Rear Phil FSC Freehub - Clunk... Clunk... Clunk!

Phil Gurus,

I have one of these hubs on my regular road bike. This hub currently
has about 13K miles on it. It has been ridden under fairly benign
conditions and rarely in the rain.

Last fall it developed pawl engagement clunk... clunk... clunk noises.
Phil was nice enough to provide a new freehub body under warranty.
This got rid of the noise for about 1500 miles.

The noise has recently returned so I disassembled the wheel and
cleaned and re-greased the assembly. While apart and clean I could
readily see areas on the ratchet teeth where the pawls had been
slipping i.e failing to engage the ratchet ring.

On a ride today the noise was still there. At this point I am assuming
that the ratchet ring needs to be replaced. Does anyone know if this
can be done by a mechanically inclined individual or an experienced
LBS? I am assuming that it might require special tools?

This is my first experience with Phil hubs and I am really
disappointed concerning their reputation for quality products. Is this
the kind of mileage that I can expect from one of these hubs?

Is this freehub design just finicky? i.e. if the moon, stars, and
special grease viscosity all line up then they work properly. If not
they begin eating themselves up in short order?

I have noticed that even fully greased the pawls seem kind of "jerky"
(not smooth) when pressed by a finger. I wonder if this is the same
thing that is keeping them from fully engaging while in the hub.
Should a special kind of grease be used on these?

Thanks for any insight.

Steve

Steve Sr. wrote:
Phil Gurus,

I have one of these hubs on my regular road bike. This hub currently
has about 13K miles on it. It has been ridden under fairly benign
conditions and rarely in the rain.

Last fall it developed pawl engagement clunk... clunk... clunk noises.
Phil was nice enough to provide a new freehub body under warranty.
This got rid of the noise for about 1500 miles.

The noise has recently returned so I disassembled the wheel and
cleaned and re-greased the assembly. While apart and clean I could
readily see areas on the ratchet teeth where the pawls had been
slipping i.e failing to engage the ratchet ring.

On a ride today the noise was still there. At this point I am assuming
that the ratchet ring needs to be replaced. Does anyone know if this
can be done by a mechanically inclined individual or an experienced
LBS? I am assuming that it might require special tools?

This is my first experience with Phil hubs and I am really
disappointed concerning their reputation for quality products. Is this
the kind of mileage that I can expect from one of these hubs?

Is this freehub design just finicky? i.e. if the moon, stars, and
special grease viscosity all line up then they work properly. If not
they begin eating themselves up in short order?

I have noticed that even fully greased the pawls seem kind of "jerky"
(not smooth) when pressed by a finger. I wonder if this is the same
thing that is keeping them from fully engaging while in the hub.
Should a special kind of grease be used on these?

Thanks for any insight.

An uncommon situation with that hub. Not being able to see
it, my thoughts are that your lubricant is too thick. A very
thin grease maybe, but we prefer a gear oil on pawls. You
should consult with your local Phil dealer or call Phil Wood.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

AMuzi wrote:
Steve Sr. wrote:
Phil Gurus,

I have one of these hubs on my regular road bike. This hub currently
has about 13K miles on it. It has been ridden under fairly benign
conditions and rarely in the rain.

Last fall it developed pawl engagement clunk... clunk... clunk noises.
Phil was nice enough to provide a new freehub body under warranty.
This got rid of the noise for about 1500 miles.
The noise has recently returned so I disassembled the wheel and
cleaned and re-greased the assembly. While apart and clean I could
readily see areas on the ratchet teeth where the pawls had been
slipping i.e failing to engage the ratchet ring.
On a ride today the noise was still there. At this point I am assuming
that the ratchet ring needs to be replaced. Does anyone know if this
can be done by a mechanically inclined individual or an experienced
LBS? I am assuming that it might require special tools?

This is my first experience with Phil hubs and I am really
disappointed concerning their reputation for quality products. Is this
the kind of mileage that I can expect from one of these hubs?
Is this freehub design just finicky? i.e. if the moon, stars, and
special grease viscosity all line up then they work properly. If not
they begin eating themselves up in short order?
I have noticed that even fully greased the pawls seem kind of "jerky"
(not smooth) when pressed by a finger. I wonder if this is the same
thing that is keeping them from fully engaging while in the hub.
Should a special kind of grease be used on these?

Thanks for any insight.

An uncommon situation with that hub. Not being able to see it, my
thoughts are that your lubricant is too thick. A very thin grease maybe,
but we prefer a gear oil on pawls. You should consult with your local
Phil dealer or call Phil Wood.


