Effects of too much cycling

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2...aign=editorial

On Wed, 19 Jul 2017 06:58:09 -0700 (PDT), Andy
wrote:

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2...aign=editorial


Excess vascular or extremely low body fat?
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Thu, 20 Jul 2017 06:59:50 +0700, John B.
wrote:

On Wed, 19 Jul 2017 06:58:09 -0700 (PDT), Andy
wrote:

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2...aign=editorial

Excess vascular or extremely low body fat?

Insufficient vascular. If there's muscle tissue death (muscle fiber
necrosis) then I would guess something is blocking the blood flow
possibly due to inflamation. This is nothing new as it's been a
problem with marathon runners and other extreme sports:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/6854349

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/564x/87/55/29/8755297b666d33d026c4b6ee9c8b9b3f.jpg

--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

On Wed, 19 Jul 2017 19:52:19 -0700, Jeff Liebermann
wrote:

On Thu, 20 Jul 2017 06:59:50 +0700, John B.
wrote:

On Wed, 19 Jul 2017 06:58:09 -0700 (PDT), Andy
wrote:

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2...aign=editorial

Excess vascular or extremely low body fat?

Insufficient vascular. If there's muscle tissue death (muscle fiber
necrosis) then I would guess something is blocking the blood flow
possibly due to inflamation. This is nothing new as it's been a
problem with marathon runners and other extreme sports:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/6854349

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/564x/87/55/29/8755297b666d33d026c4b6ee9c8b9b3f.jpg

I'm not so sure. Not about muscle tissue breakdown ( a common cause of
aches and pains the day after) but whether it causes the rather
extreme vascularity shown in the referenced is doubtful. In fact the
common effect of hard leg use is Deep Vein Thrombosis (DVT) but that
is not caused, specifically, by muscle tissue breakdown.

See
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:V...ntestShape.jpg
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:R...-_2009_-_5.png
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Frank_Zane.jpg
or even
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vascularity

All of these photos would have been taken when the subject had reduced
his body fat to very low levels for competitions.

The photo of the Polish(?) rider's legs looks rather radical but the
same thing is apparently fairly common among state bicycle racers as
looking a selection taken during the TdeF shows, particularly arms,
with similar vascularity.
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Thu, 20 Jul 2017 13:26:17 +0700, John B.
wrote:

On Wed, 19 Jul 2017 19:52:19 -0700, Jeff Liebermann
wrote:

On Thu, 20 Jul 2017 06:59:50 +0700, John B.
wrote:

On Wed, 19 Jul 2017 06:58:09 -0700 (PDT), Andy
wrote:

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2...aign=editorial

Excess vascular or extremely low body fat?

Insufficient vascular. If there's muscle tissue death (muscle fiber
necrosis) then I would guess something is blocking the blood flow
possibly due to inflamation. This is nothing new as it's been a
problem with marathon runners and other extreme sports:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/6854349

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/564x/87/55/29/8755297b666d33d026c4b6ee9c8b9b3f.jpg

I'm not so sure. Not about muscle tissue breakdown ( a common cause of
aches and pains the day after) but whether it causes the rather
extreme vascularity shown in the referenced is doubtful. In fact the
common effect of hard leg use is Deep Vein Thrombosis (DVT) but that
is not caused, specifically, by muscle tissue breakdown.

See
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:V...ntestShape.jpg
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:R...-_2009_-_5.png
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Frank_Zane.jpg
or even
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vascularity

All of these photos would have been taken when the subject had reduced
his body fat to very low levels for competitions.

The photo of the Polish(?) rider's legs looks rather radical but the
same thing is apparently fairly common among state bicycle racers as
looking a selection taken during the TdeF shows, particularly arms,
with similar vascularity.

According to:
https://www.uptodate.com/contents/ca...rhabdomyolysis.
One of the causes is:
- Nontraumatic exertional (eg, marked exertion in untrained
individuals, hyperthermia, or metabolic myopathies)

which goes on to mention that the cause might be "untrained",
potassium loss, impaired sweating, etc. There's mention of lack of
blood flow as:
Potassium release from muscle cells during exercise normally
mediates vasodilation and the appropriately increased blood
flow to muscles. Decreased potassium release due to profound
hypokalemia (serum potassium less than 2.5 mEq/L) may promote
the development of rhabdomyolysis by decreasing blood flow
to muscles in response to exertion.

