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American Classic hub design problem
Hello folks. Recently, my American Classic rear hub had a problem. Those of
you familiar with the design will know it's problematic. To differentiate his design from shimano \ campy, Bill Shook decided to avoid using traditional spring-loaded pawls. The idea here is to decrease coasting drag friction, as the AC pawls do not drag across the freehub teeth when coasting. This is great, in theory. The problem is that the 6 pawls are engaged through a "pawl plate". The pawl plate is engaged, amazingly, by a flimsy piece of wire that is wound around the inside face of the freehub. A couple of millimeters of the wire are bent in towards the pawl plate. This portion of the wire is angled obliquely such that it drags against the pawl plate's engagement holes. When coasting, the familiar machine gun sound is heard. However, this is not the shimano \ campy spring-loaded pawl sound. The problem is that it's ill-advised to rely on this flimsy piece of wire for the critical task of engaging the pawl plate. The bent portion of wire must be angled perfectly. If it hits the plate too squarely, then coasting drag is huge; if it hits too shallowly, then there's a chance it won't engage the pawl plate when pedalling. This happened to me on a ride, luckily I stopped off at a friend's and switched out the wheel. I have since serviced the hub. Getting that wire to hit the pawl plate properly is a true nightmare. It's currently set up with the wire hitting the plate somewhat squarely, in order to ensure engagement. Sadly, this does result in much more coasting drag than either shimano or campy. Ironically, I'm sure Bill Shook's goal was to eliminate coasting drag... Bill, if this is forwarded to you, I would suggest that the next generation of hub incorporate a much better solution for pawl plate engagement. Something spring-loaded is a must. Relying on the modulus of elasticity of a material (bent wire) really is a shortcoming in this otherwise-elegant design. Thanks. -- -------------------------- Andre Charlebois AGC-PC support http://agc-pc.tripod.com BPE, MCSE4.0, CNA, A+ |
#2
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Andre Charl writes:
Hello folks. Recently, my American Classic rear hub had a problem. Those of you familiar with the design will know it's problematic. To differentiate his design from Shimano \ Campy, Bill Shook decided to avoid using traditional spring-loaded pawls. The idea here is to decrease coasting drag friction, as the AC pawls do not drag across the freehub teeth when coasting. This is great, in theory. There is a picture of this mechanism on their web site: http://www.amclassic.com/Road_Hubs.html However, various escapements have been invented over many years and the silent pawl used by Regina, SunTour and others has practically no drag because the large "heel" has enough viscous friction in the body to not snap back at rotational speeds of interest. That is also why they cannot be heard. The problem is that the 6 pawls are engaged through a "pawl plate". The pawl plate is engaged, amazingly, by a flimsy piece of wire that is wound around the inside face of the freehub. A couple of millimeters of the wire are bent in towards the pawl plate. This portion of the wire is angled obliquely such that it drags against the pawl plate's engagement holes. When coasting, the familiar machine gun sound is heard. However, this is not the Shimano \ Campy spring-loaded pawl sound. Unfortunately there is no picture of this device assembled but it seems to rely on the drag of the wire on the pawl plate. This being an unreliable drag, the engagement is equally unreliable. Because it cannot be heard, the assumption is that there is no drag... but there is. Besides, the actuator wire slides over the pawl plate across the series of holes visible in the picture of the parts. The problem is that it's ill-advised to rely on this flimsy piece of wire for the critical task of engaging the pawl plate. The bent portion of wire must be angled perfectly. If it hits the plate too squarely, then coasting drag is huge; if it hits too shallowly, then there's a chance it won't engage the pawl plate when pedaling. This happened to me on a ride, luckily I stopped off at a friend's and switched out the wheel. I find amazing how many people do not study history, in mechanics, politics or warfare. We don' need no steenkin new escapements. See Hugi, the loudest and most expensive ratchet on hubs with no redeeming value. Besides these problems, the mechanism is not well protected against water and dirt. I have since serviced the hub. Getting that wire to hit the pawl plate properly is a true nightmare. It's currently set up with the wire hitting the plate somewhat squarely, in order to ensure engagement. Sadly, this does result in much more coasting drag than either Shimano or Campy. Ironically, I'm sure Bill Shook's goal was to eliminate coasting drag... Well, Sturmey Archer went through the spring-less pawls on their SW hubs only to discover they had feet of clay. Riders stood up to pedal and flew forward in neutral, the pawls not engaging at all because the oil was more viscous than the inventor had imagined. Bill, if this is forwarded to you, I would suggest that the next generation of hub incorporate a much better solution for pawl plate engagement. Something spring-loaded is a must. Relying on the modulus of elasticity of a material (bent wire) really is a shortcoming in this otherwise-elegant design. Although the pawls do not make contact when coasting, the actuator wire does and has more drag than typical good pawls. Jobst Brandt |
