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  #11  
Old August 14th 20, 12:56 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Frank Krygowski[_4_]
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Posts: 10,538
Default Steel Fork

On 8/13/2020 3:40 PM, wrote:
On Thursday, August 13, 2020 at 1:03:08 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Thursday, August 13, 2020 at 4:57:09 PM UTC+2, wrote:
Given I have not road a steel folk I believe since my Schwinn Traveler I bought in 1991 ( I think it was steel), how do they compare to CF? My sense is they must not ride a decent or more would be used. Also are steel folks safer than CF? I assume they are more flexible?

Deacon Mark

That is a too general question. Are you looking for some specific feature. Steel is cheap, everyone with some kind of braze skills can make one and the tools are cheap to do so and at the time they were popular it was the only practical material available. There is no magic about steel or any other material.

Lou

I just want to know about ride characteristics. Just like frames such as AL tend to be a but harsh I don't like them. The better ones are ok but I still prefer the CF or my Ti frame. I know steel is a nice ride but not quite as stiff as TI or CF. I figure forks are the same. Most have CF forks because I assume they handle bumpy roads better with less vibration. Myself I just have horrible nightmares of the AL frame I had once it just not great unless road smooth. I figure if steel was great more of them would be used but seems not. Even a TI fork for instances. I guess I am asking in general ride character of forks themselves not frames, realizing they are paired though.
Deacon Mark


Mark, I've got to confirm what others are saying to you. You just can't
say steel forks have one riding characteristic (whatever that means!)
and carbon fiber have another. There is SO much more to it than just the
material!

Let me give you an example. I have worked on old Schwinn bikes for a
neighbor. Those had steel forks - SOLID steel, sort of a thick flat bar
bent into a fork shape. There is a world of difference between that fork
and a Reynolds 531 light tapered gage fork. One is solid as a rock. The
other flexes quite a bit. You'd notice the difference over any bumpy road.

The same is true for other materials - the design details greatly affect
the "feel." Builders can probably build almost any amount of flexibility
from almost any material. And I firmly believe that most of the "magic"
feel ascribed to various materials is nonsense.

I think material trends are largely fashion, with bike companies trying
different things to capture buyers imaginations. The "best" bikes used
to be made of legendary steel alloys, and while aluminum bikes were
lighter, they were way too flexible. Then aluminum became way better
than steel partly because it was so stiff. Then steel frames got
oversized tubes to make them stiffer. Then titanium became the magic
material, just right. Then carbon fiber's stiffness became just right
and nobody wanted titanium any more. Then steel became "real" and people
paid huge prices for steel frames.

I'm one of the guys who think tires affect the ride way more than frame
material. If you want to change the "feel" of your bike - whatever that
is - I'd play with tire choices first. If that didn't work, I'd try
bikes with different steering geometry, because more or less trail, head
angle, fork rake, etc. do affect "feel." I'd consider the material
incidental.

--
- Frank Krygowski
Ads
  #12  
Old August 14th 20, 01:13 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
JBeattie
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5,870
Default Steel Fork

On Thursday, August 13, 2020 at 4:12:56 PM UTC-7, John B. wrote:
On Thu, 13 Aug 2020 14:00:32 -0700 (PDT), "
wrote:

On Thursday, August 13, 2020 at 3:15:42 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Thursday, August 13, 2020 at 2:40:32 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Thursday, August 13, 2020 at 1:03:08 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Thursday, August 13, 2020 at 4:57:09 PM UTC+2, wrote:
Given I have not road a steel folk I believe since my Schwinn Traveler I bought in 1991 ( I think it was steel), how do they compare to CF? My sense is they must not ride a decent or more would be used. Also are steel folks safer than CF? I assume they are more flexible?

Deacon Mark
That is a too general question. Are you looking for some specific feature. Steel is cheap, everyone with some kind of braze skills can make one and the tools are cheap to do so and at the time they were popular it was the only practical material available. There is no magic about steel or any other material.