I had trouble with pawls not engaging properly using heavy gear oil
(80w-140) in a Mavic hub.

After the pawls slipped a few times the edge had worn off them and I
reshaped them carefully with a file.

Now I use much lighter oil (ATF), and have no problems.

JS.

On Mar 1, 8:52*pm, Steve Sr. wrote:
Phil Gurus,

I have one of these hubs on my regular road bike. This hub currently
has about 13K miles on it. It has been ridden under fairly benign
conditions and rarely in the rain.

Last fall it developed pawl engagement clunk... clunk... clunk noises.
Phil was nice enough to provide a new freehub body under warranty.
This got rid of the noise for about 1500 miles.

The noise has recently returned so I disassembled the wheel and
cleaned and re-greased the assembly. While apart and clean I could
readily see areas on the ratchet teeth where the pawls had been
slipping i.e failing to engage the ratchet ring.

On a ride today the noise was still there. At this point I am assuming
that the ratchet ring needs to be replaced. Does anyone know if this
can be done by a mechanically inclined individual or an experienced
LBS? I am assuming that it might require special tools?

This is my first experience with Phil hubs and I am really
disappointed concerning their reputation for quality products. Is this
the kind of mileage that I can expect from one of these hubs?

Is this freehub design just finicky? i.e. if the moon, stars, and
special grease viscosity all line up then they work properly. If not
they begin eating themselves up in short order?

I have noticed that even fully greased the pawls seem kind of "jerky"
(not smooth) when pressed by a finger. I wonder if this is the same
thing that is keeping them from fully engaging while in the hub.
Should a special kind of grease be used on these?

Thanks for any insight.

Steve

A common issue with these hubs (sorry Andrew, I saw a lot of these).
If I recall correctly Phil recommends their own gear oil (repackaged
gear oil with a fancy name) instead of grease. The circular spring
can also be damaged/defective and then won't lift the pawls.

On Mar 1, 11:51*pm, robin2660 wrote:
On Mar 1, 8:52*pm, Steve Sr. wrote:









Phil Gurus,

I have one of these hubs on my regular road bike. This hub currently
has about 13K miles on it. It has been ridden under fairly benign
conditions and rarely in the rain.

Last fall it developed pawl engagement clunk... clunk... clunk noises.
Phil was nice enough to provide a new freehub body under warranty.
This got rid of the noise for about 1500 miles.

The noise has recently returned so I disassembled the wheel and
cleaned and re-greased the assembly. While apart and clean I could
readily see areas on the ratchet teeth where the pawls had been
slipping i.e failing to engage the ratchet ring.

On a ride today the noise was still there. At this point I am assuming
that the ratchet ring needs to be replaced. Does anyone know if this
can be done by a mechanically inclined individual or an experienced
LBS? I am assuming that it might require special tools?

This is my first experience with Phil hubs and I am really
disappointed concerning their reputation for quality products. Is this
the kind of mileage that I can expect from one of these hubs?

Is this freehub design just finicky? i.e. if the moon, stars, and
special grease viscosity all line up then they work properly. If not
they begin eating themselves up in short order?

I have noticed that even fully greased the pawls seem kind of "jerky"
(not smooth) when pressed by a finger. I wonder if this is the same
thing that is keeping them from fully engaging while in the hub.
Should a special kind of grease be used on these?

Thanks for any insight.

Steve

A common issue with these hubs (sorry Andrew, I saw a lot of these).
If I recall correctly Phil recommends their own gear oil (repackaged
gear oil with a fancy name) instead of grease. *The circular spring
can also be damaged/defective and then won't lift the pawls.

I've had great luck with Phil's tenacious in freehubs. Stays put and
makes them purr. Grease and pawls is generally a dumb idea.

On Tue, 01 Mar 2011 21:52:09 -0500, Steve Sr.
wrote:

These wheels were built by Peter White up in New Hampshire. I called
Peter today to ask for his input. He basically said that he had seen
this issue before. He seemed to remember that at one time some of
these hubs were built with incorrectly machined parts which led to
this issue. I am begining to wonder if I was one of the "lucky" ones
to get one of these hubs.

He also seemed to indicate that once one of these starts slipping it
tends to continue and get worse. He recommended a return to Phil Wood
so that they could look at the hub.

I have managed to maintain lots of freehubs over my 30 year cycling
career and I have NEVER had one fail in this manner. Even after they
get a little dirt in them and start making a little noise I take then
apart, clean everything up, re-lube and it is good to go for another
5K miles. Here it appears that once these hubs slip once it is a down
hill slide with no chance of recovery.

