Weird mechanical problem

On Sunday, November 29, 2020 at 5:34:49 PM UTC-8, jbeattie wrote:
On Sunday, November 29, 2020 at 4:50:42 PM UTC-8, Steve Weeks wrote:
On Sunday, November 29, 2020 at 5:05:33 PM UTC-6, wrote:
Every great once in awhile you can find a caged bearing that has broken its cage and has dumped all of the bearings out into the nearest space if any is available.
I think I missed Machine Shop 101, but I've never seen a ball bearing cage that was the thing that kept the balls in the races. In my (admittedly limited) experience, most of the high-end bearings (eg, Shimano Ultegra) do not have cages, and those bearings with cages (eg, Motobecane bottom bracket) perform fine after substitution with loose balls. It would seem the races would have to be quite loose to permit the bearing balls to escape.
TK uses a lot of Italian BBs that have a tendency to unscrew, so maybe his BB unscrewed so far that he was shedding balls out of a broken retainer. Mine never loosened that far because it means your crank is basically banging around in the BB.

Indeed on one occasion the left side bearing did come loose but being a cut the bearings remained intact. It on required tightening and using a bit of Loctite.

On Sunday, November 29, 2020 at 7:26:40 PM UTC-8, wrote:
On Sun, 29 Nov 2020 15:05:30 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich
wrote:

It appears that my messages aren't loading properly
again so I'll repeat this:
(...)

Frank mentioned several times in this thread that he's working with
loose ball bearings. There were no sealed or caged bearing involved.
Come on, Jeff, this was machine shop 101.
That's odd. Your traditional implied insult normally appears at the
beginning of your message. This time it appeared at the end. Is
something wrong?

Since you seem to find it insulting to be informed about bearings why don't you tell us all what you know about bearings and why they are constructed in the manner that they are. The bombing system in our B52s was very slightly updated from B29's so we had to know about ball bearings and we had classes and tests on them. Where did you get your knowledge of bearings?

On Sunday, November 29, 2020 at 8:24:06 PM UTC-6, AMuzi wrote:

Examples include Campagnolo classic crank retainers, much
copied to good effect, with eleven balls. Retainers exist
with nine and even the REG nylon retainer with seven. They
all fit equally well but longevity may suffer.
Yeah, my old Motobecane Mirage had seven balls on each side. I replaced the crank axle a couple times before the most recent overhaul, when I ditched the retainers and installed 11 balls per side.
FWIW, this bike has a nice alloy seatpost I purchased from you a few years ago. :-)

On Monday, November 30, 2020 at 10:38:41 AM UTC-6, wrote:

Perhaps you'd like to inform me how you think that flat ball bearing races could possibly be loaded with more than about 1/3 of a full load of balls?

I've never seen a "flat" ball bearing race.

Steve, you certainly must have missed Machine Shop. And you must not have worked on many bicycle bottom brackets. That you've never seen a broken cage obviously means that they never occur correct?

This is correct. I *did* have machine shop in high school, but you could count on a couple hands how many BBs I've worked on. I'm a dentist... how many am I supposed to have worked on? ;-)
I didn't actually say I'd never seen a broken cage; I've seen a couple, but the balls were still in their proper locations.
Cheers!

On Mon, 30 Nov 2020 08:45:52 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich
wrote:

On Sunday, November 29, 2020 at 7:26:40 PM UTC-8, wrote:
On Sun, 29 Nov 2020 15:05:30 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich
wrote:

It appears that my messages aren't loading properly
again so I'll repeat this:
(...)

Frank mentioned several times in this thread that he's working with
loose ball bearings. There were no sealed or caged bearing involved.
Come on, Jeff, this was machine shop 101.
That's odd. Your traditional implied insult normally appears at the
beginning of your message. This time it appeared at the end. Is
something wrong?

Since you seem to find it insulting to be informed about bearings
why don't you tell us all what you know about bearings and why they
are constructed in the manner that they are.

Why don't I tell you? That's easy. Because I'm busy and don't really
feel inspired to provide you with an education on bearings. I could
provide additional reasons why I don't tell you, but that will need to
wait until my blood pressure meds take effect.

The bombing system in
our B52s was very slightly updated from B29's so we had to know
about ball bearings and we had classes and tests on them. Where did
you get your knowledge of bearings?