Lou
I just want to know about ride characteristics. Just like frames such as AL tend to be a but harsh I don't like them. The better ones are ok but I still prefer the CF or my Ti frame. I know steel is a nice ride but not quite as stiff as TI or CF. I figure forks are the same. Most have CF forks because I assume they handle bumpy roads better with less vibration. Myself I just have horrible nightmares of the AL frame I had once it just not great unless road smooth. I figure if steel was great more of them would be used but seems not. Even a TI fork for instances. I guess I am asking in general ride character of forks themselves not frames, realizing they are paired though.
Deacon Mark
As stated by others, all of these building materials have a wide range of characteristics. Each can be stiffer than an anvil or lighter than a feather. And similar in weight, strength, stiffness, cost. But there are certain combinations of all these characteristics that cannot go together. Such as you cannot be the lightest and strongest at the same time. Or cheapest and strongest at the same time.

Now lets talk about your misstatements.
1. "Just like frames such as AL tend to be a bit harsh I don't like them."
Did you know (apparently not) that Alan and Vitus frames are aluminum! Back in the 1970s these were used in cyclocross races by the winners because they were so comfortable! And by pro racers like Sean Kelly. Kelly won the green sprinters jersey at the Tour four times. Riding an aluminum Vitus bike!!!!! Impossible! But the pro wannabe racers in the USA said these aluminum Alan and Vitus frames were too soft and flexible to win in the USA. Where stiffness if king baby.
2. "I know steel is a nice ride but not quite as stiff as TI or CF."
Dang good thing you are not an engineer. People would die due to your incompetence. Steel is molecularly stiffer than titanium. That is a simple FACT. Steel is also stiffer than aluminum.



The bike engineer police. I am talking about ride characteristics not molecules and steel

Deacon Mark


The material that a bike is made of has little or no relationship to
how stiff the frame will be. They make golf club shafts and bows
(Robin Hood) out of carbon fiber and both flex, a lot. They make
bridges out of steel and they (hopefully) flex very little. and if
memory serves the first generally sold aluminum bike, in the U.S.
(Cannondale I seem to recall) was damned for being too stiff.


Fun fact: Klein v. Cannondale -- the first OS aluminum bike was some one-off frame made by Bill Shook.
https://law.justia.com/cases/federal...4/1399/464210/ D'oh! So much for that patent.

Klein frames were the first production OS aluminum frames in the US. Klein sponsored my racing club in the late '70s early 80s, but I couldn't afford one of his frames, and I thought they looked bloated -- although I always wanted boron fiber reinforced chain stays (sounded super-space agey), and they were supposed to be really stiff.

My tastes changed when I broke my last steel racing frame in 1984 and replaced it with a cheap and available Cannondale from a local shop in PDX. It's what I could find in my size off the rack. That was a great frame, and in 63cm, it wasn't punishingly stiff either -- just really stiff, and lighter than a comparatively stiff steel frame. I could understand smaller riders complaining about the frame being too stiff, particularly back in the days of 100psi 19-21mm clincher tires. First generation Turbos rode like rocks.

-- Jay Beattie.











  #13  
Old August 14th 20, 02:03 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Ralph Barone[_4_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 853
Default Steel Fork

John B. wrote:
On Thu, 13 Aug 2020 14:00:32 -0700 (PDT), "
wrote:

On Thursday, August 13, 2020 at 3:15:42 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Thursday, August 13, 2020 at 2:40:32 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Thursday, August 13, 2020 at 1:03:08 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Thursday, August 13, 2020 at 4:57:09 PM UTC+2, wrote:
Given I have not road a steel folk I believe since my Schwinn
Traveler I bought in 1991 ( I think it was steel), how do they
compare to CF? My sense is they must not ride a decent or more would
be used. Also are steel folks safer than CF? I assume they are more flexible?

Deacon Mark
That is a too general question. Are you looking for some specific
feature. Steel is cheap, everyone with some kind of braze skills can
make one and the tools are cheap to do so and at the time they were
popular it was the only practical material available. There is no
magic about steel or any other material.

