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#52
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Conbtinental has come out with a GP5000S and a GP5000TL
On 2/18/2019 8:35 AM, Duane wrote:
My point is that you seem to have different results from anyone I know with respect to tires. Joerg has different results from anyone I know with respect to lots of things. -- - Frank Krygowski |
#53
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Conbtinental has come out with a GP5000S and a GP5000TL
On 2/18/2019 12:33 PM, wrote:
On Monday, February 18, 2019 at 8:39:21 AM UTC-8, duane wrote: On 18/02/2019 10:16 a.m., Joerg wrote: On 2019-02-18 05:35, Duane wrote: On 17/02/2019 10:57 a.m., Joerg wrote: On 2019-02-11 15:32, wrote: On Sunday, February 10, 2019 at 4:54:06 PM UTC-8, Duane wrote: wrote: On Sunday, February 10, 2019 at 3:52:27 PM UTC+1, Duane wrote: wrote: On Saturday, February 9, 2019 at 7:56:22 PM UTC+1, Joerg wrote: On 2019-02-09 09:52, wrote: I learned pretty soon that paying more than $20 for a road bike tire is a waste of money. In fact, they can be worse than expensive tires. Similar for MTB tires. That depends on your riding conditions and requirements. I ride on good roads on my road bikes and get 4500 km out of a Continental 4000S(2) rear tire and expect the same from the 5000 so price is not that important. Lou I get about the same mileage and very few flats. I think I’ve had one flat in the last 10,000km and that was a tube giving out when I hit a pothole hard. I ride on roads but I can’t say they’re always good roads. Maybe Joerg is riding his road bike on single track carrying 4 gallons of water or something... 1-1/2 gallons max, on hot summer days. This is required on some rides unless you carry chlorine tablets, can stomach that taste _and_ suppress any thoughts about what you've seen in the river during kayaking further upstream. So you're riding a road bike on single track carrying 1-1/2 gallons of water. Maybe you have the wrong bike for that. No, I use a 29" FS MTB for that. What I am saying is that the problem with tires is basically the same whether road bike or MTB. Expensive tires are designed towards light weight and performance. Then, their sidewalls fail. My point is that you seem to have different results from anyone I know with respect to tires. I don't know anyone doing any serious mileage on a road bike that thinks cheaper tires are better. I have met lots of road bike riders who have realized that expensive tires just aren't worth it unless you plan to participate in the Amgen Tour, every millisecond counts and a team car is there at your beck and call. Saying that the additional cost is not worth the return for your specific use case is different than saying that cheaper tires are better than expensive tires. Well we do have one guy that buys chinese knock off tires online. He's had so many split tires that we are contemplating a GoFundMe page for him so we don't have to keep stopping to put boots in his tires... Very different here. The rolling surface does wear down within 2000mi which is slighlty lower than the 2500mi I could milk out of a Gatorskin. However, I get 2000mi out of every tire while I only got around 1000mi out of the Gatorskins where the sidewalls blew. Are you talking about single track now or are you saying your roads wear tires down more than say Quebec roads? Hard to keep track. And do the Gatorskin tires just blow sidewalls or are you running into ruts or something? All this assumes a tire liner so I can ride tires down to their "last mile". In goat's head thorn country wheer I live a liner is the prudent to do anyhow. Not sure what you mean by a tire liner. It's not like they are optional as far as I know. If memory serves, Joerg is riding a lot in the California coastal range which has a lot of sharp rocks as opposed to the inland hills which are mostly broken down dirt. I had the same sorts of experience on the coastal range as did the groups I would ride with. Along my normal routes the only sharp rocks I encounter are those that have broken off of the hillside and fallen down upon the roads. While this is common enough riding around them is usually easy. But if I try to ride the coastal trails I have to watch carefully. It is easy to get a flat out in the middle of nowhere that isn't repairable. As a midwesterner, I'm not familiar with your west coast terms. Cameron Park is 100 miles+ from the Pacific. Is that considered 'coastal'? -- Andrew Muzi www.yellowjersey.org/ Open every day since 1 April, 1971 |
#54
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Conbtinental has come out with a GP5000S and a GP5000TL
On Monday, February 18, 2019 at 11:16:46 AM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
