Weird mechanical problem

Yesterday we rode with a friend. At times during the ride, her bike was
making a very loud clicking noise, very sporadically, only while
pedaling. It wasn't synchronized with crank rotation, wheel rotation,
chain rotation or anything else I could spot. Gear selection didn't seem
to matter. It would pop up for a few seconds then go completely silent
for very long periods. Sometimes they were sort of double clicks, mostly
single clicks.

We stopped, I inspected everything and found nothing wrong except her
left pedal had lots of bearing slack. Her bike is a Trek touring bike,
nearly all original, and these are SR pedals from the 1980s with
replaceable balls. I offered to work on it when we got back to my house.

I put the pedal in the bench vise, removed all the 1/8" balls, cleaned
and inspected and saw nothing wrong except terribly loose cone
adjustment. Put in new 1/8" balls with new grease and adjusted the bearings.

Here's the weird part. Adjustment was very touchy, going from slightly
loose everywhere to slightly binding at just one spot. At that spot, the
resistance or drag would appear, then disappear as I rotated the spindle
back and forth through maybe 30 degrees.

The resistance would not be enough to really interfere with pedaling -
it was very easily overcome with my finger and thumb - but it's just not
right. And I'm having trouble visualizing what could be going on in
there. It's not like I haven't done this before!

I'm sure a bike shop would say "Just put in new pedals," since the labor
I already put in would be more expensive. And she has a spare set. She
just likes these better, so I'd like to get them fixed for her.

Any clues what might be wrong?

--
- Frank Krygowski

On Saturday, November 7, 2020 at 10:22:31 AM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
Yesterday we rode with a friend. At times during the ride, her bike was
making a very loud clicking noise, very sporadically, only while
pedaling. It wasn't synchronized with crank rotation, wheel rotation,
chain rotation or anything else I could spot. Gear selection didn't seem
to matter. It would pop up for a few seconds then go completely silent
for very long periods. Sometimes they were sort of double clicks, mostly
single clicks.

We stopped, I inspected everything and found nothing wrong except her
left pedal had lots of bearing slack. Her bike is a Trek touring bike,
nearly all original, and these are SR pedals from the 1980s with
replaceable balls. I offered to work on it when we got back to my house.

I put the pedal in the bench vise, removed all the 1/8" balls, cleaned
and inspected and saw nothing wrong except terribly loose cone
adjustment. Put in new 1/8" balls with new grease and adjusted the bearings.

Here's the weird part. Adjustment was very touchy, going from slightly
loose everywhere to slightly binding at just one spot. At that spot, the
resistance or drag would appear, then disappear as I rotated the spindle
back and forth through maybe 30 degrees.

The resistance would not be enough to really interfere with pedaling -
it was very easily overcome with my finger and thumb - but it's just not
right. And I'm having trouble visualizing what could be going on in
there. It's not like I haven't done this before!

I'm sure a bike shop would say "Just put in new pedals," since the labor
I already put in would be more expensive. And she has a spare set. She
just likes these better, so I'd like to get them fixed for her.

Any clues what might be wrong?

--
- Frank Krygowski

First, make sure your friend does not have a lose prosthesis or bad knees -- or folded paper, change or keys in her front pocket. Noise can come from the strangest places. Second, get new pedals.

All the internals could be deformed in some invisible way. You could even have a loose bearing cup. With cheap pedals, it's hard getting a good adjustment because you have sloppy threads and parts that deform under load -- either end loading when you tighten the lock nuts or just pedal load. Working on cheap equipment, its always approximating and choosing the best of the bad adjustments, and things finally wear to the point where the best of the bad adjustments is unacceptable.

-- Jay Beattie.

On 11/7/2020 12:22 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
Yesterday we rode with a friend. At times during the ride,
her bike was making a very loud clicking noise, very
sporadically, only while pedaling. It wasn't synchronized
with crank rotation, wheel rotation, chain rotation or
anything else I could spot. Gear selection didn't seem to
matter. It would pop up for a few seconds then go completely
silent for very long periods. Sometimes they were sort of
double clicks, mostly single clicks.

