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Making "protected" bike lanes safe



 
 
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  #11  
Old April 11th 19, 04:37 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
SMS
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Posts: 9,477
Default Making "protected" bike lanes safe

On 4/10/2019 12:49 AM, Chalo wrote:
It's all folly until we ban cars from areas where there are cyclists and peds present.


Protected bike lanes are about increasing safety, but that's not the
only reason for them.

In my city, we had a high school student killed who would still be here
today if there had been a protected bike lane so the truck that the
cyclist and the truck would have been physically separated.

The other big issue that cities face is cars, and other vehicles using
unprotected bike lanes for various other purposes. Passing on the right.
Drifting into the bike lane. Deliveries. Pick-up and drop-off. Pulling
over a driver to give them a traffic ticket. Turn on your emergency
flashers and the whole world's a parking space. Stick a cone behind a
delivery or service vehicle and you're good to park there for a long time.

If we want to increase the percentages of cyclists we have to increase
both actual safety and the perception of safety. Just putting protected
bike lanes in areas where there are the most conflicts is probably
sufficient. The other issue is at intersections you need to bring the
bicycles and pedestrians closer together to avoid right hooks (or left
hooks in left-drive countries).

There are other issues to consider as well, how do you do street
cleaning? How do you pick up garbage in areas where the trash cans need
to be by the curb?
Ads
  #12  
Old April 11th 19, 05:16 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
jOHN b.
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,421
Default Making "protected" bike lanes safe

On Wed, 10 Apr 2019 20:36:42 -0700 (PDT), "
wrote:

On Wednesday, April 10, 2019 at 6:48:01 PM UTC-5, John B. wrote:
On Wed, 10 Apr 2019 10:40:28 -0700 (PDT), Sir Ridesalot
wrote:

On Wednesday, April 10, 2019 at 1:01:00 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Tuesday, April 9, 2019 at 11:39:10 AM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
For six or seven years, the loudest and best financed bike lobbying organizations
have been saying we need "protected" bike lanes everywhere. They say it's
obviously inadequate to have just a paint stripe separating bikes from cars; we
need at _least_ posts, and preferably a line of parked cars. You know, so the
bicyclists are totally hidden from motorists until the motorist crosses the bike
lane to access a street or driveway.

Segregation skeptics have been saying for just as long that the "protection"
vanishes precisely where the conflicts are worse. And the design adds new
surprises to traffic interactions. Surprises in traffic are NOT good.

And there have been crashes, just as predicted. A mile of "protected" bike lane
put in Columbus, Ohio a few years ago went from 1.5 car-bike crashes per year
to 13 crashes (IIRC) in the year it was installed.

And here's the latest one: https://sf.streetsblog.org/2019/04/0...e-mixing-zone/

The solution? "Protected" intersections everywhere! https://vimeo.com/86721046

I haven't seen any cost estimates for this new cycling nirvana. That would be
interesting.

- Frank Krygowski

Bike lanes have sufficient "protection" by lines on the street. In many places you have broken glass in the lane and you have to pull out into the full lane. Yesterday there were heavy gusting winds and on the downhills I had to use the entire lane to be able to retain full control.

The problem with far too many painted strip bike lanes is that they put the bicyclist smack dab in the door zone of parked cars. I've seen bike lanes that go partway onto the on ramp of a 100 kph 60 mph highway where bicycles are NOT permitted. The problem is that any motorist using such an on ramp does NOT expect to see a bicyclist there. I use the through traffic lane in those areas and ignore the painted bicycle lane entirely.

That's also not to mention painted bicycle lanes that end suddenly especially those that do it on a downhill.

Cheers


Perhaps the solution is to go the other way and build motor vehicle
only lanes. This would do essentially the same thing as the bicycle
only lanes of separating the big fierce motor vehicles from the small
meek bicycles.
--
cheers,

John B.


Oh, you're not an American obviously. If you were from the USA you would know that Interstates are only for motor vehicles. Bicycles are not allowed on Interstates.


Well, I've got a U.S. passport, or aren't USians considered
"Americans" these days?