In college, I studied electrical and electronic engineering. I did
take a few mechanical engineering classes. The one that taught me the
most about bearings and lubrication was Tractor Mechanics. Also, by
helping build several Rose Floats:
https://www.rosefloat.org/about-rose-float
http://www.learnbydestroying.com/jeffl/pics/jeffl/index.html#RoseFloat01.jpg
At various times before and after college, I was involved in building
dune buggies, a Baja 500 car, an engine rebuild on my 1960 Ford
Falcon, and a transmission rebuild on my 1970 Land Rover Series IIa.
All these had bearings in them, although my involvement with
specifying and replacing them was minimal.

At various times, I worked for my father as a "mechanic" in his
lingerie factory in Smog Angeles. My guess(tm) there were about 700
sewing machines in the building. Most were in storage until needed
and only about 120 were on the factory floor at any time. Industrial
sewing machines are full of bearing of all shape and type. Lubrication
is crude, with splash lubrication from an oil sump being the norm.
Sealed bearing were used only where there was a risk of getting oil on
the material (usually nylon net). Most of what I did was rebuilds,
cleaning, and a few repairs.

Most recently, I was involved in converting a CNC conversion on a
Shizuoka vertical mill.
http://www.learnbydestroying.com/jeffl/pics/CNC-conversion/index.html
Most of my involvement was in the electronics and servos, but that
changed when we discovered that spindle required rebuilding. Selecting
the bearings was difficult and required quite a bit of reading and
catalog searching. To make matters difficult, the spindle had
previously been rebuilt which involved some creative bearing
substitutions. Here's my spreadsheet of the bearings I purchased for
the project. My guess(tm) is this saved about $800.
http://www.learnbydestroying.com/jeffl/CNC%20Conversion%20Project/Shizuoka%20Bearings3.xlsx

As for bearing in bicycles, I did the usual cleaning, rebuilding,
adjusting, repairing, lubricating, and chasing down noises. I've had
no formal education in bicycle mechanics. It was just figure out how
it works, figure out what was wrong, read the books as needed, and go
for a ride to see if it worked. I made plenty of mistakes, but rarely
repeated them.

On my bookshelf are the usual books. Machinery Handbooks, Ingenious
Mechanisms for Designers and Inventors (4 vols), Kent's Mechanical
Engineers Pocket-Book (1910), Power Transmission Design Handbook
(1961), and a few mechical engineering books. There's something about
bearings in all of these books, but they go further into kinematics
and motion control which I consider to be more interesting.

Now, I have a question for you. At some time in the distant past, I
tore apart an aviation X-band radar set. Sorry, but I don't recall
the designation. None of the numbers listed below sound familiar:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Military_radars_of_the_United_States
Among the parts I salvage, there were a few strange bearings. They
were about 1.5" dia, had very conventional inner and outer races,
balls, but had a rather odd cage system. For spacing the bearings, it
used ordinary coil springs. Something like 8 ball bearings with 8
springs. I still have these buried somewhere in my house, but can't
find them right now, or I would post a link to a photo. Any idea what
these are called or who makes them? I've been digging through Google
Photos for the past 30 mins and getting nowhere.



--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

On Mon, 30 Nov 2020 22:57:44 -0800, Jeff Liebermann
wrote:

On Mon, 30 Nov 2020 08:45:52 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich
wrote:

On Sunday, November 29, 2020 at 7:26:40 PM UTC-8, wrote:
On Sun, 29 Nov 2020 15:05:30 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich
wrote:

It appears that my messages aren't loading properly
again so I'll repeat this:
(...)

Frank mentioned several times in this thread that he's working with
loose ball bearings. There were no sealed or caged bearing involved.
Come on, Jeff, this was machine shop 101.
That's odd. Your traditional implied insult normally appears at the
beginning of your message. This time it appeared at the end. Is
something wrong?

Since you seem to find it insulting to be informed about bearings
why don't you tell us all what you know about bearings and why they
are constructed in the manner that they are.

Why don't I tell you? That's easy. Because I'm busy and don't really
feel inspired to provide you with an education on bearings. I could
provide additional reasons why I don't tell you, but that will need to
wait until my blood pressure meds take effect.

The bombing system in
our B52s was very slightly updated from B29's so we had to know
about ball bearings and we had classes and tests on them. Where did
you get your knowledge of bearings?