We stopped, I inspected everything and found nothing wrong
except her left pedal had lots of bearing slack. Her bike is
a Trek touring bike, nearly all original, and these are SR
pedals from the 1980s with replaceable balls. I offered to
work on it when we got back to my house.

I put the pedal in the bench vise, removed all the 1/8"
balls, cleaned and inspected and saw nothing wrong except
terribly loose cone adjustment. Put in new 1/8" balls with
new grease and adjusted the bearings.

Here's the weird part. Adjustment was very touchy, going
from slightly loose everywhere to slightly binding at just
one spot. At that spot, the resistance or drag would appear,
then disappear as I rotated the spindle back and forth
through maybe 30 degrees.

The resistance would not be enough to really interfere with
pedaling - it was very easily overcome with my finger and
thumb - but it's just not right. And I'm having trouble
visualizing what could be going on in there. It's not like I
haven't done this before!

I'm sure a bike shop would say "Just put in new pedals,"
since the labor I already put in would be more expensive.
And she has a spare set. She just likes these better, so I'd
like to get them fixed for her.

Any clues what might be wrong?


Bent pedal spindle is extremely rare. They snap in crashes
but almost never bend.

That leaves a nick or pit in one of the bearing surfaces.
Did you check those in a strong light? At our age a
magnifier is indicated as well.

Did her noise go away after pedal rebuild? From your 1st
paragraph I was thinking seatpost or handlebar/stem noise.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Saturday, November 7, 2020 at 1:49:58 PM UTC-5, AMuzi wrote:
On 11/7/2020 12:22 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
Yesterday we rode with a friend. At times during the ride,
her bike was making a very loud clicking noise, very
sporadically, only while pedaling. It wasn't synchronized
with crank rotation, wheel rotation, chain rotation or
anything else I could spot. Gear selection didn't seem to
matter. It would pop up for a few seconds then go completely
silent for very long periods. Sometimes they were sort of
double clicks, mostly single clicks.

We stopped, I inspected everything and found nothing wrong
except her left pedal had lots of bearing slack. Her bike is
a Trek touring bike, nearly all original, and these are SR
pedals from the 1980s with replaceable balls. I offered to
work on it when we got back to my house.

I put the pedal in the bench vise, removed all the 1/8"
balls, cleaned and inspected and saw nothing wrong except
terribly loose cone adjustment. Put in new 1/8" balls with
new grease and adjusted the bearings.

Here's the weird part. Adjustment was very touchy, going
from slightly loose everywhere to slightly binding at just
one spot. At that spot, the resistance or drag would appear,
then disappear as I rotated the spindle back and forth
through maybe 30 degrees.

The resistance would not be enough to really interfere with
pedaling - it was very easily overcome with my finger and
thumb - but it's just not right. And I'm having trouble
visualizing what could be going on in there. It's not like I
haven't done this before!

I'm sure a bike shop would say "Just put in new pedals,"
since the labor I already put in would be more expensive.
And she has a spare set. She just likes these better, so I'd
like to get them fixed for her.

Any clues what might be wrong?

Bent pedal spindle is extremely rare. They snap in crashes
but almost never bend.

That leaves a nick or pit in one of the bearing surfaces.
Did you check those in a strong light? At our age a
magnifier is indicated as well.

Did her noise go away after pedal rebuild? From your 1st
paragraph I was thinking seatpost or handlebar/stem noise.

I'd have thought stem noise might have been possible, but I've experienced that
mostly when putting some extra force on the bars. I heard the noise as I rode
beside her on level ground as slow as 10 mph. Also, she said she could feel the
clicks in her feet as they happened. (And yes, I inspected the races carefully.)

She phoned today and said the noise is much, much quieter and still very sporadic, but
still present. Tomorrow she's bringing her bike back, plus her spare pedals.