And Yes, I do know about "Interstate" highways and we have generally
the same thing here, 6 or 8 lane highways with limited, in the sense
that there aren't many, access but here they can be used by anyone.
Then we have "toll Roads" which are normally restricted to 4 or more
wheel vehicles.

Interestingly the "toll roads" all parallel main multi-lane highways
and simply allow a somewhat less crowded, and usually faster, path.

--
cheers,

John B.

  #13  
Old April 11th 19, 05:17 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
JBeattie
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5,870
Default Making "protected" bike lanes safe

On Wednesday, April 10, 2019 at 8:37:32 PM UTC-7, sms wrote:
On 4/10/2019 12:49 AM, Chalo wrote:
It's all folly until we ban cars from areas where there are cyclists and peds present.


Protected bike lanes are about increasing safety, but that's not the
only reason for them.

In my city, we had a high school student killed who would still be here
today if there had been a protected bike lane so the truck that the
cyclist and the truck would have been physically separated.

The other big issue that cities face is cars, and other vehicles using
unprotected bike lanes for various other purposes. Passing on the right.
Drifting into the bike lane. Deliveries. Pick-up and drop-off. Pulling
over a driver to give them a traffic ticket. Turn on your emergency
flashers and the whole world's a parking space. Stick a cone behind a
delivery or service vehicle and you're good to park there for a long time..

If we want to increase the percentages of cyclists we have to increase
both actual safety and the perception of safety. Just putting protected
bike lanes in areas where there are the most conflicts is probably
sufficient. The other issue is at intersections you need to bring the
bicycles and pedestrians closer together to avoid right hooks (or left
hooks in left-drive countries).

There are other issues to consider as well, how do you do street
cleaning? How do you pick up garbage in areas where the trash cans need
to be by the curb?


And where does it end, and at what public expense? https://i.pinimg.com/originals/f6/63...568b113132.jpg And what is the net benefit to cyclists? Segregated facilities can be a nightmare with high traffic volumes -- apart from the cleaning issues.

What I never understood about the SCV was why people weren't riding back when I commuted everywhere in the '70s and early '80s. I didn't even own a car for most of that time. Sunny weather, wide streets, moderate traffic volumes -- probably way better than now, and nobody rode to work. I assume ridership has increased and that the cities can justify the expense of special facilities.

-- Jay Beattie.



  #14  
Old April 11th 19, 05:24 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
jOHN b.
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,421
Default Making "protected" bike lanes safe

On Wed, 10 Apr 2019 20:37:26 -0700, sms
wrote:

On 4/10/2019 12:49 AM, Chalo wrote:
It's all folly until we ban cars from areas where there are cyclists and peds present.


Protected bike lanes are about increasing safety, but that's not the
only reason for them.

In my city, we had a high school student killed who would still be here
today if there had been a protected bike lane so the truck that the
cyclist and the truck would have been physically separated.


I find it strange that you would say such a thing as I ride in Bangkok
with such chaotic traffic that most foreigners visiting the country
are quite literally afraid to drive here and we have no such thing as
a protected bike lane. And yet in the 20 or so years that I've ridden
a bicycle here I have yet to have what one might call a "close call".
Perhaps because I am careful to obey traffic regulations and watch
what is happening around me.

The other big issue that cities face is cars, and other vehicles using
unprotected bike lanes for various other purposes. Passing on the right.
Drifting into the bike lane. Deliveries. Pick-up and drop-off. Pulling
over a driver to give them a traffic ticket. Turn on your emergency
flashers and the whole world's a parking space. Stick a cone behind a
delivery or service vehicle and you're good to park there for a long time.

If we want to increase the percentages of cyclists we have to increase
both actual safety and the perception of safety. Just putting protected
bike lanes in areas where there are the most conflicts is probably
sufficient. The other issue is at intersections you need to bring the
bicycles and pedestrians closer together to avoid right hooks (or left
hooks in left-drive countries).

There are other issues to consider as well, how do you do street
cleaning? How do you pick up garbage in areas where the trash cans need
to be by the curb?

--
cheers,

John B.