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David Newman writes:
However, various escapements have been invented over many years and the silent pawl used by Regina, SunTour and others has practically no drag because the large "heel" has enough viscous friction in the body to not snap back at rotational speeds of interest. That is also why they cannot be heard. Are any currently-available hubs equipped with the silent pawl you describe? If so, which ones? Up to now, I've found Shimano to be quieter than the other hubs with which I'm familiar, but if there's a hub even quieter than that, I'd like to know about it. I am appalled by noisy hubs like Chris King, which sounds to me something like a swarm of angry bees. I haven't disassembled a Shimano hub so I don't know what they use. The problem with ratchets arose when freehubs reduced the operating diameter of the ratchet and at the same time MTB's began using less than 20t on chainrings with as much as a 1:2 ratio... four times any gears that were encountered with previous freewheels. With Pawl failure, most designs went to what they considered failsafe, using double or triple engagement and unusual pawls. In freewheels with ball bearings, that invariably are not perfectly adjusted, eccentric rotation is probable and in that case only one pawl carries the entire load. This is something engineers of the past were aware of and therefopre never attempted multiple engagements. Regina for instance had two pawls 180 degrees apart and 21 ratchet teeth to give fine 42 engagements per rotation. Campagnolo made an aluminum freewheel that didn't work even though they thought they had triple engagement (of three pawls). Since they were singly carrying the entire load at some point, they went into yield under high pedaling torque. Hugi used the face spline that has all teeth engaged at once but these also suffer from slightest eccentricity that is inherent even elastically with the chain pull as great as occurs at maximum torque. As far as I could see, superficially, Shimano bit the bullet and made their single pawls wide enough to hold the load one at a time. I think their large size makes them noisier than classic freewheels. Take one apart and see if there are an even or odd number of teeth in the ratchet and the number of pawls. Jobst Brandt |
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Marten Gerritsen writes:
Take one apart and see if there are an even or odd number of teeth in the ratchet and the number of pawls. 2 pawls @ 90 degrees, 16 teeth Oh how crude. 16 clicks per revolution isn't a low backlash device when compared to old Regina and Atom freewheels with 42 clicks per revolution. At least they gave it some thought. At 90 degrees, both pawls (if perfectly spaced and identical in size and shape) can be load bearing at the same time as they crowd the rotor against the ball bearings on the opposite side. Still, the greatest load is held primarily by one pawl that is at the top (where the chain pulls). At other positions the load is divided between them variably. www.m-gineering.nl That's a nice collection of failures in the "Oops" site. Most of those should not have occurred. Jobst Brandt |
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m-gineering wrote:
wrote: Take one apart and see if there are an even or odd number of teeth in the ratchet and the number of pawls. 2 pawls @ 90 degrees, 16 teeth Are all Shimano hubs like this? I've had many apart, but never counted the teeth! I always assumed it was an odd number, with one pawl carrying the load like previous freewheels. Matt O. |
#8
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Are any currently-available hubs equipped with the silent pawl you describe? If so, which ones? Up to now, I've found Shimano to be quieter than the other hubs with which I'm familiar, but if there's a hub even quieter than that, I'd like to know about it. I am appalled by noisy hubs like Chris King, which sounds to me something like a swarm of angry bees. Old LX silent clutch hubs are still available. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...sPageName=WDVW They are also available through J&B distributors. -- Phil, Squid-in-Training |
#9
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Phil Lee writes:
Are any currently-available hubs equipped with the silent pawl you describe? If so, which ones? Up to now, I've found Shimano to be quieter than the other hubs with which I'm familiar, but if there's a hub even quieter than that, I'd like to know about it. I am appalled by noisy hubs like Chris King, which sounds to me something like a swarm of angry bees. These guys are all scrambling to make a ratchet that can take the load of overweight riders on 1:2 chain ratios and within the smaller confines of current slide-on sprocket carriers. I'm not sure most of them understand the problem with ratchets and which tooth is receiving what loads. Old LX silent clutch hubs are still available. I'm not thrilled with roller ramp 'clutches', commonly used in automatic car transmissions. They are silent and continuous but large for their ability to transmit torque. They can be essentially no-backlash devices. Jobst Brandt |
#10
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