I think Jay has an interesting idea about the loose bearing cup, although I've
never seen that.

I don't think these pedals were very cheap. She claims her bike was
the second-from-the-top touring bike by Trek, back in the mid-1980s. She did say the
top of the line bike had all sealed bearings, but I'd have thought this bike would have
had good equipment.

The pedals are old, though, and I think she consistently does well over 4000 miles per year.
The bike has toured the Appalachians, the Rockies, etc. etc. I'm sure it deserves new pedals -
but the mechanical weirdness has my curiosity in gear.

- Frank Krygowski

On Sat, 7 Nov 2020 13:22:27 -0500, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

Yesterday we rode with a friend. At times during the ride, her bike was
making a very loud clicking noise, very sporadically, only while
pedaling. It wasn't synchronized with crank rotation, wheel rotation,
chain rotation or anything else I could spot...

Can I guess(tm)?

Asynchronous noises are usually caused by two or more damaged
components that only make a noise when they come into alignment. If
there was a depression in both the bearing cup and the spindle, that
might produce a clicking noise when the two damaged surfaces come into
alignment. However, that would not explain the rather long time
between clicks. The third part of the puzzle might be single ball
with a flat spot. The time of all three parts to come into alignment
seems about right for a "long" period.

Assuming I'm correct, how could a pedal be damaged when aligned in
three places? Corrosion would be my guess(tm). If the bicycle was
sitting in one place, in a wet environment, with no grease on the
bearings, water could build up around the lowest part of the bearing.

I've seen rusted bearings, rusted cups, and rusted spindles, but I've
never done a post mortem to see if the rusted areas aligned in the
position the pedal was stored. I do exactly what you did, which is
disassemble, clean, replace the balls, grease, and adjust.

I have no idea why it would be so tricky to adjust, unless the cup is
out of round or something else is mangled.

Ask the owner if the bicycle was stored in a fixed position for a few
months in a potentially wet environment.


--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

On 11/7/2020 3:36 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Saturday, November 7, 2020 at 1:49:58 PM UTC-5, AMuzi wrote:
On 11/7/2020 12:22 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
Yesterday we rode with a friend. At times during the ride,
her bike was making a very loud clicking noise, very
sporadically, only while pedaling. It wasn't synchronized
with crank rotation, wheel rotation, chain rotation or
anything else I could spot. Gear selection didn't seem to
matter. It would pop up for a few seconds then go completely
silent for very long periods. Sometimes they were sort of
double clicks, mostly single clicks.

We stopped, I inspected everything and found nothing wrong
except her left pedal had lots of bearing slack. Her bike is
a Trek touring bike, nearly all original, and these are SR
pedals from the 1980s with replaceable balls. I offered to
work on it when we got back to my house.

I put the pedal in the bench vise, removed all the 1/8"
balls, cleaned and inspected and saw nothing wrong except
terribly loose cone adjustment. Put in new 1/8" balls with
new grease and adjusted the bearings.

Here's the weird part. Adjustment was very touchy, going
from slightly loose everywhere to slightly binding at just
one spot. At that spot, the resistance or drag would appear,
then disappear as I rotated the spindle back and forth
through maybe 30 degrees.

The resistance would not be enough to really interfere with
pedaling - it was very easily overcome with my finger and
thumb - but it's just not right. And I'm having trouble
visualizing what could be going on in there. It's not like I
haven't done this before!

I'm sure a bike shop would say "Just put in new pedals,"
since the labor I already put in would be more expensive.
And she has a spare set. She just likes these better, so I'd
like to get them fixed for her.

Any clues what might be wrong?

Bent pedal spindle is extremely rare. They snap in crashes
but almost never bend.

That leaves a nick or pit in one of the bearing surfaces.
Did you check those in a strong light? At our age a
magnifier is indicated as well.

Did her noise go away after pedal rebuild? From your 1st
paragraph I was thinking seatpost or handlebar/stem noise.