Lou
I just want to know about ride characteristics. Just like frames such
as AL tend to be a but harsh I don't like them. The better ones are ok
but I still prefer the CF or my Ti frame. I know steel is a nice ride
but not quite as stiff as TI or CF. I figure forks are the same. Most
have CF forks because I assume they handle bumpy roads better with
less vibration. Myself I just have horrible nightmares of the AL frame
I had once it just not great unless road smooth. I figure if steel was
great more of them would be used but seems not. Even a TI fork for
instances. I guess I am asking in general ride character of forks
themselves not frames, realizing they are paired though.
Deacon Mark
As stated by others, all of these building materials have a wide range of
characteristics. Each can be stiffer than an anvil or lighter than a
feather. And similar in weight, strength, stiffness, cost. But there
are certain combinations of all these characteristics that cannot go
together. Such as you cannot be the lightest and strongest at the same
time. Or cheapest and strongest at the same time.

Now lets talk about your misstatements.
1. "Just like frames such as AL tend to be a bit harsh I don't like them."
Did you know (apparently not) that Alan and Vitus frames are aluminum!
Back in the 1970s these were used in cyclocross races by the winners
because they were so comfortable! And by pro racers like Sean Kelly.
Kelly won the green sprinters jersey at the Tour four times. Riding an
aluminum Vitus bike!!!!! Impossible! But the pro wannabe racers in the
USA said these aluminum Alan and Vitus frames were too soft and
flexible to win in the USA. Where stiffness if king baby.
2. "I know steel is a nice ride but not quite as stiff as TI or CF."
Dang good thing you are not an engineer. People would die due to your
incompetence. Steel is molecularly stiffer than titanium. That is a
simple FACT. Steel is also stiffer than aluminum.



The bike engineer police. I am talking about ride characteristics not molecules and steel

Deacon Mark


The material that a bike is made of has little or no relationship to
how stiff the frame will be. They make golf club shafts and bows
(Robin Hood) out of carbon fiber and both flex, a lot. They make
bridges out of steel and they (hopefully) flex very little. and if
memory serves the first generally sold aluminum bike, in the U.S.
(Cannondale I seem to recall) was damned for being too stiff.
--
Cheers,

John B.



If I was channeling your spirit, I would point out that your average bridge
deflects more than your average golf club in absolute terms :-)

  #14  
Old August 14th 20, 03:28 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
John B.[_3_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5,697
Default Steel Fork

On Fri, 14 Aug 2020 01:03:00 +0000 (UTC), Ralph Barone
wrote:

John B. wrote:
On Thu, 13 Aug 2020 14:00:32 -0700 (PDT), "
wrote:

On Thursday, August 13, 2020 at 3:15:42 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Thursday, August 13, 2020 at 2:40:32 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Thursday, August 13, 2020 at 1:03:08 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Thursday, August 13, 2020 at 4:57:09 PM UTC+2, wrote:
Given I have not road a steel folk I believe since my Schwinn
Traveler I bought in 1991 ( I think it was steel), how do they
compare to CF? My sense is they must not ride a decent or more would
be used. Also are steel folks safer than CF? I assume they are more flexible?

Deacon Mark
That is a too general question. Are you looking for some specific
feature. Steel is cheap, everyone with some kind of braze skills can
make one and the tools are cheap to do so and at the time they were
popular it was the only practical material available. There is no
magic about steel or any other material.

Lou
I just want to know about ride characteristics. Just like frames such
as AL tend to be a but harsh I don't like them. The better ones are ok
but I still prefer the CF or my Ti frame. I know steel is a nice ride
but not quite as stiff as TI or CF. I figure forks are the same. Most
have CF forks because I assume they handle bumpy roads better with
less vibration. Myself I just have horrible nightmares of the AL frame
I had once it just not great unless road smooth. I figure if steel was
great more of them would be used but seems not. Even a TI fork for
instances. I guess I am asking in general ride character of forks
themselves not frames, realizing they are paired though.
Deacon Mark
As stated by others, all of these building materials have a wide range of
characteristics. Each can be stiffer than an anvil or lighter than a
feather. And similar in weight, strength, stiffness, cost. But there
are certain combinations of all these characteristics that cannot go
together. Such as you cannot be the lightest and strongest at the same
time. Or cheapest and strongest at the same time.