On 2/18/2019 12:33 PM, wrote: On Monday, February 18, 2019 at 8:39:21 AM UTC-8, duane wrote: On 18/02/2019 10:16 a.m., Joerg wrote: On 2019-02-18 05:35, Duane wrote: On 17/02/2019 10:57 a.m., Joerg wrote: On 2019-02-11 15:32, wrote: On Sunday, February 10, 2019 at 4:54:06 PM UTC-8, Duane wrote: wrote: On Sunday, February 10, 2019 at 3:52:27 PM UTC+1, Duane wrote: wrote: On Saturday, February 9, 2019 at 7:56:22 PM UTC+1, Joerg wrote: On 2019-02-09 09:52, wrote: I learned pretty soon that paying more than $20 for a road bike tire is a waste of money. In fact, they can be worse than expensive tires. Similar for MTB tires. That depends on your riding conditions and requirements. I ride on good roads on my road bikes and get 4500 km out of a Continental 4000S(2) rear tire and expect the same from the 5000 so price is not that important. Lou I get about the same mileage and very few flats. I think I’ve had one flat in the last 10,000km and that was a tube giving out when I hit a pothole hard. I ride on roads but I can’t say they’re always good roads. Maybe Joerg is riding his road bike on single track carrying 4 gallons of water or something... 1-1/2 gallons max, on hot summer days. This is required on some rides unless you carry chlorine tablets, can stomach that taste _and_ suppress any thoughts about what you've seen in the river during kayaking further upstream. So you're riding a road bike on single track carrying 1-1/2 gallons of water. Maybe you have the wrong bike for that. No, I use a 29" FS MTB for that. What I am saying is that the problem with tires is basically the same whether road bike or MTB. Expensive tires are designed towards light weight and performance. Then, their sidewalls fail. My point is that you seem to have different results from anyone I know with respect to tires. I don't know anyone doing any serious mileage on a road bike that thinks cheaper tires are better. I have met lots of road bike riders who have realized that expensive tires just aren't worth it unless you plan to participate in the Amgen Tour, every millisecond counts and a team car is there at your beck and call. Saying that the additional cost is not worth the return for your specific use case is different than saying that cheaper tires are better than expensive tires. Well we do have one guy that buys chinese knock off tires online. He's had so many split tires that we are contemplating a GoFundMe page for him so we don't have to keep stopping to put boots in his tires... Very different here. The rolling surface does wear down within 2000mi which is slighlty lower than the 2500mi I could milk out of a Gatorskin. However, I get 2000mi out of every tire while I only got around 1000mi out of the Gatorskins where the sidewalls blew. Are you talking about single track now or are you saying your roads wear tires down more than say Quebec roads? Hard to keep track. And do the Gatorskin tires just blow sidewalls or are you running into ruts or something? All this assumes a tire liner so I can ride tires down to their "last mile". In goat's head thorn country wheer I live a liner is the prudent to do anyhow. Not sure what you mean by a tire liner. It's not like they are optional as far as I know. If memory serves, Joerg is riding a lot in the California coastal range which has a lot of sharp rocks as opposed to the inland hills which are mostly broken down dirt. I had the same sorts of experience on the coastal range as did the groups I would ride with. Along my normal routes the only sharp rocks I encounter are those that have broken off of the hillside and fallen down upon the roads. While this is common enough riding around them is usually easy. But if I try to ride the coastal trails I have to watch carefully. It is easy to get a flat out in the middle of nowhere that isn't repairable. As a midwesterner, I'm not familiar with your west coast terms. Cameron Park is 100 miles+ from the Pacific. Is that considered 'coastal'? -- Andrew Muzi www.yellowjersey.org/ Open every day since 1 April, 1971 Somehow I had the idea that Joerg worked around Santa Cruz. But El Dorado County also has a similar problem in that it is at the base of the Sierra Nevada and rather than farm country it is in an area where the stones build up towards real mountains. This used to be cattle country after the 49ers were done destroying the countryside. My cousin keeps horses up there now. Though the wineries seem to be taking over since vines are a hell of a lot less particular of the soil type than vegetables. |
#55
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Conbtinental has come out with a GP5000S and a GP5000TL
On 2019-02-18 08:39, Duane wrote:
On 18/02/2019 10:16 a.m., Joerg wrote: On 2019-02-18 05:35, Duane wrote: On 17/02/2019 10:57 a.m., Joerg wrote: On 2019-02-11 15:32, wrote: On Sunday, February 10, 2019 at 4:54:06 PM UTC-8, Duane wrote: wrote: On Sunday, February 10, 2019 at 3:52:27 PM UTC+1, Duane wrote: wrote: On Saturday, February 9, 2019 at 7:56:22 PM UTC+1, Joerg wrote: On 2019-02-09 09:52, wrote: I learned pretty soon that paying more than $20 for a road bike tire is a waste of money. In fact, they can be worse than expensive tires. Similar for MTB tires. That depends on your riding conditions and requirements. I ride on good roads on my road bikes and get 4500 km out of a Continental 4000S(2) rear tire and expect the same from the 5000 so price is not that important. Lou I get about the same mileage and very few flats. I think I’ve had one flat in the last 10,000km and that was a tube giving out when I hit a pothole hard. I ride on roads but I can’t say they’re always good roads. Maybe Joerg is riding his road bike on single track carrying 4 gallons of water or something... 1-1/2 gallons max, on hot summer days. This is required on some rides unless you carry chlorine tablets, can stomach that taste _and_ suppress any thoughts about what you've seen in the river during kayaking further upstream. So you're riding a road bike on single track carrying 1-1/2 gallons of water. Maybe you have the wrong bike for that. No, I use a 29" FS MTB for that. What I am saying is that the problem with tires is basically the same whether road bike or MTB. Expensive tires are designed towards light weight and performance. Then, their sidewalls fail. My point is that you seem to have different results from anyone I know with respect to tires. I don't know anyone doing any serious mileage on a road bike that thinks cheaper tires are better. I have met lots of road bike riders who have realized that expensive tires just aren't worth it unless you plan to participate in the Amgen Tour, every millisecond counts and a team car is there at your beck and call. Saying that the additional cost is not worth the return for your specific use case is different than saying that cheaper tires are better than expensive tires. They _are_ better. To be "better" isn't necessarily something that has a better cost/performance ratio but somthing that doesn't go KAPOOF during ride. I didn't have flats in years, neither on the MTB nor the road bike. Mission accomplished, I'd say, and it was accomplished by switching to Asian tires. As I said this is different for competitive riders who get a new bike from the team car the second a tire is flat. I do not have a team car, do not belong to that group and never will. Well we do have one guy that buys chinese knock off tires online. He's had so many split tires that we are contemplating a GoFundMe page for him so we don't have to keep stopping to put boots in his tires... Very different here. The rolling surface does wear down within 2000mi which is slighlty lower than the 2500mi I could milk out of a Gatorskin. However, I get 2000mi out of every tire while I only got around 1000mi out of the Gatorskins where the sidewalls blew. Are you talking about single track now or are you saying your roads wear tires down more than say Quebec roads? Hard to keep track. And do the Gatorskin tires just blow sidewalls or are you running into ruts or something? Again, my statement goes for _both_ road and offroad. I do not know Quebec roads but ours in California have a lot of debris and are often in very poor condition. Pieces of asphalt broken out and laying on top and such. The result of inept government. On trails the tire torture is of more natural causes, decomposed granite and sharp rocks, some embedded and some rolling. Then both on roads and trails there are these which go into runnig surfaces and sometimes side walls: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goat%2...idum_seeds.jpg A bike shop owner told me that they aren't native but came in from places like Arizona just a few years ago. Anyhow, we've got to deal with all that. All this assumes a tire liner so I can ride tires down to their "last mile". In goat's head thorn country wheer I live a liner is the prudent to do anyhow. Not sure what you mean by a tire liner. ... This: https://www.amazon.com/Mr-Tuffy-Bicy.../dp/B078FHD1ZH Worth every penny. ... It's not like they are optional as far as I know. They are optional. Some tires (supposedly) have something similar built in but my experience is that it fails as soon as the thorn or whatever hits far enough off-center. In addition I have thick thron-resistant tubes in the MTB and road bike tires. For the MTB the tire liner is then sleeved by a reguar good quality tube with the valve stem removed and slit. That combination seems to be indestructable. Which was my goal. -- Regards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com/ |
#56
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Conbtinental has come out with a GP5000S and a GP5000TL
Joerg writes:
On trails the tire torture is of more natural causes, decomposed granite and sharp rocks, some embedded and some rolling. Then both on roads and trails there are these which go into runnig surfaces and sometimes side walls: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goat%2...idum_seeds.jpg A bike shop owner told me that they aren't native but came in from places like Arizona just a few years ago. Anyhow, we've got to deal with all that. Thanks for that. The photo includes both acanthospermum hispidium and tribulus terrestis. I am familiar with the latter from my formative years in New Mexico, but not, apparently, with the thing you call a goat head. I still have an irrational reluctance to ride through even very small sandy areas, because as a kid that almost invariably caused a flat. -- |
#57
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Conbtinental has come out with a GP5000S and a GP5000TL
On 20/02/2019 10:50 a.m., Joerg wrote:
On 2019-02-18 08:39, Duane wrote: On 18/02/2019 10:16 a.m., Joerg wrote: On 2019-02-18 05:35, Duane wrote: On 17/02/2019 10:57 a.m., Joerg wrote: On 2019-02-11 15:32, wrote: On Sunday, February 10, 2019 at 4:54:06 PM UTC-8, Duane wrote: wrote: On Sunday, February 10, 2019 at 3:52:27 PM UTC+1, Duane wrote: wrote: On Saturday, February 9, 2019 at 7:56:22 PM UTC+1, Joerg wrote: On 2019-02-09 09:52, wrote: I learned pretty soon that paying more than $20 for a road bike tire is a waste of money. In fact, they can be worse than expensive tires. Similar for MTB tires. That depends on your riding conditions and requirements. I ride on good roads on my road bikes and get 4500 km out of a Continental 4000S(2) rear tire and expect the same from the 5000 so price is not that important. Lou I get about the same mileage and very few flats.Â* I think I’ve had one flat in the last 10,000km and that was a tube giving out when I hit a pothole hard.Â* I ride on roads but I can’t say they’re always good roads. Maybe Joerg is riding his road bike on single track carrying 4 gallons of water or something... 1-1/2 gallons max, on hot summer days. This is required on some rides unless you carry chlorine tablets, can stomach that taste _and_ suppress any thoughts about what you've seen in the river during kayaking further upstream. So you're riding a road bike on single track carrying 1-1/2 gallons of water.Â* Maybe you have the wrong bike for that. No, I use a 29" FS MTB for that. What I am saying is that the problem with tires is basically the same whether road bike or MTB. Expensive tires are designed towards light weight and performance. Then, their sidewalls fail. My point is that you seem to have different results from anyone I know with respect to tires.Â* I don't know anyone doing any serious mileage on a road bike that thinks cheaper tires are better. I have met lots of road bike riders who have realized that expensive tires just aren't worth it unless you plan to participate in the Amgen Tour, every millisecond counts and a team car is there at your beck and call. Saying that the additional cost is not worth the return for your specific use case is different than saying that cheaper tires are better than expensive tires. They _are_ better. To be "better" isn't necessarily something that has a better cost/performance ratio but somthing that doesn't go KAPOOF during ride. I didn't have flats in years, neither on the MTB nor the road bike. Mission accomplished, I'd say, and it was accomplished by switching to Asian tires. As I said this is different for competitive riders who get a new bike from the team car the second a tire is flat. I do not have a team car, do not belong to that group and never will. Well we do have one guy that buys chinese knock off tires online.Â* He's had so many split tires that we are contemplating a GoFundMe page for him so we don't have to keep stopping to put boots in his tires... Very different here. The rolling surface does wear down within 2000mi which is slighlty lower than the 2500mi I could milk out of a Gatorskin. However, I get 2000mi out of every tire while I only got around 1000mi out of the Gatorskins where the sidewalls blew. Are you talking about single track now or are you saying your roads wear tires down more than say Quebec roads?Â* Hard to keep track.