I'd have thought stem noise might have been possible, but I've experienced that
mostly when putting some extra force on the bars. I heard the noise as I rode
beside her on level ground as slow as 10 mph. Also, she said she could feel the
clicks in her feet as they happened. (And yes, I inspected the races carefully.)

She phoned today and said the noise is much, much quieter and still very sporadic, but
still present. Tomorrow she's bringing her bike back, plus her spare pedals.

I think Jay has an interesting idea about the loose bearing cup, although I've
never seen that.

I don't think these pedals were very cheap. She claims her bike was
the second-from-the-top touring bike by Trek, back in the mid-1980s. She did say the
top of the line bike had all sealed bearings, but I'd have thought this bike would have
had good equipment.

The pedals are old, though, and I think she consistently does well over 4000 miles per year.
The bike has toured the Appalachians, the Rockies, etc. etc. I'm sure it deserves new pedals -
but the mechanical weirdness has my curiosity in gear.

- Frank Krygowski


One piece aluminum body SR-Sakae pedals are a quality item
but then again this set is some 40 years old. Interested in
what you find.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Saturday, November 7, 2020 at 2:07:25 PM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:

One piece aluminum body SR-Sakae pedals are a quality item
but then again this set is some 40 years old. Interested in
what you find.

My suggestion would be a great deal simpler. The front derailleur in set too low and rubs against the step teeth of the large chainring if the derailleur isn't set all the way clear of the ring.

Op zaterdag 7 november 2020 om 22:36:48 UTC+1 schreef :
On Saturday, November 7, 2020 at 1:49:58 PM UTC-5, AMuzi wrote:
On 11/7/2020 12:22 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
Yesterday we rode with a friend. At times during the ride,
her bike was making a very loud clicking noise, very
sporadically, only while pedaling. It wasn't synchronized
with crank rotation, wheel rotation, chain rotation or
anything else I could spot. Gear selection didn't seem to
matter. It would pop up for a few seconds then go completely
silent for very long periods. Sometimes they were sort of
double clicks, mostly single clicks.

We stopped, I inspected everything and found nothing wrong
except her left pedal had lots of bearing slack. Her bike is
a Trek touring bike, nearly all original, and these are SR
pedals from the 1980s with replaceable balls. I offered to
work on it when we got back to my house.

I put the pedal in the bench vise, removed all the 1/8"
balls, cleaned and inspected and saw nothing wrong except
terribly loose cone adjustment. Put in new 1/8" balls with
new grease and adjusted the bearings.

Here's the weird part. Adjustment was very touchy, going
from slightly loose everywhere to slightly binding at just
one spot. At that spot, the resistance or drag would appear,
then disappear as I rotated the spindle back and forth
through maybe 30 degrees.

The resistance would not be enough to really interfere with
pedaling - it was very easily overcome with my finger and
thumb - but it's just not right. And I'm having trouble
visualizing what could be going on in there. It's not like I
haven't done this before!

I'm sure a bike shop would say "Just put in new pedals,"
since the labor I already put in would be more expensive.
And she has a spare set. She just likes these better, so I'd
like to get them fixed for her.

Any clues what might be wrong?

Bent pedal spindle is extremely rare. They snap in crashes
but almost never bend.

That leaves a nick or pit in one of the bearing surfaces.
Did you check those in a strong light? At our age a
magnifier is indicated as well.

Did her noise go away after pedal rebuild? From your 1st
paragraph I was thinking seatpost or handlebar/stem noise.
I'd have thought stem noise might have been possible, but I've experienced that
mostly when putting some extra force on the bars. I heard the noise as I rode
beside her on level ground as slow as 10 mph. Also, she said she could feel the
clicks in her feet as they happened. (And yes, I inspected the races carefully.)

She phoned today and said the noise is much, much quieter and still very sporadic, but
still present. Tomorrow she's bringing her bike back, plus her spare pedals.