You might be close with the fat/weight loss theory as it mentions some
of the drugs used for weight loss can cause muscle breakdown. Too
much to quote, so please see the section starting with:
Dietary supplements used for weight loss...
I think these might be implicated in the spin trainer incident but I'm
guessing here.

If I had to choose between these two, I would guess the lack of blood
flow due to how rapidly muscles turned to mush. The enlargement of
blood vessels in some atheletes legs seem to be a response to the body
needing more blood flow.

Interestingly, statins are mentioned as a possible culprit. I had
version of the rhabdomyolysis problem with some back muscle damage due
prolonged (9 years) statin use. When I finally stopped taking
statins, it took about 1.5 years for the back pains to mostly
disappear. Who knows what pills and suppliments the various victims
were taking?





--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

On Thu, 20 Jul 2017 10:55:09 -0700, Jeff Liebermann
wrote:

On Thu, 20 Jul 2017 13:26:17 +0700, John B.
wrote:

On Wed, 19 Jul 2017 19:52:19 -0700, Jeff Liebermann
wrote:

On Thu, 20 Jul 2017 06:59:50 +0700, John B.
wrote:

On Wed, 19 Jul 2017 06:58:09 -0700 (PDT), Andy
wrote:

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2...aign=editorial

Excess vascular or extremely low body fat?

Insufficient vascular. If there's muscle tissue death (muscle fiber
necrosis) then I would guess something is blocking the blood flow
possibly due to inflamation. This is nothing new as it's been a
problem with marathon runners and other extreme sports:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/6854349

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/564x/87/55/29/8755297b666d33d026c4b6ee9c8b9b3f.jpg

I'm not so sure. Not about muscle tissue breakdown ( a common cause of
aches and pains the day after) but whether it causes the rather
extreme vascularity shown in the referenced is doubtful. In fact the
common effect of hard leg use is Deep Vein Thrombosis (DVT) but that
is not caused, specifically, by muscle tissue breakdown.

See
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:V...ntestShape.jpg
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:R...-_2009_-_5.png
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Frank_Zane.jpg
or even
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vascularity

All of these photos would have been taken when the subject had reduced
his body fat to very low levels for competitions.

The photo of the Polish(?) rider's legs looks rather radical but the
same thing is apparently fairly common among state bicycle racers as
looking a selection taken during the TdeF shows, particularly arms,
with similar vascularity.

According to:
https://www.uptodate.com/contents/ca...rhabdomyolysis.
One of the causes is:
- Nontraumatic exertional (eg, marked exertion in untrained
individuals, hyperthermia, or metabolic myopathies)

which goes on to mention that the cause might be "untrained",
potassium loss, impaired sweating, etc. There's mention of lack of
blood flow as:
Potassium release from muscle cells during exercise normally
mediates vasodilation and the appropriately increased blood
flow to muscles. Decreased potassium release due to profound
hypokalemia (serum potassium less than 2.5 mEq/L) may promote
the development of rhabdomyolysis by decreasing blood flow
to muscles in response to exertion.

You might be close with the fat/weight loss theory as it mentions some
of the drugs used for weight loss can cause muscle breakdown. Too
much to quote, so please see the section starting with:
Dietary supplements used for weight loss...
I think these might be implicated in the spin trainer incident but I'm
guessing here.

If I had to choose between these two, I would guess the lack of blood
flow due to how rapidly muscles turned to mush. The enlargement of
blood vessels in some atheletes legs seem to be a response to the body
needing more blood flow.

Rhabdomyolysis:
The "classic triad" of rhabdomyolysis symptoms a muscle pain in the
shoulders, thighs, or lower back; muscle weakness or trouble moving
arms and legs; and dark red or brown urine or decreased urination.

No mention of enlarged veins and arteries.

Interestingly, statins are mentioned as a possible culprit. I had
version of the rhabdomyolysis problem with some back muscle damage due
prolonged (9 years) statin use. When I finally stopped taking
statins, it took about 1.5 years for the back pains to mostly
disappear. Who knows what pills and suppliments the various victims
were taking?

A great many medicines have side effects, some of them fatal. Aspirin,
for example, can cause internal bleeding.
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Fri, 21 Jul 2017 07:57:33 +0700, John B.
wrote:

No mention of enlarged veins and arteries.

Maybe, but there's also no mention of insufficient body fat. Could be
we're both wrong. A bit mo

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3940504/
See: "Excessive muscular activity".
and: "Investigations for underlying cause".
There's too much to quote.