In college, I studied electrical and electronic engineering. I did
take a few mechanical engineering classes. The one that taught me the
most about bearings and lubrication was Tractor Mechanics. Also, by
helping build several Rose Floats:
https://www.rosefloat.org/about-rose-float
http://www.learnbydestroying.com/jeffl/pics/jeffl/index.html#RoseFloat01.jpg
At various times before and after college, I was involved in building
dune buggies, a Baja 500 car, an engine rebuild on my 1960 Ford
Falcon, and a transmission rebuild on my 1970 Land Rover Series IIa.
All these had bearings in them, although my involvement with
specifying and replacing them was minimal.

At various times, I worked for my father as a "mechanic" in his
lingerie factory in Smog Angeles. My guess(tm) there were about 700
sewing machines in the building. Most were in storage until needed
and only about 120 were on the factory floor at any time. Industrial
sewing machines are full of bearing of all shape and type. Lubrication
is crude, with splash lubrication from an oil sump being the norm.
Sealed bearing were used only where there was a risk of getting oil on
the material (usually nylon net). Most of what I did was rebuilds,
cleaning, and a few repairs.

Most recently, I was involved in converting a CNC conversion on a
Shizuoka vertical mill.
http://www.learnbydestroying.com/jeffl/pics/CNC-conversion/index.html
Most of my involvement was in the electronics and servos, but that
changed when we discovered that spindle required rebuilding. Selecting
the bearings was difficult and required quite a bit of reading and
catalog searching. To make matters difficult, the spindle had
previously been rebuilt which involved some creative bearing
substitutions. Here's my spreadsheet of the bearings I purchased for
the project. My guess(tm) is this saved about $800.
http://www.learnbydestroying.com/jeffl/CNC%20Conversion%20Project/Shizuoka%20Bearings3.xlsx

As for bearing in bicycles, I did the usual cleaning, rebuilding,
adjusting, repairing, lubricating, and chasing down noises. I've had
no formal education in bicycle mechanics. It was just figure out how
it works, figure out what was wrong, read the books as needed, and go
for a ride to see if it worked. I made plenty of mistakes, but rarely
repeated them.

On my bookshelf are the usual books. Machinery Handbooks, Ingenious
Mechanisms for Designers and Inventors (4 vols), Kent's Mechanical
Engineers Pocket-Book (1910), Power Transmission Design Handbook
(1961), and a few mechical engineering books. There's something about
bearings in all of these books, but they go further into kinematics
and motion control which I consider to be more interesting.

Now, I have a question for you. At some time in the distant past, I
tore apart an aviation X-band radar set. Sorry, but I don't recall
the designation. None of the numbers listed below sound familiar:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Military_radars_of_the_United_States
Among the parts I salvage, there were a few strange bearings. They
were about 1.5" dia, had very conventional inner and outer races,
balls, but had a rather odd cage system. For spacing the bearings, it
used ordinary coil springs. Something like 8 ball bearings with 8
springs. I still have these buried somewhere in my house, but can't
find them right now, or I would post a link to a photo. Any idea what
these are called or who makes them? I've been digging through Google
Photos for the past 30 mins and getting nowhere.

Not to join the debate but perhaps something like
https://patents.google.com/patent/US3037827
if you download the pdf you get a larger drawing.
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Monday, November 30, 2020 at 7:02:12 PM UTC-8, Steve Weeks wrote:
On Monday, November 30, 2020 at 10:38:41 AM UTC-6, wrote:

Perhaps you'd like to inform me how you think that flat ball bearing races could possibly be loaded with more than about 1/3 of a full load of balls?

I've never seen a "flat" ball bearing race.

Steve, you certainly must have missed Machine Shop. And you must not have worked on many bicycle bottom brackets. That you've never seen a broken cage obviously means that they never occur correct?

This is correct. I *did* have machine shop in high school, but you could count on a couple hands how many BBs I've worked on. I'm a dentist... how many am I supposed to have worked on? ;-)
I didn't actually say I'd never seen a broken cage; I've seen a couple, but the balls were still in their proper locations.
Cheers!
Why is it that you purposely misunderstand what I mean when I say flat races? Does that in some manner add to the conversation? I explained these things and the whys and wherefores and what I get is arguments for nothing more than arguments sake, why is that? Virtually all of this is available in any bearing manual so why would you pretend that it isn't so?