I think Jay has an interesting idea about the loose bearing cup, although I've
never seen that.

I don't think these pedals were very cheap. She claims her bike was
the second-from-the-top touring bike by Trek, back in the mid-1980s. She did say the
top of the line bike had all sealed bearings, but I'd have thought this bike would have
had good equipment.

The pedals are old, though, and I think she consistently does well over 4000 miles per year.
The bike has toured the Appalachians, the Rockies, etc. etc. I'm sure it deserves new pedals -
but the mechanical weirdness has my curiosity in gear.

- Frank Krygowski


You put in new bearing balls. I think that is the problem. It is like putting on a new chain on a worn cassette. After 40 years the pedals deserve a peaceful retirement.

Lou

On 11/7/2020 4:55 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Sat, 7 Nov 2020 13:22:27 -0500, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

Yesterday we rode with a friend. At times during the ride, her bike was
making a very loud clicking noise, very sporadically, only while
pedaling. It wasn't synchronized with crank rotation, wheel rotation,
chain rotation or anything else I could spot...

Can I guess(tm)?

Asynchronous noises are usually caused by two or more damaged
components that only make a noise when they come into alignment. If
there was a depression in both the bearing cup and the spindle, that
might produce a clicking noise when the two damaged surfaces come into
alignment. However, that would not explain the rather long time
between clicks. The third part of the puzzle might be single ball
with a flat spot. The time of all three parts to come into alignment
seems about right for a "long" period.

Perhaps I should explain a bit more about the long periods of silence.
They were often much more than fifteen minutes. In fact, we rode for
over an hour before I heard (or at least noticed) the clicks. Granted,
she was usually quite a few feet behind me, but not always.

And the clicks were amazingly loud. Not just a mild "tick tick" - more
like "Wow! What's that noise your bike is making!" - impossible to ignore.

Assuming I'm correct, how could a pedal be damaged when aligned in
three places? Corrosion would be my guess(tm). If the bicycle was
sitting in one place, in a wet environment, with no grease on the
bearings, water could build up around the lowest part of the bearing.

I've seen rusted bearings, rusted cups, and rusted spindles, but I've
never done a post mortem to see if the rusted areas aligned in the
position the pedal was stored. I do exactly what you did, which is
disassemble, clean, replace the balls, grease, and adjust.

Yep. I expect she'll be willing to leave the pedal with me. I'll
disassemble again to re-inspect, just for curiosity. Maybe I can get
some decent photos. But I know good closeup photos of tiny mechanical
parts are not simple.

I have no idea why it would be so tricky to adjust, unless the cup is
out of round or something else is mangled.

Ask the owner if the bicycle was stored in a fixed position for a few
months in a potentially wet environment.

This is one of our best friends. Her bike is very well cared for -
actually pristine. It's stored in an attached (semi-heated) garage.

One possibility has since occurred to me: I counted the balls I removed
(13 & 10 IIRC) and replaced the same numbers (inner and outer), but I
have no guarantee that those numbers were correct. I wonder if (say) the
inner race was short one ball. If the resulting gap between balls
happened to line up with a slight eccentricity on either the pedal axle
or pedal body, it might allow contact where there should be a tiny
clearance.

I can envision such a problem being much worse when the adjustment was
as bad as this one was, and becoming much reduced but not cured with
proper adjustment. (But who knows how it ever came out of adjustment...)

I'll report further after another disassembly.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On 11/7/2020 5:19 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Saturday, November 7, 2020 at 2:07:25 PM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:

One piece aluminum body SR-Sakae pedals are a quality item
but then again this set is some 40 years old. Interested in
what you find.

My suggestion would be a great deal simpler. The front derailleur in set too low and rubs against the step teeth of the large chainring if the derailleur isn't set all the way clear of the ring.

Re-read my original paragraph that starts "Here's the weird part." There
is definitely a problem in the pedal.


--
- Frank Krygowski