Now lets talk about your misstatements.
1. "Just like frames such as AL tend to be a bit harsh I don't like them."
Did you know (apparently not) that Alan and Vitus frames are aluminum!
Back in the 1970s these were used in cyclocross races by the winners
because they were so comfortable! And by pro racers like Sean Kelly.
Kelly won the green sprinters jersey at the Tour four times. Riding an
aluminum Vitus bike!!!!! Impossible! But the pro wannabe racers in the
USA said these aluminum Alan and Vitus frames were too soft and
flexible to win in the USA. Where stiffness if king baby.
2. "I know steel is a nice ride but not quite as stiff as TI or CF."
Dang good thing you are not an engineer. People would die due to your
incompetence. Steel is molecularly stiffer than titanium. That is a
simple FACT. Steel is also stiffer than aluminum.


The bike engineer police. I am talking about ride characteristics not molecules and steel

Deacon Mark


The material that a bike is made of has little or no relationship to
how stiff the frame will be. They make golf club shafts and bows
(Robin Hood) out of carbon fiber and both flex, a lot. They make
bridges out of steel and they (hopefully) flex very little. and if
memory serves the first generally sold aluminum bike, in the U.S.
(Cannondale I seem to recall) was damned for being too stiff.
--
Cheers,

John B.



If I was channeling your spirit, I would point out that your average bridge
deflects more than your average golf club in absolute terms :-)


Nice one. But your reasoning is flawed as I have built a number of
bridges in remote areas and no, in absolute terms, none of my bridges
ever deflected as much as a golf club shaft.

Largely because tropical hardwood logs were readily available and as
no one ever bother to engineer any of them they were rather "over
built" :-)
--
Cheers,

John B.

  #15  
Old August 14th 20, 03:28 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
John B.[_3_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5,697
Default Steel Fork

On Fri, 14 Aug 2020 01:03:00 +0000 (UTC), Ralph Barone
wrote:

John B. wrote:
On Thu, 13 Aug 2020 14:00:32 -0700 (PDT), "
wrote:

On Thursday, August 13, 2020 at 3:15:42 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Thursday, August 13, 2020 at 2:40:32 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Thursday, August 13, 2020 at 1:03:08 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Thursday, August 13, 2020 at 4:57:09 PM UTC+2, wrote:
Given I have not road a steel folk I believe since my Schwinn
Traveler I bought in 1991 ( I think it was steel), how do they
compare to CF? My sense is they must not ride a decent or more would
be used. Also are steel folks safer than CF? I assume they are more flexible?

Deacon Mark
That is a too general question. Are you looking for some specific
feature. Steel is cheap, everyone with some kind of braze skills can
make one and the tools are cheap to do so and at the time they were
popular it was the only practical material available. There is no
magic about steel or any other material.

Lou
I just want to know about ride characteristics. Just like frames such
as AL tend to be a but harsh I don't like them. The better ones are ok
but I still prefer the CF or my Ti frame. I know steel is a nice ride
but not quite as stiff as TI or CF. I figure forks are the same. Most
have CF forks because I assume they handle bumpy roads better with
less vibration. Myself I just have horrible nightmares of the AL frame
I had once it just not great unless road smooth. I figure if steel was
great more of them would be used but seems not. Even a TI fork for
instances. I guess I am asking in general ride character of forks
themselves not frames, realizing they are paired though.
Deacon Mark
As stated by others, all of these building materials have a wide range of
characteristics. Each can be stiffer than an anvil or lighter than a
feather. And similar in weight, strength, stiffness, cost. But there
are certain combinations of all these characteristics that cannot go
together. Such as you cannot be the lightest and strongest at the same
time. Or cheapest and strongest at the same time.

Now lets talk about your misstatements.
1. "Just like frames such as AL tend to be a bit harsh I don't like them."
Did you know (apparently not) that Alan and Vitus frames are aluminum!
Back in the 1970s these were used in cyclocross races by the winners
because they were so comfortable! And by pro racers like Sean Kelly.
Kelly won the green sprinters jersey at the Tour four times. Riding an
aluminum Vitus bike!!!!! Impossible! But the pro wannabe racers in the
USA said these aluminum Alan and Vitus frames were too soft and
flexible to win in the USA. Where stiffness if king baby.
2. "I know steel is a nice ride but not quite as stiff as TI or CF."
Dang good thing you are not an engineer. People would die due to your
incompetence. Steel is molecularly stiffer than titanium. That is a
simple FACT. Steel is also stiffer than aluminum.


