#11
|
|||
|
|||
Steel Fork
On 8/13/2020 3:40 PM, wrote:
On Thursday, August 13, 2020 at 1:03:08 PM UTC-5, wrote: On Thursday, August 13, 2020 at 4:57:09 PM UTC+2, wrote: Given I have not road a steel folk I believe since my Schwinn Traveler I bought in 1991 ( I think it was steel), how do they compare to CF? My sense is they must not ride a decent or more would be used. Also are steel folks safer than CF? I assume they are more flexible? Deacon Mark That is a too general question. Are you looking for some specific feature. Steel is cheap, everyone with some kind of braze skills can make one and the tools are cheap to do so and at the time they were popular it was the only practical material available. There is no magic about steel or any other material. Lou I just want to know about ride characteristics. Just like frames such as AL tend to be a but harsh I don't like them. The better ones are ok but I still prefer the CF or my Ti frame. I know steel is a nice ride but not quite as stiff as TI or CF. I figure forks are the same. Most have CF forks because I assume they handle bumpy roads better with less vibration. Myself I just have horrible nightmares of the AL frame I had once it just not great unless road smooth. I figure if steel was great more of them would be used but seems not. Even a TI fork for instances. I guess I am asking in general ride character of forks themselves not frames, realizing they are paired though. Deacon Mark Mark, I've got to confirm what others are saying to you. You just can't say steel forks have one riding characteristic (whatever that means!) and carbon fiber have another. There is SO much more to it than just the material! Let me give you an example. I have worked on old Schwinn bikes for a neighbor. Those had steel forks - SOLID steel, sort of a thick flat bar bent into a fork shape. There is a world of difference between that fork and a Reynolds 531 light tapered gage fork. One is solid as a rock. The other flexes quite a bit. You'd notice the difference over any bumpy road. The same is true for other materials - the design details greatly affect the "feel." Builders can probably build almost any amount of flexibility from almost any material. And I firmly believe that most of the "magic" feel ascribed to various materials is nonsense. I think material trends are largely fashion, with bike companies trying different things to capture buyers imaginations. The "best" bikes used to be made of legendary steel alloys, and while aluminum bikes were lighter, they were way too flexible. Then aluminum became way better than steel partly because it was so stiff. Then steel frames got oversized tubes to make them stiffer. Then titanium became the magic material, just right. Then carbon fiber's stiffness became just right and nobody wanted titanium any more. Then steel became "real" and people paid huge prices for steel frames. I'm one of the guys who think tires affect the ride way more than frame material. If you want to change the "feel" of your bike - whatever that is - I'd play with tire choices first. If that didn't work, I'd try bikes with different steering geometry, because more or less trail, head angle, fork rake, etc. do affect "feel." I'd consider the material incidental. -- - Frank Krygowski |
Ads |
#13
|
|||
|
|||
Steel Fork
John B. wrote:
On Thu, 13 Aug 2020 14:00:32 -0700 (PDT), " wrote: On Thursday, August 13, 2020 at 3:15:42 PM UTC-5, wrote: On Thursday, August 13, 2020 at 2:40:32 PM UTC-5, wrote: On Thursday, August 13, 2020 at 1:03:08 PM UTC-5, wrote: On Thursday, August 13, 2020 at 4:57:09 PM UTC+2, wrote: Given I have not road a steel folk I believe since my Schwinn Traveler I bought in 1991 ( I think it was steel), how do they compare to CF? My sense is they must not ride a decent or more would be used. Also are steel folks safer than CF? I assume they are more flexible? Deacon Mark That is a too general question. Are you looking for some specific feature. Steel is cheap, everyone with some kind of braze skills can make one and the tools are cheap to do so and at the time they were popular it was the only practical material available. There is no magic about steel or any other material. Lou I just want to know about ride characteristics. Just like frames such as AL tend to be a but harsh I don't like them. The better ones are ok but I still prefer the CF or my Ti frame. I know steel is a nice ride but not quite as stiff as TI or CF. I figure forks are the same. Most have CF forks because I assume they handle bumpy roads better with less vibration. Myself I just have horrible nightmares of the AL frame I had once it just not great unless road smooth. I figure if steel was great more of them would be used but seems not. Even a TI fork for instances. I guess I am asking in general ride character of forks themselves not frames, realizing they are paired though. Deacon Mark As stated by others, all of these building materials have a wide range of characteristics. Each can be stiffer than an anvil or lighter than a feather. And similar in weight, strength, stiffness, cost. But there are certain combinations of all these characteristics that cannot go together. Such as you cannot be the lightest and strongest at the same time. Or cheapest and strongest at the same time. Now lets talk about your misstatements. 