Steve

On Tue, 1 Mar 2011 21:51:58 -0800 (PST), robin2660
wrote:

On Mar 1, 8:52*pm, Steve Sr. wrote:
Phil Gurus,

I have one of these hubs on my regular road bike. This hub currently
has about 13K miles on it. It has been ridden under fairly benign
conditions and rarely in the rain.

Last fall it developed pawl engagement clunk... clunk... clunk noises.
Phil was nice enough to provide a new freehub body under warranty.
This got rid of the noise for about 1500 miles.

The noise has recently returned so I disassembled the wheel and
cleaned and re-greased the assembly. While apart and clean I could
readily see areas on the ratchet teeth where the pawls had been
slipping i.e failing to engage the ratchet ring.

On a ride today the noise was still there. At this point I am assuming
that the ratchet ring needs to be replaced. Does anyone know if this
can be done by a mechanically inclined individual or an experienced
LBS? I am assuming that it might require special tools?

This is my first experience with Phil hubs and I am really
disappointed concerning their reputation for quality products. Is this
the kind of mileage that I can expect from one of these hubs?

Is this freehub design just finicky? i.e. if the moon, stars, and
special grease viscosity all line up then they work properly. If not
they begin eating themselves up in short order?

I have noticed that even fully greased the pawls seem kind of "jerky"
(not smooth) when pressed by a finger. I wonder if this is the same
thing that is keeping them from fully engaging while in the hub.
Should a special kind of grease be used on these?

Thanks for any insight.

Steve

A common issue with these hubs (sorry Andrew, I saw a lot of these).

Interesting... I heard from Peter White today that Phil had a problem
with these at one time with incorrectly machined parts. Is this what
you are referring to or is this an ongoing issue? I am wondering if I
got "lucky" enough to get one of these suspect hubs.

If I recall correctly Phil recommends their own gear oil (repackaged
gear oil with a fancy name) instead of grease.

Not according to their current web site. They currently recommend that
Phil grease be used. The amount depends on whether you go by what they
tell you on the phone (a lot) or what is on the video on their Web
site (a little). The only differnce that I have noticed is that the
more grease you use the quieter the freewheel ratchet.

The circular spring
can also be damaged/defective and then won't lift the pawls.

When I first talked to Phil about this issue that was their first
thought and sent me a replacement spring. I replaced the spring which
made no difference.

On Tue, 01 Mar 2011 22:01:40 -0600, AMuzi wrote:

Steve Sr. wrote:
Phil Gurus,

I have one of these hubs on my regular road bike. This hub currently
has about 13K miles on it. It has been ridden under fairly benign
conditions and rarely in the rain.

Last fall it developed pawl engagement clunk... clunk... clunk noises.
Phil was nice enough to provide a new freehub body under warranty.
This got rid of the noise for about 1500 miles.

The noise has recently returned so I disassembled the wheel and
cleaned and re-greased the assembly. While apart and clean I could
readily see areas on the ratchet teeth where the pawls had been
slipping i.e failing to engage the ratchet ring.

On a ride today the noise was still there. At this point I am assuming
that the ratchet ring needs to be replaced. Does anyone know if this
can be done by a mechanically inclined individual or an experienced
LBS? I am assuming that it might require special tools?

This is my first experience with Phil hubs and I am really
disappointed concerning their reputation for quality products. Is this
the kind of mileage that I can expect from one of these hubs?

Is this freehub design just finicky? i.e. if the moon, stars, and
special grease viscosity all line up then they work properly. If not
they begin eating themselves up in short order?

I have noticed that even fully greased the pawls seem kind of "jerky"
(not smooth) when pressed by a finger. I wonder if this is the same
thing that is keeping them from fully engaging while in the hub.
Should a special kind of grease be used on these?

Thanks for any insight.

An uncommon situation with that hub. Not being able to see
it, my thoughts are that your lubricant is too thick. A very
thin grease maybe, but we prefer a gear oil on pawls. You
should consult with your local Phil dealer or call Phil Wood.

Interesting thoughts on lubrication...

Phil currently recommends that Phil grease be used (of course). The
amount depends on whether you go by what they tell you on the phone (a
lot) or what is on the video on their Web site (a little). The only
differnce that I have noticed is that the more grease you use the
quieter the freewheel ratchet. I think that they tend to pack them
pretty full to lower the ratchet noise.

I have been using Amzoil 100% synthetic multipurpose grease which is a
thin grease and appears to be about the same viscosity as the Phil
grease. I have used this for years in other hubs and freehub
assemblies without a problem.