On Monday, November 30, 2020 at 10:57:54 PM UTC-8, wrote:
On Mon, 30 Nov 2020 08:45:52 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich
wrote:

On Sunday, November 29, 2020 at 7:26:40 PM UTC-8, wrote:
On Sun, 29 Nov 2020 15:05:30 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich
wrote:

It appears that my messages aren't loading properly
again so I'll repeat this:
(...)

Frank mentioned several times in this thread that he's working with
loose ball bearings. There were no sealed or caged bearing involved.
Come on, Jeff, this was machine shop 101.
That's odd. Your traditional implied insult normally appears at the
beginning of your message. This time it appeared at the end. Is
something wrong?

Since you seem to find it insulting to be informed about bearings
why don't you tell us all what you know about bearings and why they
are constructed in the manner that they are.
Why don't I tell you? That's easy. Because I'm busy and don't really
feel inspired to provide you with an education on bearings. I could
provide additional reasons why I don't tell you, but that will need to
wait until my blood pressure meds take effect.
The bombing system in
our B52s was very slightly updated from B29's so we had to know
about ball bearings and we had classes and tests on them. Where did
you get your knowledge of bearings?
In college, I studied electrical and electronic engineering. I did
take a few mechanical engineering classes. The one that taught me the
most about bearings and lubrication was Tractor Mechanics. Also, by
helping build several Rose Floats:
https://www.rosefloat.org/about-rose-float
http://www.learnbydestroying.com/jeffl/pics/jeffl/index.html#RoseFloat01..jpg
At various times before and after college, I was involved in building
dune buggies, a Baja 500 car, an engine rebuild on my 1960 Ford
Falcon, and a transmission rebuild on my 1970 Land Rover Series IIa.
All these had bearings in them, although my involvement with
specifying and replacing them was minimal.

At various times, I worked for my father as a "mechanic" in his
lingerie factory in Smog Angeles. My guess(tm) there were about 700
sewing machines in the building. Most were in storage until needed
and only about 120 were on the factory floor at any time. Industrial
sewing machines are full of bearing of all shape and type. Lubrication
is crude, with splash lubrication from an oil sump being the norm.
Sealed bearing were used only where there was a risk of getting oil on
the material (usually nylon net). Most of what I did was rebuilds,
cleaning, and a few repairs.

Most recently, I was involved in converting a CNC conversion on a
Shizuoka vertical mill.
http://www.learnbydestroying.com/jeffl/pics/CNC-conversion/index.html
Most of my involvement was in the electronics and servos, but that
changed when we discovered that spindle required rebuilding. Selecting
the bearings was difficult and required quite a bit of reading and
catalog searching. To make matters difficult, the spindle had
previously been rebuilt which involved some creative bearing
substitutions. Here's my spreadsheet of the bearings I purchased for
the project. My guess(tm) is this saved about $800.
http://www.learnbydestroying.com/jeffl/CNC%20Conversion%20Project/Shizuoka%20Bearings3.xlsx

As for bearing in bicycles, I did the usual cleaning, rebuilding,
adjusting, repairing, lubricating, and chasing down noises. I've had
no formal education in bicycle mechanics. It was just figure out how
it works, figure out what was wrong, read the books as needed, and go
for a ride to see if it worked. I made plenty of mistakes, but rarely
repeated them.

On my bookshelf are the usual books. Machinery Handbooks, Ingenious
Mechanisms for Designers and Inventors (4 vols), Kent's Mechanical
Engineers Pocket-Book (1910), Power Transmission Design Handbook
(1961), and a few mechical engineering books. There's something about
bearings in all of these books, but they go further into kinematics
and motion control which I consider to be more interesting.

Now, I have a question for you. At some time in the distant past, I
tore apart an aviation X-band radar set. Sorry, but I don't recall
the designation. None of the numbers listed below sound familiar:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Military_radars_of_the_United_States
Among the parts I salvage, there were a few strange bearings. They
were about 1.5" dia, had very conventional inner and outer races,
balls, but had a rather odd cage system. For spacing the bearings, it
used ordinary coil springs. Something like 8 ball bearings with 8
springs. I still have these buried somewhere in my house, but can't
find them right now, or I would post a link to a photo. Any idea what
these are called or who makes them? I've been digging through Google
Photos for the past 30 mins and getting nowhere.