1. "Just like frames such as AL tend to be a bit harsh I don't like them." Did you know (apparently not) that Alan and Vitus frames are aluminum! Back in the 1970s these were used in cyclocross races by the winners because they were so comfortable! And by pro racers like Sean Kelly. Kelly won the green sprinters jersey at the Tour four times. Riding an aluminum Vitus bike!!!!! Impossible! But the pro wannabe racers in the USA said these aluminum Alan and Vitus frames were too soft and flexible to win in the USA. Where stiffness if king baby. 2. "I know steel is a nice ride but not quite as stiff as TI or CF." Dang good thing you are not an engineer. People would die due to your incompetence. Steel is molecularly stiffer than titanium. That is a simple FACT. Steel is also stiffer than aluminum. The bike engineer police. I am talking about ride characteristics not molecules and steel Deacon Mark The material that a bike is made of has little or no relationship to how stiff the frame will be. They make golf club shafts and bows (Robin Hood) out of carbon fiber and both flex, a lot. They make bridges out of steel and they (hopefully) flex very little. and if memory serves the first generally sold aluminum bike, in the U.S. (Cannondale I seem to recall) was damned for being too stiff. -- Cheers, John B. If I was channeling your spirit, I would point out that your average bridge deflects more than your average golf club in absolute terms :-) |
#14
|
|||
|
|||
Steel Fork
On Fri, 14 Aug 2020 01:03:00 +0000 (UTC), Ralph Barone
wrote: John B. wrote: On Thu, 13 Aug 2020 14:00:32 -0700 (PDT), " wrote: On Thursday, August 13, 2020 at 3:15:42 PM UTC-5, wrote: On Thursday, August 13, 2020 at 2:40:32 PM UTC-5, wrote: On Thursday, August 13, 2020 at 1:03:08 PM UTC-5, wrote: On Thursday, August 13, 2020 at 4:57:09 PM UTC+2, wrote: Given I have not road a steel folk I believe since my Schwinn Traveler I bought in 1991 ( I think it was steel), how do they compare to CF? My sense is they must not ride a decent or more would be used. Also are steel folks safer than CF? I assume they are more flexible? Deacon Mark That is a too general question. Are you looking for some specific feature. Steel is cheap, everyone with some kind of braze skills can make one and the tools are cheap to do so and at the time they were popular it was the only practical material available. There is no magic about steel or any other material. Lou I just want to know about ride characteristics. Just like frames such as AL tend to be a but harsh I don't like them. The better ones are ok but I still prefer the CF or my Ti frame. I know steel is a nice ride but not quite as stiff as TI or CF. I figure forks are the same. Most have CF forks because I assume they handle bumpy roads better with less vibration. Myself I just have horrible nightmares of the AL frame I had once it just not great unless road smooth. I figure if steel was great more of them would be used but seems not. Even a TI fork for instances. I guess I am asking in general ride character of forks themselves not frames, realizing they are paired though. Deacon Mark As stated by others, all of these building materials have a wide range of characteristics. Each can be stiffer than an anvil or lighter than a feather. And similar in weight, strength, stiffness, cost. But there are certain combinations of all these characteristics that cannot go together. Such as you cannot be the lightest and strongest at the same time. Or cheapest and strongest at the same time. Now lets talk about your misstatements. 1. "Just like frames such as AL tend to be a bit harsh I don't like them." Did you know (apparently not) that Alan and Vitus frames are aluminum! Back in the 1970s these were used in cyclocross races by the winners because they were so comfortable! And by pro racers like Sean Kelly. Kelly won the green sprinters jersey at the Tour four times. Riding an aluminum Vitus bike!!!!! Impossible! But the pro wannabe racers in the USA said these aluminum Alan and Vitus frames were too soft and flexible to win in the USA. Where stiffness if king baby. 2. "I know steel is a nice ride but not quite as stiff as TI or CF." Dang good thing you are not an engineer. People would die due to your incompetence. Steel is molecularly stiffer than titanium. That is a simple FACT. Steel is also stiffer than aluminum. The bike engineer police. I am talking about ride characteristics not molecules and steel