  #15  
Old April 11th 19, 08:38 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Rolf Mantel[_2_]
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Posts: 267
Default Making "protected" bike lanes safe

Am 11.04.2019 um 05:37 schrieb sms:
In my city, we had a high school student killed who would still be here
today if there had been a protected bike lane so the truck that the
cyclist and the truck would have been physically separated.


If you wish to physically separate trucks and bicycles everywhere, you
have two options: either ban trucks from your city or ban bicycles from
your city.

In reality, you need crossings where the trucks and the bicycles cross
each other's path.

In Germany, we have so many unexperienced cyclists killed by trucks at
junctions exactly due to the protected bike paths:

Without a bike path or bike lane, the cyclists would be behind or in
front of a right-turning truck. Due to the bike path, the cyclist rides
to the right of a truck standing at the traffic lights without the truck
driver noticing.
Even if the cyclist stops at the last second when he sees the truck
turning, the trailer rolls over him (the trailer takes a sharper curve
than the cabin of the truck).

Germany has 3,200 accidents of this type per year, with 70 dead and 660
injured bicyclists; great advantage of having protected bike paths at
the side of almost every road in most cities.

  #16  
Old April 11th 19, 12:29 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
AK[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 226
Default Making "protected" bike lanes safe

On Wednesday, April 10, 2019 at 10:37:32 PM UTC-5, sms wrote:
On 4/10/2019 12:49 AM, Chalo wrote:
It's all folly until we ban cars from areas where there are cyclists and peds present.


Protected bike lanes are about increasing safety, but that's not the
only reason for them.

In my city, we had a high school student killed who would still be here
today if there had been a protected bike lane so the truck that the
cyclist and the truck would have been physically separated.

The other big issue that cities face is cars, and other vehicles using
unprotected bike lanes for various other purposes. Passing on the right.
Drifting into the bike lane. Deliveries. Pick-up and drop-off. Pulling
over a driver to give them a traffic ticket. Turn on your emergency
flashers and the whole world's a parking space. Stick a cone behind a
delivery or service vehicle and you're good to park there for a long time.

If we want to increase the percentages of cyclists we have to increase
both actual safety and the perception of safety. Just putting protected
bike lanes in areas where there are the most conflicts is probably
sufficient. The other issue is at intersections you need to bring the
bicycles and pedestrians closer together to avoid right hooks (or left
hooks in left-drive countries).

There are other issues to consider as well, how do you do street
cleaning? How do you pick up garbage in areas where the trash cans need
to be by the curb?


Good point about the street cleaning. Bike lanes accumulate trash and glass quickly.

Andy

I keep hoping I will see some bills in it sometimes. :-)
  #17  
Old April 11th 19, 02:33 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
AMuzi
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 13,447
Default Making "protected" bike lanes safe

On 4/10/2019 10:33 PM, John B. wrote:
On Wed, 10 Apr 2019 21:25:24 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 4/10/2019 8:04 PM, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Wednesday, April 10, 2019 at 7:48:01 PM UTC-4, John B. wrote:
On Wed, 10 Apr 2019 10:40:28 -0700 (PDT), Sir Ridesalot
wrote:

On Wednesday, April 10, 2019 at 1:01:00 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Tuesday, April 9, 2019 at 11:39:10 AM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
For six or seven years, the loudest and best financed bike lobbying organizations
have been saying we need "protected" bike lanes everywhere. They say it's
obviously inadequate to have just a paint stripe separating bikes from cars; we
need at _least_ posts, and preferably a line of parked cars. You know, so the
bicyclists are totally hidden from motorists until the motorist crosses the bike
lane to access a street or driveway.

Segregation skeptics have been saying for just as long that the "protection"
vanishes precisely where the conflicts are worse. And the design adds new
surprises to traffic interactions. Surprises in traffic are NOT good.

And there have been crashes, just as predicted. A mile of "protected" bike lane
put in Columbus, Ohio a few years ago went from 1.5 car-bike crashes per year
to 13 crashes (IIRC) in the year it was installed.

