Road Unicycle Set-Up and T7 Handle Modification

GizmoDuck;1167349 wrote:
At over 20km/hr, what are your chances of running out of a UPD? Either
way, you will end up on the ground. In fact, I think one of the reasons
why unicyclists have such horrific ankle and leg injuries is to do with
the way we fall. Bicyclists tend to scrape off alot of skin when they
fall (usually to the side), or break their clavicle/wrist if they went
over the bar. Unicyclists tend to fall with their legs hitting the
ground at funny angles....I think many of you have seen my Xrays and
other Xrays on this forum.

If you are riding a bike, you are not consciously thinking about how
you are going to fall. You try not to in the first place! I think we
need to get away from the mentality that if you fall off a unicycle, you
need to be able to run it out. Especially when you are going at
25km/hr....that's just not practical.

At 20-25km/h your chances of running out of an UPD are relatively high,
and if all goes well you end up on the ground but on your feet. I don't
know many other unicyclists who have had horrific ankle and leg injuries
like you Ken- maybe you are extra good at finding awkward ways to crash.
I think running is a very practical way of escaping harm. Maybe you
prefer sliding along the concrete on your face. I think if you are going
over 30km/h then running out would be hard. My fastest speed so far was
35.1km/h and I really did not want to crash although I came close to
losing control.
I'm looking forwards to the results of these experimental handles- I
just rode 150km with a T7 and it didn't feel like the most ergonomic
position possible.


flyer;1167786 wrote:

It's very cool to finally see a use for the tail on the T7, I'm not
sure it really had one until now.

I've found it to be useful. It is good for a stand. You can push the
unicycle around with it. And when school kids ask to have a go I can let
them sit on it and hold the front and rear handle without having to put
my hand too close to the student's bottom.


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turtle;1167867 wrote:
@gizmo: do you never sleep?

I'm sure Ken has a subscription to this thread, and that somehow he
found a way to have the emails sent to his cell phone at any time of the
day or night. It's "his" thread, and quite active and compelling at
that, so he couldn't sleep anyway.


GizmoDuck;1167865 wrote:
It lowers your centre of gravity which I find helps with stability at
speed also.

Ken, I think you are the only one who always mentions this argument. I
doubt if it's right. If you ride a giraffe (I mean the unicycle version
), you tend to fall very slow and there's ample time to correct. New
riders on a giraffe are often amazed at how easy it is.

Balance a broomstick vertically on your finger. It's easy, right?
Now try balancing a pencil on your finger. Difficult right? If not, cut
the pencil in half.

Surely a tucked position has aerodynamic and ergonomic advantages, but
not re stability, I think.


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Klaas Bil;1167874 wrote:
I'm sure Ken has a subscription to this thread, and that somehow he
found a way to have the emails sent to his cell phone at any time of the
day or night. It's "his" thread, and quite active and compelling at
that, so he couldn't sleep anyway.

Ken, I think you are the only one who always mentions this argument. I
doubt if it's right. If you ride a giraffe (I mean the unicycle version
), you tend to fall very slow and there's ample time to correct. New
riders on a giraffe are often amazed at how easy it is.

Balance a broomstick vertically on your finger. It's easy, right?
Now try balancing a pencil on your finger. Difficult right? If not, cut
the pencil in half.

Surely a tucked position has aerodynamic and ergonomic advantages, but
not re stability, I think.



Nope, I just hang around on my computer alot. And nightshift sometimes
is quiet so I fire up my laptop.

As for the lower centre of gravity argument....I just went for another
ride on the T7 T-frame set-up, and I'm 100% sure it correct. I was
powering around a track today, and the ONLY thing slowing me down was
the fact that I had no leverage because the natural posture as you get
up to speed is to lower your body with your body down to about 45
degrees. Except that the T7 bar was up against my chest. As soon as I
tried to sit in a more upright position, it felt extremely unstable. At
20km/hr upright is fine, at 30km/hr, if you hit a bump, it's hard to
compensate. Also, it feels like I could get more power into the
quads/hamstrings when I'm not sitting upright. I know I could pedal
faster, but the thing felt too unstable to do so.

Ok, and another example....if you watch any unicycle races (eg track,
or road), you'll notice that as the competitors speed up, the more bent
over their bodies are compared to when they're riding around at low
speed. That makes no sense if sitting upright is more stable. Have yet
to see anyone win a track race with their body in the upright position.

I don't know how an upright giraffe can be compared....firstly the
pivot point is above the wheel, and secondly, try riding a giraffe at
30km/hr. I think my argument still holds


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The Uninam Tour 2008.....Hanoi to Saigon!!! www.uninam.net
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GizmoDuck;1167888 wrote:
As for the lower centre of gravity argument....I just went for another
ride on the T7 T-frame set-up, and I'm 100% sure it correct.

I can't argue with your personal experience.


GizmoDuck;1167888 wrote:
Ok, and another example....if you watch any unicycle races (eg track, or
road), you'll notice that as the competitors speed up, the more bent
over their bodies are compared to when they're riding around at low
speed. That makes no sense if sitting upright is more stable.

It makes sense if being bent over results in less air drag, even if it
goes at the expense of stability.


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Klaas Bil;1167892 wrote:
I can't argue with your personal experience.

It makes sense if being bent over results in less air drag, even if it
goes at the expense of stability.



I don't think the people who race are consciously thinking about drag.
I know I don't. I'd rather position my body in a way which get's the
most power and stability, because that has the biggest effect on speed.
And for track races, they're not going that fast anyway with 24"
wheels....drag is not significant.