Deacon Mark The material that a bike is made of has little or no relationship to how stiff the frame will be. They make golf club shafts and bows (Robin Hood) out of carbon fiber and both flex, a lot. They make bridges out of steel and they (hopefully) flex very little. and if memory serves the first generally sold aluminum bike, in the U.S. (Cannondale I seem to recall) was damned for being too stiff. -- Cheers, John B. If I was channeling your spirit, I would point out that your average bridge deflects more than your average golf club in absolute terms :-) Nice one. But your reasoning is flawed as I have built a number of bridges in remote areas and no, in absolute terms, none of my bridges ever deflected as much as a golf club shaft. Largely because tropical hardwood logs were readily available and as no one ever bother to engineer any of them they were rather "over built" :-) -- Cheers, John B. |
#15
|
|||
|
|||
Steel Fork
On Fri, 14 Aug 2020 01:03:00 +0000 (UTC), Ralph Barone
wrote: John B. wrote: On Thu, 13 Aug 2020 14:00:32 -0700 (PDT), " wrote: On Thursday, August 13, 2020 at 3:15:42 PM UTC-5, wrote: On Thursday, August 13, 2020 at 2:40:32 PM UTC-5, wrote: On Thursday, August 13, 2020 at 1:03:08 PM UTC-5, wrote: On Thursday, August 13, 2020 at 4:57:09 PM UTC+2, wrote: Given I have not road a steel folk I believe since my Schwinn Traveler I bought in 1991 ( I think it was steel), how do they compare to CF? My sense is they must not ride a decent or more would be used. Also are steel folks safer than CF? I assume they are more flexible? Deacon Mark That is a too general question. Are you looking for some specific feature. Steel is cheap, everyone with some kind of braze skills can make one and the tools are cheap to do so and at the time they were popular it was the only practical material available. There is no magic about steel or any other material. Lou I just want to know about ride characteristics. Just like frames such as AL tend to be a but harsh I don't like them. The better ones are ok but I still prefer the CF or my Ti frame. I know steel is a nice ride but not quite as stiff as TI or CF. I figure forks are the same. Most have CF forks because I assume they handle bumpy roads better with less vibration. Myself I just have horrible nightmares of the AL frame I had once it just not great unless road smooth. I figure if steel was great more of them would be used but seems not. Even a TI fork for instances. I guess I am asking in general ride character of forks themselves not frames, realizing they are paired though. Deacon Mark As stated by others, all of these building materials have a wide range of characteristics. Each can be stiffer than an anvil or lighter than a feather. And similar in weight, strength, stiffness, cost. But there are certain combinations of all these characteristics that cannot go together. Such as you cannot be the lightest and strongest at the same time. Or cheapest and strongest at the same time. Now lets talk about your misstatements. 1. "Just like frames such as AL tend to be a bit harsh I don't like them." Did you know (apparently not) that Alan and Vitus frames are aluminum! Back in the 1970s these were used in cyclocross races by the winners because they were so comfortable! And by pro racers like Sean Kelly. Kelly won the green sprinters jersey at the Tour four times. Riding an aluminum Vitus bike!!!!! Impossible! But the pro wannabe racers in the USA said these aluminum Alan and Vitus frames were too soft and flexible to win in the USA. Where stiffness if king baby. 2. "I know steel is a nice ride but not quite as stiff as TI or CF." Dang good thing you are not an engineer. People would die due to your incompetence. Steel is molecularly stiffer than titanium. That is a simple FACT. Steel is also stiffer than aluminum. The bike engineer police. I am talking about ride characteristics not molecules and steel Deacon Mark The material that a bike is made of has little or no relationship to how stiff the frame will be. They make golf club shafts and bows (Robin Hood) out of carbon fiber and both flex, a lot. They make bridges out of steel and they (hopefully) flex very little. and if memory serves the first generally sold aluminum bike, in the U.S. (Cannondale I seem to recall) was damned for being too stiff. -- Cheers, John B. If I was channeling your spirit, I would point out that your average bridge deflects more than your average golf club in absolute terms :-) Nice one. But your reasoning is flawed as I have built a number of bridges in remote areas and no, in absolute terms, none of my bridges ever deflected as much as a golf club shaft. Largely because tropical hardwood logs were readily available and as no one ever bother to engineer any of them they were rather "over built" :-) -- Cheers, John B. |
#16
|
|||
|
|||
Steel Fork
On Fri, 14 Aug 2020 09:28:53 +0700, John B.