This is also interesting:
There is a large variety of causes for rhabdomyolysis, all
leading to muscle ischemia and cell breakdown. The most
common among adult populations are muscle exertion, illicit
drugs, alcohol abuse, medications, muscle diseases,
trauma, Neuroleptic Malignant Syndrome (NMS), seizures
and immobility.

So, in order from the most likely, we have muscle exertion (exercise),
illegal drugs, booze, legal drugs, and so on as the likely causes. Or,
it might be a combination of two of these, such as exertion and drugs.
Some of the other PubMed articles mention something about "exercise
intolerance and exercise induced rhabdomyolisis" but are well above my
ability to decode the medical technobabble.

The reason I mentioned statins is that they are among the most
prescribed and best selling drugs. #2 is Crestor (rosuvastatin):
http://www.webmd.com/drug-medication/news/20150508/most-prescribed-top-selling-drugs
From personal experience with Lovastatin, Simvastatin, and
Atorvastatin, I know that they all can cause muscle pain and damage.
Combined with excessive exertion, I suspect the combination can do
real damage. All that statins had warnings that use might cause
rhabdomyolysis but there was no connection to excessive exercise
mentioned.
http://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/high-blood-cholesterol/expert-answers/rhabdomyolysis/faq-20057817


--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

On Thu, 20 Jul 2017 20:45:54 -0700, Jeff Liebermann
wrote:

On Fri, 21 Jul 2017 07:57:33 +0700, John B.
wrote:

No mention of enlarged veins and arteries.

Maybe, but there's also no mention of insufficient body fat. Could be
we're both wrong. A bit mo

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3940504/
See: "Excessive muscular activity".
and: "Investigations for underlying cause".
There's too much to quote.

This is also interesting:
There is a large variety of causes for rhabdomyolysis, all
leading to muscle ischemia and cell breakdown. The most
common among adult populations are muscle exertion, illicit
drugs, alcohol abuse, medications, muscle diseases,
trauma, Neuroleptic Malignant Syndrome (NMS), seizures
and immobility.

So, in order from the most likely, we have muscle exertion (exercise),
illegal drugs, booze, legal drugs, and so on as the likely causes. Or,
it might be a combination of two of these, such as exertion and drugs.
Some of the other PubMed articles mention something about "exercise
intolerance and exercise induced rhabdomyolisis" but are well above my
ability to decode the medical technobabble.

The reason I mentioned statins is that they are among the most
prescribed and best selling drugs. #2 is Crestor (rosuvastatin):
http://www.webmd.com/drug-medication/news/20150508/most-prescribed-top-selling-drugs
From personal experience with Lovastatin, Simvastatin, and
Atorvastatin, I know that they all can cause muscle pain and damage.
Combined with excessive exertion, I suspect the combination can do
real damage. All that statins had warnings that use might cause
rhabdomyolysis but there was no connection to excessive exercise
mentioned.
http://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/high-blood-cholesterol/expert-answers/rhabdomyolysis/faq-20057817

Re the various "statins", like many other modern medicines (and some
very old ones) they may be a hazard to health so the question is which
may be the greatest hazard the fat in the pipes or the medicine. I see
my cardiologist quarterly and that includes a blood test to be sure
that none of the three medicines, two - hypertension, one for
cholesterol, I take are causing problems.

As an aside, aspirin, after an estimated 2500 years of use is now
considered almost poisonous :-)
--
Cheers,

John b

On Friday, July 21, 2017 at 2:03:33 AM UTC-7, Jon B. Slocomb wrote:
On Thu, 20 Jul 2017 20:45:54 -0700, Jeff Liebermann
wrote:

On Fri, 21 Jul 2017 07:57:33 +0700, John B.
wrote:

No mention of enlarged veins and arteries.

Maybe, but there's also no mention of insufficient body fat. Could be
we're both wrong. A bit mo

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3940504/
See: "Excessive muscular activity".
and: "Investigations for underlying cause".
There's too much to quote.

This is also interesting:
There is a large variety of causes for rhabdomyolysis, all
leading to muscle ischemia and cell breakdown. The most
common among adult populations are muscle exertion, illicit
drugs, alcohol abuse, medications, muscle diseases,
trauma, Neuroleptic Malignant Syndrome (NMS), seizures
and immobility.