Also, if you look at photos of say, Chuck Edwall or Jan Longeman riding
at speed....they're all tucked over (with their T7's tucked against
their chest). You'd have to ask them why, but it's probably not a
conscious posture....just what feels natural.


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The Induni Unicycle Tour 2009. Unicycle Tour of India. Email me for
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The Uninam Tour 2008.....Hanoi to Saigon!!! www.uninam.net
The SINZ Unicycle Tour 2007....South Island, New Zealand
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I'm really impressed with your set up Ken, I've been looking for a way
to easily mount a bike seat on my coker for a while. Uni saddles are
definitely not the right shape for distance. I'd keep a close eye on the
T7 for any signs of cracking, handle failure with that set up would be
messy!


GizmoDuck;1167888 wrote:

Ok, and another example....if you watch any unicycle races (eg track,
or road), you'll notice that as the competitors speed up, the more bent
over their bodies are compared to when they're riding around at low
speed. That makes no sense if sitting upright is more stable. Have yet
to see anyone win a track race with their body in the upright position.




It's true that the faster you ride on a uni the more bent over you tend
to be, this isn't just about stability though, it's also because you
need to have your weight slightly ahead of the contact patch of the
tire, and as speed increases you weight needs to move further ahead of
the contact patch. You see this most clearly watching beginners, they
often don't lean far forward enough and the wheel shoots out from
underneath them.

Having said all that, I think there are significant benefits of a more
bike like position, reduced weight on the riders crotch, and a position
that enables the rider to use their muscles more efficiently.


GizmoDuck;1167888 wrote:

Also, it feels like I could get more power into the quads/hamstrings
when I'm not sitting upright. I know I could pedal faster, but the thing
felt too unstable to do so.



I had a proper bike fitting last year, and one of the things they
commented on was that I didn't lean my hips forward enough when
pedalling. Leaning your hips back (and arching your back) reduces the
amount of power you generate in your hamstrings and glutes. On the bike
I've consiously tried to lean my hips forward and it does help, on the
Coker (with T7) it's not really possible without bending my arms which
is OK for a short period but not sustainable for long rides.

The thing I'm wondering about is how this more bent over position
affects the effective fore/aft position of the saddle, relative to the
hub. The rule of thumb for setting fore/aft position on a bike is that
with the pedals level (horizontal) the little bump on the front of your
knee (not sure of the proper name - Ken?) should be directly over the
axle of the front pedal.

With a uni it's complicated because the seat angle varies as you speed
up and as you lean forward. I would be interested to see if was possible
to get the fore/aft position "right" for a given speed on a flat
surface, and how this varied as the rider sped up and slowed down.

Paul


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paul royle;1167937 wrote:

It's true that the faster you ride on a uni the more bent over you tend
to be, this isn't just about stability though, it's also because you
need to have your weight slightly ahead of the contact patch of the
tire, and as speed increases you weight needs to move further ahead of
the contact patch. You see this most clearly watching beginners, they
often don't lean far forward enough and the wheel shoots out from
underneath them.

Paul



Hmmm....I think you're right Paul. It feels like I'm going to topple
over backwards if I ride in a too-upright position at speed. Maybe
that's what I mean when I talk about stability, if I hit a bump at high
speed in an upright position, it feels like I'm going to fall over
backwards. That's why it feels unstable.


paul royle;1167937 wrote:

Having said all that, I think there are significant benefits of a more
bike like position, reduced weight on the riders crotch, and a position
that enables the rider to use their muscles more efficiently.





My thoughts exactly. Your weight is distributed at three points
(hands, feet and butt).


--
GizmoDuck

The Induni Unicycle Tour 2009. Unicycle Tour of India. Email me for
details. www.induni.adventureunicyclist.com
The Uninam Tour 2008.....Hanoi to Saigon!!! www.uninam.net
The SINZ Unicycle Tour 2007....South Island, New Zealand
www.sinzuni.org
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saskatchewanian;1167381 wrote:
Turtle and Ken, where did you find those seat clamp things? I did a
quick google search and couldn't find anything. It would probably help
to know what they are called.

I can't wait to get a 36er again so I can try out a few ideas I have.



I did a quick google search too, and here is what I came up with, for
$3 at Amazon.com

For anyone interested in modifying the T7, or constructing some other
sort of T-frame design using front/back poles:

http://tinyurl.com/7qbrav


Here is a pic


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The Uninam Tour 2008.....Hanoi to Saigon!!! www.uninam.net
The SINZ Unicycle Tour 2007....South Island, New Zealand
www.sinzuni.org
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GizmoDuck;1167893 wrote:
I don't think the people who race are consciously thinking about drag.
I know I don't. I'd rather position my body in a way which get's the
most power and stability, because that has the biggest effect on speed.
And for track races, they're not going that fast anyway with 24"
wheels....drag is not significant.

I didn't think you still think about racing Ken! You haven't turned up
to a unicycle race in New Zealand for the last 5 years! I thought you
gave up!


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GizmoDuck;1167993 wrote:
Hmmm....I think you're right Paul. It feels like I'm going to topple
over backwards if I ride in a too-upright position at speed. Maybe
that's what I mean when I talk about stability, if I hit a bump at high
speed in an upright position, it feels like I'm going to fall over
backwards. That's why it feels unstable.




I agree. I find it very difficult to ride a coker without a T7 now,
just holding the handle on the seat feels too unstable. Having a third
point of contact makes it much easier to correct the front/back balance
and reduces the side to side wobble at speed.


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paul royle
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