wrote: On Fri, 14 Aug 2020 01:03:00 +0000 (UTC), Ralph Barone wrote: John B. wrote: On Thu, 13 Aug 2020 14:00:32 -0700 (PDT), " wrote: On Thursday, August 13, 2020 at 3:15:42 PM UTC-5, wrote: On Thursday, August 13, 2020 at 2:40:32 PM UTC-5, wrote: On Thursday, August 13, 2020 at 1:03:08 PM UTC-5, wrote: On Thursday, August 13, 2020 at 4:57:09 PM UTC+2, wrote: Given I have not road a steel folk I believe since my Schwinn Traveler I bought in 1991 ( I think it was steel), how do they compare to CF? My sense is they must not ride a decent or more would be used. Also are steel folks safer than CF? I assume they are more flexible? Deacon Mark That is a too general question. Are you looking for some specific feature. Steel is cheap, everyone with some kind of braze skills can make one and the tools are cheap to do so and at the time they were popular it was the only practical material available. There is no magic about steel or any other material. Lou I just want to know about ride characteristics. Just like frames such as AL tend to be a but harsh I don't like them. The better ones are ok but I still prefer the CF or my Ti frame. I know steel is a nice ride but not quite as stiff as TI or CF. I figure forks are the same. Most have CF forks because I assume they handle bumpy roads better with less vibration. Myself I just have horrible nightmares of the AL frame I had once it just not great unless road smooth. I figure if steel was great more of them would be used but seems not. Even a TI fork for instances. I guess I am asking in general ride character of forks themselves not frames, realizing they are paired though. Deacon Mark As stated by others, all of these building materials have a wide range of characteristics. Each can be stiffer than an anvil or lighter than a feather. And similar in weight, strength, stiffness, cost. But there are certain combinations of all these characteristics that cannot go together. Such as you cannot be the lightest and strongest at the same time. Or cheapest and strongest at the same time. Now lets talk about your misstatements. 1. "Just like frames such as AL tend to be a bit harsh I don't like them." Did you know (apparently not) that Alan and Vitus frames are aluminum! Back in the 1970s these were used in cyclocross races by the winners because they were so comfortable! And by pro racers like Sean Kelly. Kelly won the green sprinters jersey at the Tour four times. Riding an aluminum Vitus bike!!!!! Impossible! But the pro wannabe racers in the USA said these aluminum Alan and Vitus frames were too soft and flexible to win in the USA. Where stiffness if king baby. 2. "I know steel is a nice ride but not quite as stiff as TI or CF." Dang good thing you are not an engineer. People would die due to your incompetence. Steel is molecularly stiffer than titanium. That is a simple FACT. Steel is also stiffer than aluminum. The bike engineer police. I am talking about ride characteristics not molecules and steel Deacon Mark The material that a bike is made of has little or no relationship to how stiff the frame will be. They make golf club shafts and bows (Robin Hood) out of carbon fiber and both flex, a lot. They make bridges out of steel and they (hopefully) flex very little. and if memory serves the first generally sold aluminum bike, in the U.S. (Cannondale I seem to recall) was damned for being too stiff. -- Cheers, John B. If I was channeling your spirit, I would point out that your average bridge deflects more than your average golf club in absolute terms :-) Nice one. But your reasoning is flawed as I have built a number of bridges in remote areas and no, in absolute terms, none of my bridges ever deflected as much as a golf club shaft. Largely because tropical hardwood logs were readily available and as no one ever bother to engineer any of them they were rather "over built" :-) Sorry about the double post. Mea Culpa -- Cheers, John B. |
#17
|
|||
|
|||
Steel Fork
On 8/13/2020 10:38 PM, John B. wrote:
Sorry about the double post. Mea Culpa I blame Bill Gates. -- - Frank Krygowski |
#18
|
|||
|
|||
Steel Fork
On Fri, 14 Aug 2020 14:29:05 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote: On 8/13/2020 10:38 PM, John B. wrote: Sorry about the double post. Mea Culpa I blame Bill Gates. Nope. Can't be Billy. I don't use Windows :-) -- Cheers, John B. |
|
Thread Tools | |
Display Modes | |
|
|
Similar Threads | ||||
Thread | Thread Starter | Forum | Replies | Last Post |
Carbon fork vs. old steel fork? | Hell and High Water | General | 4 | August 13th 07 11:41 PM |
fork for old steel frame | mtb Dad | Techniques | 20 | May 21st 07 03:50 PM |
Source for steel fork | Stephen Greenwood | Techniques | 11 | January 20th 07 12:47 AM |
Colnago C-40/steel fork | Qui si parla Campagnolo | Marketplace | 2 | December 6th 04 03:20 PM |
FS Colnago Steel Fork | Tom Kunich | Marketplace | 1 | May 16th 04 05:58 AM |