As seems to be the case in things like this you seem to understand nothing of what I'm saying and then take offense when it is explained to you. Are you supposing that the things I did designing medical machines and chemical analysis machines didn't require a full knowledge of mechanical engineering so that I could supervise the ME staff while doing the board design and then the programming of it to be able to properly program the micromotions of these devices?

Over time there have been many attempts at improving bearings to reduce the friction and/or wear because you've seen some of those doesn't mean what I wrote is incorrect. What is the question is WHY you want to argue about this crap that is in any bearing manual?

On Tue, 01 Dec 2020 16:23:09 +0700, John B.
wrote:

Not to join the debate but perhaps something like
https://patents.google.com/patent/US3037827
if you download the pdf you get a larger drawing.

That's roughly what the bearing looked like except that there was no
"spacer" (item 16) in the center of the springs. Also, the springs
were much longer, and the number of balls much fewer. I wouldn't use
such a bearing in a bicycle because the bearing races would eventually
abrade the springs, but it was suitable for a light weight radar set
where the dish antenna did not spin 360 degrees, but rather had a
reciprocating motion through an arc of about 120 degrees.

Unfortunately, the patent doesn't give a name for this style of
bearing. Fortunately, there are scanned images of Marlin-Rockwell
bearing catalogs available. I'll check those later tonite:
https://americanhistory.si.edu/collections/search/object/SILNMAHTL_29691

Thanks much. I'll keep digging.

Incidentally, one use for such a bearing was as a trick mechanical
aptitude test. I would ask the victim how such a bearing could be
disassembled. Those with a clue or experience got it immediately.
Those lacking were fixated by the concentric bearing races and
therefore couldn't figure out that pushing out each spring would allow
all the balls to fall to one side of the bearing races. The inner and
outer races would no longer be concentric, opening a large gap for the
balls to fall out.


--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

On Tue, 1 Dec 2020 08:22:15 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich
wrote:

As seems to be the case in things like this you seem to understand nothing
of what I'm saying and then take offense when it is explained to you.

Looks like you're back to your usual style of prefixing your comments
with a direct or implied insult. I was a little concerned that you
might have some manner problem that inspired you to convert to
postfixing your insults. Good to know that you're ok.

Are you supposing that the things I did designing medical machines
and chemical analysis machines didn't require a full knowledge of
mechanical engineering so that I could supervise the ME staff
while doing the board design and then the programming of it to
be able to properly program the micromotions of these devices?

I am supposing that you never did any design of any type based on
discussions in R.B.T. and the general lack of specific knowledge as
reinforce by your online LinkedIn resume which shows that your past
employment has been in software and that none of the companies listed
show you as a supervisor or mechanical engineer. While I do recognize
that some knowledge of bearing specs might be useful in removing
backlash, checking for wear, calibration, and programming a PID
controller, I don't see any evidence that you were involved in these.

Incidentally, mechanical engineers often write and use software but
programmers rarely do mechanical engineering.

Over time there have been many attempts at improving bearings to
reduce the friction and/or wear because you've seen some of those
doesn't mean what I wrote is incorrect.

Please re-read what I actually wrote. I never suggested that what you
wrote was either correct or incorrect. My contributions to the
discussion on bearings was mostly speculation if rust or corrosion had
eroded the surface of the balls or the race which caused the clunking
noise. You posted something I thought rather odd, so I provided you
with a question, which you then ignored:
https://groups.google.com/g/rec.bicycles.tech/c/BIOJig-cc7Y/m/SL8y4Ob1CQAJ
As a self-proclaimed expert on ball bearing, you should be able to
easily supply the method for determining the optimum number of loose
balls. Like my question on the spring spacers, I really don't know
the answer to the number of loose balls question and had hoped that
perhaps you might be able to provide an authoritative answer.

What is the question is
WHY you want to argue about this crap that is in any bearing manual?

To irritate you. Why else would I waste my time arguing with you?

Incidentally, you're again being true to form. Per your request, I
spent a fair amount of time detailing my admittedly limited experience
with ball bearings. Despite my detailed reply, you ignored everything
I wrote and ignored my question on spring spacers. Please try to at
least address what people write and do try to stay on topic. I
suspect that may be difficult for you because you express your opinion
in literally every thread that appears in R.B.T. With such copious
and diverse writings, you probably have some difficulties mixing
topics.


--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558