initially, as the standard of living increases
in former counties with currently low labor rates, they will simply
find other 3rd world countries with similarly low labor rates to
exploit. Maybe a few small wars might be needed to equalize the pay
scale. My crystal ball isn't very clear beyond that point.






Our US trade magazine just dropped Italy from the quarterly
import report and replaced them with Vietnam (now 10X
Italy's volume).

Meanwhile these guys are a going concern and just extended
their order to ship times by a few weeks:
https://babe.net/2016/08/25/i-tried-...ar-online-4266

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971


  #19  
Old April 8th 19, 03:43 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
AMuzi
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 13,447
Default New Trek Pricing

On 4/8/2019 9:04 AM, AMuzi wrote:
On 4/7/2019 11:54 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Mon, 08 Apr 2019 09:43:57 +0700,
wrote:

To be honest, in this day and age it makes little sense
to manufacture
in the U.S. Given the cost of labor and overhead in the
U.S. you can
make the same product in a foreign country much cheaper
and if you are
a competent manager of the same quality.


True. We have successfully exported most of our
industrial capacity
to foreign countries. In return we get cheap manufactured
products.
When we export most of our research and design, the US
will cease to
be a major manufacturing nation. Trek can then remove the
"Designed
in Wisconsin" sticker.

For example, the U.S. minimum salary is now in the
$10/hour range I'm
told while in Thailand the minimum salary is 300 baht, about
US$9..60... a day.


As we slowly blunder towards a world economy, such pay
imbalances are
unlikely to continue. Initially, as the standard of
living increases
in former counties with currently low labor rates, they
will simply
find other 3rd world countries with similarly low labor
rates to
exploit. Maybe a few small wars might be needed to
equalize the pay
scale. My crystal ball isn't very clear beyond that point.






Our US trade magazine just dropped Italy from the quarterly
import report and replaced them with Vietnam (now 10X
Italy's volume).

Meanwhile these guys are a going concern and just extended
their order to ship times by a few weeks:


dammit here's the actual link
https://waterfordbikes.com/


--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971


  #20  
Old April 8th 19, 04:19 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Ralph Barone[_4_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 853
Default New Trek Pricing

AMuzi wrote:
On 4/8/2019 9:04 AM, AMuzi wrote:
On 4/7/2019 11:54 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Mon, 08 Apr 2019 09:43:57 +0700,
wrote:

To be honest, in this day and age it makes little sense
to manufacture
in the U.S. Given the cost of labor and overhead in the
U.S. you can
make the same product in a foreign country much cheaper
and if you are
a competent manager of the same quality.

True. We have successfully exported most of our
industrial capacity
to foreign countries. In return we get cheap manufactured
products.
When we export most of our research and design, the US
will cease to
be a major manufacturing nation. Trek can then remove the
"Designed
in Wisconsin" sticker.

For example, the U.S. minimum salary is now in the
$10/hour range I'm
told while in Thailand the minimum salary is 300 baht, about
US$9..60... a day.

As we slowly blunder towards a world economy, such pay
imbalances are
unlikely to continue. Initially, as the standard of
living increases
in former counties with currently low labor rates, they
will simply
find other 3rd world countries with similarly low labor
rates to
exploit. Maybe a few small wars might be needed to
equalize the pay
scale. My crystal ball isn't very clear beyond that point.






Our US trade magazine just dropped Italy from the quarterly
import report and replaced them with Vietnam (now 10X
Italy's volume).

Meanwhile these guys are a going concern and just extended
their order to ship times by a few weeks:


dammit here's the actual link
https://waterfordbikes.com/



The other link you posted was also educational on market realities.

 




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