And here's the latest one: https://sf.streetsblog.org/2019/04/0...e-mixing-zone/

The solution? "Protected" intersections everywhere! https://vimeo.com/86721046

I haven't seen any cost estimates for this new cycling nirvana. That would be
interesting.

- Frank Krygowski

Bike lanes have sufficient "protection" by lines on the street. In many places you have broken glass in the lane and you have to pull out into the full lane. Yesterday there were heavy gusting winds and on the downhills I had to use the entire lane to be able to retain full control.

The problem with far too many painted strip bike lanes is that they put the bicyclist smack dab in the door zone of parked cars. I've seen bike lanes that go partway onto the on ramp of a 100 kph 60 mph highway where bicycles are NOT permitted. The problem is that any motorist using such an on ramp does NOT expect to see a bicyclist there. I use the through traffic lane in those areas and ignore the painted bicycle lane entirely.

That's also not to mention painted bicycle lanes that end suddenly especially those that do it on a downhill.

Cheers

Perhaps the solution is to go the other way and build motor vehicle
only lanes. This would do essentially the same thing as the bicycle
only lanes of separating the big fierce motor vehicles from the small
meek bicycles.
--
cheers,

John B.

Or just let the bicycles share the lane with the motor vehicles?


It's legal here. It's what I do. It works. Remember, I'm the guy who
doesn't have cars cut across my path, despite the lack of magic DRLs.


Well, I had supposed that building bike lanes was actually beneficial
to the cyclist. Otherwise why would your duly elected leaders build
them? Rather like the great Wall of America that your leader is intent
on building will make the U.S. safe from those poor misbegotten people
in South America.

Strangely we don't have those things here and I don't find it
difficult to ride here :-) In fact, as I have written, the only time I
have felt in real danger was when I ran a stop sign and someone was
coming the other way. It was a three way cross and I didn't see anyone
so just kept going.... I hadn't noticed a pickup which came over the
brow of a little rise. I went off the road (very quickly) and crashed
in a bed of nettles :-)


Don't be obtuse. Nearly everyone here likes immigrants, who
are not the same as illegal entries. Even loopy-left Trudeau
understand that problem:
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-47874012

Perhaps he noticed that Viktor Orban just won his 4th election.


--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971


  #18  
Old April 11th 19, 02:44 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Rolf Mantel[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 267
Default Making "protected" bike lanes safe

Am 11.04.2019 um 15:33 schrieb AMuzi:
Perhaps he noticed that Viktor Orban just won his 4th election.


Which is not difficult after changing the electoral rules to his benefit.
  #19  
Old April 11th 19, 03:21 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,261
Default Making "protected" bike lanes safe

On Wednesday, April 10, 2019 at 10:40:30 AM UTC-7, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Wednesday, April 10, 2019 at 1:01:00 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Tuesday, April 9, 2019 at 11:39:10 AM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
For six or seven years, the loudest and best financed bike lobbying organizations
have been saying we need "protected" bike lanes everywhere. They say it's
obviously inadequate to have just a paint stripe separating bikes from cars; we
need at _least_ posts, and preferably a line of parked cars. You know, so the
bicyclists are totally hidden from motorists until the motorist crosses the bike
lane to access a street or driveway.

Segregation skeptics have been saying for just as long that the "protection"
vanishes precisely where the conflicts are worse. And the design adds new
surprises to traffic interactions. Surprises in traffic are NOT good.

And there have been crashes, just as predicted. A mile of "protected" bike lane
put in Columbus, Ohio a few years ago went from 1.5 car-bike crashes per year
to 13 crashes (IIRC) in the year it was installed.

And here's the latest one: https://sf.streetsblog.org/2019/04/0...e-mixing-zone/

The solution? "Protected" intersections everywhere! https://vimeo.com/86721046

I haven't seen any cost estimates for this new cycling nirvana. That would be
interesting.

- Frank Krygowski


Bike lanes have sufficient "protection" by lines on the street. In many places you have broken glass in the lane and you have to pull out into the full lane. Yesterday there were heavy gusting winds and on the downhills I had to use the entire lane to be able to retain full control.