I can sort of see an argument against oil in that it will flow a lot
more readily than grease and will eventually run off the surfaces to
be lubricated resulting in a lack of lubrication. The grease tends to
stay put solving this issue.

However, the thickness of the grease may result in other issues as
Andrew has noted by not allowing the pawls to move fast enough or
fully engage.

BTW, I can't imagine how LOUD the ratcheting of one of these hubs
would be with just gear oil lubrication. It was already pretty loud
with grease.

Steve

Steve Sr. wrote:
On Tue, 01 Mar 2011 22:01:40 -0600, AMuzi wrote:

Steve Sr. wrote:
Phil Gurus,

I have one of these hubs on my regular road bike. This hub currently
has about 13K miles on it. It has been ridden under fairly benign
conditions and rarely in the rain.

Last fall it developed pawl engagement clunk... clunk... clunk noises.
Phil was nice enough to provide a new freehub body under warranty.
This got rid of the noise for about 1500 miles.

The noise has recently returned so I disassembled the wheel and
cleaned and re-greased the assembly. While apart and clean I could
readily see areas on the ratchet teeth where the pawls had been
slipping i.e failing to engage the ratchet ring.

On a ride today the noise was still there. At this point I am assuming
that the ratchet ring needs to be replaced. Does anyone know if this
can be done by a mechanically inclined individual or an experienced
LBS? I am assuming that it might require special tools?

This is my first experience with Phil hubs and I am really
disappointed concerning their reputation for quality products. Is this
the kind of mileage that I can expect from one of these hubs?

Is this freehub design just finicky? i.e. if the moon, stars, and
special grease viscosity all line up then they work properly. If not
they begin eating themselves up in short order?

I have noticed that even fully greased the pawls seem kind of "jerky"
(not smooth) when pressed by a finger. I wonder if this is the same
thing that is keeping them from fully engaging while in the hub.
Should a special kind of grease be used on these?

Thanks for any insight.
An uncommon situation with that hub. Not being able to see
it, my thoughts are that your lubricant is too thick. A very
thin grease maybe, but we prefer a gear oil on pawls. You
should consult with your local Phil dealer or call Phil Wood.

Interesting thoughts on lubrication...

Phil currently recommends that Phil grease be used (of course). The
amount depends on whether you go by what they tell you on the phone (a
lot) or what is on the video on their Web site (a little). The only
differnce that I have noticed is that the more grease you use the
quieter the freewheel ratchet. I think that they tend to pack them
pretty full to lower the ratchet noise.

I have been using Amzoil 100% synthetic multipurpose grease which is a
thin grease and appears to be about the same viscosity as the Phil
grease. I have used this for years in other hubs and freehub
assemblies without a problem.

I can sort of see an argument against oil in that it will flow a lot
more readily than grease and will eventually run off the surfaces to
be lubricated resulting in a lack of lubrication. The grease tends to
stay put solving this issue.

Oil runs off and runs back on again, providing actual lubrication.

Grease by itself is not a lubricant. It gets pushed aside and acts only
as a sponge for oil which is the real lubricant.

Grease used for bearing lubrication is actually a mixture of grease (the
sponge) and oil (the lube). The lubricant must be able to flow. Grease
alone does not do this.

However, the thickness of the grease may result in other issues as
Andrew has noted by not allowing the pawls to move fast enough or
fully engage.

Precisely.

JS.

On Mar 2, 4:59*pm, Steve Sr. wrote:
On Tue, 01 Mar 2011 21:52:09 -0500, Steve Sr.
wrote:

These wheels were built by Peter White up in New Hampshire. I called
Peter today to ask for his input. He basically said that he had seen
this issue before. He seemed to remember that at one time some of
these hubs were built with incorrectly machined parts which led to
this issue. I am begining to wonder if I was one of the "lucky" ones
to get one of these hubs.

He also seemed to indicate that once one of these starts slipping it
tends to continue and get worse. He recommended a return to Phil Wood
so that they could look at the hub.

I have managed to maintain lots of freehubs over my 30 year cycling
career and I have NEVER had one fail in this manner. Even after they
get a little dirt in them and start making a little noise I take then
aExpart, clean everything up, re-lube and it is good to go for another
5K miles. Here it appears that once these hubs slip once it is a down
hill slide with no chance of recovery.

Steve

Except that they have a lifetime warranty, don't they? Send it back
to Phil or Peter or someone and get it fixed. I used to take things
back to Phil anytime a bearing blew or BB broke, but again, that was
back when Phil was Phil-the-man, and I Iived down the street from the
shop and would just walk in and get service. I never had to ship a
wheel or look for service in a far away locale.-- Jay Beattie.