So, in order from the most likely, we have muscle exertion (exercise),
illegal drugs, booze, legal drugs, and so on as the likely causes. Or,
it might be a combination of two of these, such as exertion and drugs.
Some of the other PubMed articles mention something about "exercise
intolerance and exercise induced rhabdomyolisis" but are well above my
ability to decode the medical technobabble.

The reason I mentioned statins is that they are among the most
prescribed and best selling drugs. #2 is Crestor (rosuvastatin):
http://www.webmd.com/drug-medication/news/20150508/most-prescribed-top-selling-drugs
From personal experience with Lovastatin, Simvastatin, and
Atorvastatin, I know that they all can cause muscle pain and damage.
Combined with excessive exertion, I suspect the combination can do
real damage. All that statins had warnings that use might cause
rhabdomyolysis but there was no connection to excessive exercise
mentioned.
http://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/high-blood-cholesterol/expert-answers/rhabdomyolysis/faq-20057817

Re the various "statins", like many other modern medicines (and some
very old ones) they may be a hazard to health so the question is which
may be the greatest hazard the fat in the pipes or the medicine. I see
my cardiologist quarterly and that includes a blood test to be sure
that none of the three medicines, two - hypertension, one for
cholesterol, I take are causing problems.

As an aside, aspirin, after an estimated 2500 years of use is now
considered almost poisonous :-)
--
Cheers,

John b

"Conservative calculations estimate that approximately 107,000 patients are hospitalized annually for nonsteroidal anti-inflammatory drug (NSAID)-related gastrointestinal (GI) complications and at least 16,500 NSAID-related deaths occur each year among arthritis patients alone." (Singh Gurkirpal, MD, “Recent Considerations in Nonsteroidal Anti-Inflammatory Drug Gastropathy�, The American Journal of Medicine, July 27, 1998, p. 31S)

On Fri, 21 Jul 2017 16:03:28 +0700, Jon B. Slocomb
wrote:

Re the various "statins", like many other modern medicines (and some
very old ones) they may be a hazard to health so the question is which
may be the greatest hazard the fat in the pipes or the medicine.

That was my problem. I've been to 3 cardiologists, have had a triple
bypass operation, and had 2 stents installed last year. I tend to
collect plaque in the arteries and most of my ancestors have died from
either a heart attack or stroke. (Choose your parents wisely).
Chances are high that I will drop dead writing this message.

The cardiologists all agree that I need to do everything possible to
reduce cholesterol causing plaque buildup or my plumbing will clog the
point of no return. So, I was chugging statins for about 9 years, and
suffering with the associated back muscle aches. Every time I saw
blood in the urine (without any kidney pains), I cut back on the
statins until it went away. The problem was that the pains and muscle
damage were cumulative and after 9 years, I couldn't take it any more.
I stopped taking statins and decided is was better to take my chances
with the plaque in the plumbing. It didn't work because 4 years
later, I had to have 2 stents installed. I did some experiments with
minimum statin dosage and settled on 20mg atorvastatin twice a week.
Amazingly, the reduction in cholesterol with this minimal does was the
same as when I was taking much larger doses. No back pain, yet. So,
if you're stuck choosing between taking dangerous statins and risking
a heart attack, run a blood test with minimal dosage.

Incidentally, see:
http://www.directlabs.com
for cheap blood tests.

I see
my cardiologist quarterly and that includes a blood test to be sure
that none of the three medicines, two - hypertension, one for
cholesterol, I take are causing problems.

Same here except every 6 months. I usually test for much more to see
if there are any new surprises. This covers most of the heart related
tests:
https://www.directlabs.com/Resources/Cardiovascular/CardioPlusPanel/tabid/191/language/en-US/Default.aspx
Last results were all within limits, except I had low protein in the
blood with was easily fixed by tweaking my diet.

As an aside, aspirin, after an estimated 2500 years of use is now
considered almost poisonous :-)

I take low dose 81mg aspirin and 75mg plavix (blood thinner). Nothing
like waking up in the morning and looking like I had been in a fist
fight. It works well for intimidating irate customers and haggling
with merchants over prices. The only problem so far is that both my
knees are large purple bruises thanks to abrasion with my pant legs.
Also, I had to switch to an electric shaver to keep from looking like
a knife assault victim in the morning. I've been playing with a blood
clotting accelerator spray, which seems to help.

Just about anything in sufficient dosage and over extended periods is
dangerous. You can get sick from drinking too much water.


--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558