The problem with far too many painted strip bike lanes is that they put the bicyclist smack dab in the door zone of parked cars. I've seen bike lanes that go partway onto the on ramp of a 100 kph 60 mph highway where bicycles are NOT permitted. The problem is that any motorist using such an on ramp does NOT expect to see a bicyclist there. I use the through traffic lane in those areas and ignore the painted bicycle lane entirely.

That's also not to mention painted bicycle lanes that end suddenly especially those that do it on a downhill.

Cheers



Bike lanes should be constructed so that they are wider than a car door opens from the parking lane. And riders should be bright enough to ride on the outside part of the bike lane. No system is perfect and the idea is to share the road. MOST of the problems would disappear if the driving laws were EVER enforced. It is so rare that I see any tickets being written and so common that absolutely moronic things are being done by drivers that it is pretty clear that even if they get a ticket the punishment is nil.
  #20  
Old April 11th 19, 03:25 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,261
Default Making "protected" bike lanes safe

On Wednesday, April 10, 2019 at 6:25:28 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 4/10/2019 8:04 PM, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Wednesday, April 10, 2019 at 7:48:01 PM UTC-4, John B. wrote:
On Wed, 10 Apr 2019 10:40:28 -0700 (PDT), Sir Ridesalot
wrote:

On Wednesday, April 10, 2019 at 1:01:00 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Tuesday, April 9, 2019 at 11:39:10 AM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
For six or seven years, the loudest and best financed bike lobbying organizations
have been saying we need "protected" bike lanes everywhere. They say it's
obviously inadequate to have just a paint stripe separating bikes from cars; we
need at _least_ posts, and preferably a line of parked cars. You know, so the
bicyclists are totally hidden from motorists until the motorist crosses the bike
lane to access a street or driveway.

Segregation skeptics have been saying for just as long that the "protection"
vanishes precisely where the conflicts are worse. And the design adds new
surprises to traffic interactions. Surprises in traffic are NOT good.

And there have been crashes, just as predicted. A mile of "protected" bike lane
put in Columbus, Ohio a few years ago went from 1.5 car-bike crashes per year
to 13 crashes (IIRC) in the year it was installed.

And here's the latest one: https://sf.streetsblog.org/2019/04/0...e-mixing-zone/

The solution? "Protected" intersections everywhere! https://vimeo.com/86721046

I haven't seen any cost estimates for this new cycling nirvana. That would be
interesting.

- Frank Krygowski

Bike lanes have sufficient "protection" by lines on the street. In many places you have broken glass in the lane and you have to pull out into the full lane. Yesterday there were heavy gusting winds and on the downhills I had to use the entire lane to be able to retain full control.

The problem with far too many painted strip bike lanes is that they put the bicyclist smack dab in the door zone of parked cars. I've seen bike lanes that go partway onto the on ramp of a 100 kph 60 mph highway where bicycles are NOT permitted. The problem is that any motorist using such an on ramp does NOT expect to see a bicyclist there. I use the through traffic lane in those areas and ignore the painted bicycle lane entirely.

That's also not to mention painted bicycle lanes that end suddenly especially those that do it on a downhill.

Cheers

Perhaps the solution is to go the other way and build motor vehicle
only lanes. This would do essentially the same thing as the bicycle
only lanes of separating the big fierce motor vehicles from the small
meek bicycles.
--
cheers,

John B.


Or just let the bicycles share the lane with the motor vehicles?


It's legal here. It's what I do. It works. Remember, I'm the guy who
doesn't have cars cut across my path, despite the lack of magic DRLs.


--
- Frank Krygowski


I was topping a hill and accelerated to about 20 mph to ride down the other side into the city and a man in the left turn lane with his left turn signal on turned RIGHT directly in front of me without even looking. This is a California driver. Hispanic young men in those older square Honda's that sound like hot rods are blasting off of stop signs without looking left or right. Women, especially Hispanic and Asian women, in HUGE SUV's are speeding on city streets.

The danger to cyclists aren't cars, but people that are simply breaking the motor vehicle laws with impunity.
 




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