Â* And do the Gatorskin tires just blow sidewalls or are you running into ruts or something? Again, my statement goes for _both_ road and offroad. I do not know Quebec roads but ours in California have a lot of debris and are often in very poor condition. Pieces of asphalt broken out and laying on top and such. The result of inept government. https://www.google.ca/search?q=quebe...CAAQCA#imgrc=_ Here it's partially the government, partially the +/-40 C temperature swings and partially the mob supplying the asphalt. We seem to get by without your tire issues for the most part. I'm getting ~5000km from my Conti 4000s and rarely get flats. I try to avoid potholes but I have hit one that caused my tube to split but I haven't cut a sidewall yet. This happens when you ride in a tight group and the guy in front of you moves to avoid the hole at the last second without warning. But you say you keep yards between you and any other riders so it's hard to understand your issues. Whatever. Use what works for you. On trails the tire torture is of more natural causes, decomposed granite and sharp rocks, some embedded and some rolling. Then both on roads and trails there are these which go into runnig surfaces and sometimes side walls: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goat%2...idum_seeds.jpg If you're talking about trail riding then why do you say road bike? I don't ride my Tarmac on single track unless I can't avoid it which is never. A bike shop owner told me that they aren't native but came in from places like Arizona just a few years ago. Anyhow, we've got to deal with all that. All this assumes a tire liner so I can ride tires down to their "last mile". In goat's head thorn country wheer I live a liner is the prudent to do anyhow. Not sure what you mean by a tire liner. ... This: https://www.amazon.com/Mr-Tuffy-Bicy.../dp/B078FHD1ZH Worth every penny. Â*... It's not like they are optional as far as I know. They are optional. Some tires (supposedly) have something similar built in but my experience is that it fails as soon as the thorn or whatever hits far enough off-center. In addition I have thick thron-resistant tubes in the MTB and road bike tires. For the MTB the tire liner is then sleeved by a reguar good quality tube with the valve stem removed and slit. That combination seems to be indestructable. Which was my goal. |
#58
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Conbtinental has come out with a GP5000S and a GP5000TL
On Wednesday, February 20, 2019 at 9:56:55 AM UTC-8, duane wrote:
On 20/02/2019 10:50 a.m., Joerg wrote: On 2019-02-18 08:39, Duane wrote: On 18/02/2019 10:16 a.m., Joerg wrote: On 2019-02-18 05:35, Duane wrote: On 17/02/2019 10:57 a.m., Joerg wrote: On 2019-02-11 15:32, wrote: On Sunday, February 10, 2019 at 4:54:06 PM UTC-8, Duane wrote: wrote: On Sunday, February 10, 2019 at 3:52:27 PM UTC+1, Duane wrote: wrote: On Saturday, February 9, 2019 at 7:56:22 PM UTC+1, Joerg wrote: On 2019-02-09 09:52, wrote: I learned pretty soon that paying more than $20 for a road bike tire is a waste of money. In fact, they can be worse than expensive tires. Similar for MTB tires. That depends on your riding conditions and requirements. I ride on good roads on my road bikes and get 4500 km out of a Continental 4000S(2) rear tire and expect the same from the 5000 so price is not that important. Lou I get about the same mileage and very few flats.Â* I think I’ve had one flat in the last 10,000km and that was a tube giving out when I hit a pothole hard.Â* I ride on roads but I can’t say they’re always good roads. Maybe Joerg is riding his road bike on single track carrying 4 gallons of water or something... 1-1/2 gallons max, on hot summer days. This is required on some rides unless you carry chlorine tablets, can stomach that taste _and_ suppress any thoughts about what you've seen in the river during kayaking further upstream. So you're riding a road bike on single track carrying 1-1/2 gallons of water.Â* Maybe you have the wrong bike for that. No, I use a 29" FS MTB for that. What I am saying is that the problem with tires is basically the same whether road bike or MTB. Expensive tires are designed towards light weight and performance. Then, their sidewalls fail. My point is that you seem to have different results from anyone I know with respect to tires.Â* I don't know anyone doing any serious mileage on a road bike that thinks cheaper tires are better. I have met lots of road bike riders who have realized that expensive tires just aren't worth it unless you plan to participate in the Amgen Tour, every millisecond counts and a team car is there at your beck and call. Saying that the additional cost is not worth the return for your specific use case is different than saying that cheaper tires are better than expensive tires. They _are_ better. To be "better" isn't necessarily something that has a better cost/performance ratio but somthing that doesn't go KAPOOF during ride. I didn't have flats in years, neither on the MTB nor the road bike. Mission accomplished, I'd say, and it was accomplished by switching to Asian tires. As I said this is different for competitive riders who get a new bike from the team car the second a tire is flat. I do not have a team car, do not belong to that group and never will. Well we do have one guy that buys chinese knock off tires online.Â* He's had so many split tires that we are contemplating a GoFundMe page for him so we don't have to keep stopping to put boots in his tires... Very different here. The rolling surface does wear down within 2000mi which is slighlty lower than the 2500mi I could milk out of a Gatorskin. However, I get 2000mi out of every tire while I only got around 1000mi out of the Gatorskins where the sidewalls blew. Are you talking about single track now or are you saying your roads wear tires down more than say Quebec roads?Â* Hard to keep track.Â* And do the Gatorskin tires just blow sidewalls or are you running into ruts or something? Again, my statement goes for _both_ road and offroad. I do not know Quebec roads but ours in California have a lot of debris and are often in very poor condition. Pieces of asphalt broken out and laying on top and such. The result of inept government. https://www.google.ca/search?q=quebe...CAAQCA#imgrc=_ Here it's partially the government, partially the +/-40 C temperature swings and partially the mob supplying the asphalt. We seem to get by without your tire issues for the most part. I'm getting ~5000km from my Conti 4000s and rarely get flats. I try to avoid potholes but I have hit one that caused my tube to split but I haven't cut a sidewall yet. This happens when you ride in a tight group and the guy in front of you moves to avoid the hole at the last second without warning. But you say you keep yards between you and any other riders so it's hard to understand your issues. Whatever. Use what works for you. On trails the tire torture is of more natural causes, decomposed granite and sharp rocks, some embedded and some rolling. Then both on roads and trails there are these which go into runnig surfaces and sometimes side walls: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goat%2...idum_seeds.jpg If you're talking about trail riding then why do you say road bike? I don't ride my Tarmac on single track unless I can't avoid it which is never. A bike shop owner told me that they aren't native but came in from places like Arizona just a few years ago. Anyhow, we've got to deal with all that. All this assumes a tire liner so I can ride tires down to their "last mile". In goat's head thorn country wheer I live a liner is the prudent to do anyhow. Not sure what you mean by a tire liner. ... This: https://www.amazon.com/Mr-Tuffy-Bicy.../dp/B078FHD1ZH Worth every penny. Â*... It's not like they are optional as far as I know. They are optional. Some tires (supposedly) have something similar built in but my experience is that it fails as soon as the thorn or whatever hits far enough off-center. In addition I have thick thron-resistant tubes in the MTB and road bike tires. For the MTB the tire liner is then sleeved by a reguar good quality tube with the valve stem removed and slit. That combination seems to be indestructable. Which was my goal. My experience with cheap tires was absolutely horrible. They flatted if you look sideways at them and they wore out so rapidly that they cost more than using more expensive longer wearing tires. I'm sort of wondering just how far over the edge that Joerg is willing to take his tires before replacing them. I very rarely get more than 2,500 miles on the very longest wearing tires. I believe that he is approximately my size and yet he gets almost twice that distance if I understand him correctly. Or we can go with Frank's previous claim that the graphene layer in my Vittoria tires doesn't protect anything because a layer only 8 molecules thick couldn't possibly protect anything. http://www.ukm.my/jsm/pdf_files/SM-P...in%20Chong.pdf This was a test in medical gloves that have to have several times the stretch of tires and yet even the very small pieces of graphene yielded an 11% increase in puncture resistance. The Vittoria tires have overlapping sheets of the material making it very puncture resistant. Now these most certainly aren't in the realm of Joerg's "cheap tires" but they are made in Thailand. |
#59
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Conbtinental has come out with a GP5000S and a GP5000TL
On Wednesday, February 20, 2019 at 9:56:55 AM UTC-8, duane wrote:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goat%2...idum_seeds.jpg If you're talking about trail riding then why do you say road bike? I don't ride my Tarmac on single track unless I can't avoid it which is never. I wouldn't ride a carbon fiber road bike off-road but I ride my older steel bikes off-road all the time. I don't use any special tires and the bay trails are often composes of decomposed granite or those large round stones that are perhaps more than an inch deep so that you have to be careful of your traction. |
#60
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Conbtinental has come out with a GP5000S and a GP5000TL
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