The bike engineer police. I am talking about ride characteristics not molecules and steel

Deacon Mark


The material that a bike is made of has little or no relationship to
how stiff the frame will be. They make golf club shafts and bows
(Robin Hood) out of carbon fiber and both flex, a lot. They make
bridges out of steel and they (hopefully) flex very little. and if
memory serves the first generally sold aluminum bike, in the U.S.
(Cannondale I seem to recall) was damned for being too stiff.
--
Cheers,

John B.



If I was channeling your spirit, I would point out that your average bridge
deflects more than your average golf club in absolute terms :-)


Nice one. But your reasoning is flawed as I have built a number of
bridges in remote areas and no, in absolute terms, none of my bridges
ever deflected as much as a golf club shaft.

Largely because tropical hardwood logs were readily available and as
no one ever bother to engineer any of them they were rather "over
built" :-)
--
Cheers,

John B.

  #16  
Old August 14th 20, 03:38 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
John B.[_3_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5,697
Default Steel Fork

On Fri, 14 Aug 2020 09:28:53 +0700, John B.
wrote:

On Fri, 14 Aug 2020 01:03:00 +0000 (UTC), Ralph Barone
wrote:

John B. wrote:
On Thu, 13 Aug 2020 14:00:32 -0700 (PDT), "
wrote:

On Thursday, August 13, 2020 at 3:15:42 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Thursday, August 13, 2020 at 2:40:32 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Thursday, August 13, 2020 at 1:03:08 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Thursday, August 13, 2020 at 4:57:09 PM UTC+2, wrote:
Given I have not road a steel folk I believe since my Schwinn
Traveler I bought in 1991 ( I think it was steel), how do they
compare to CF? My sense is they must not ride a decent or more would
be used. Also are steel folks safer than CF? I assume they are more flexible?

Deacon Mark
That is a too general question. Are you looking for some specific
feature. Steel is cheap, everyone with some kind of braze skills can
make one and the tools are cheap to do so and at the time they were
popular it was the only practical material available. There is no
magic about steel or any other material.

Lou
I just want to know about ride characteristics. Just like frames such
as AL tend to be a but harsh I don't like them. The better ones are ok
but I still prefer the CF or my Ti frame. I know steel is a nice ride
but not quite as stiff as TI or CF. I figure forks are the same. Most
have CF forks because I assume they handle bumpy roads better with
less vibration. Myself I just have horrible nightmares of the AL frame
I had once it just not great unless road smooth. I figure if steel was
great more of them would be used but seems not. Even a TI fork for
instances. I guess I am asking in general ride character of forks
themselves not frames, realizing they are paired though.
Deacon Mark
As stated by others, all of these building materials have a wide range of
characteristics. Each can be stiffer than an anvil or lighter than a
feather. And similar in weight, strength, stiffness, cost. But there
are certain combinations of all these characteristics that cannot go
together. Such as you cannot be the lightest and strongest at the same
time. Or cheapest and strongest at the same time.

Now lets talk about your misstatements.
1. "Just like frames such as AL tend to be a bit harsh I don't like them."
Did you know (apparently not) that Alan and Vitus frames are aluminum!
Back in the 1970s these were used in cyclocross races by the winners
because they were so comfortable! And by pro racers like Sean Kelly.
Kelly won the green sprinters jersey at the Tour four times. Riding an
aluminum Vitus bike!!!!! Impossible! But the pro wannabe racers in the
USA said these aluminum Alan and Vitus frames were too soft and
flexible to win in the USA. Where stiffness if king baby.
2. "I know steel is a nice ride but not quite as stiff as TI or CF."
Dang good thing you are not an engineer. People would die due to your
incompetence. Steel is molecularly stiffer than titanium. That is a
simple FACT. Steel is also stiffer than aluminum.


The bike engineer police. I am talking about ride characteristics not molecules and steel

Deacon Mark

The material that a bike is made of has little or no relationship to
how stiff the frame will be. They make golf club shafts and bows
(Robin Hood) out of carbon fiber and both flex, a lot. They make
bridges out of steel and they (hopefully) flex very little. and if
memory serves the first generally sold aluminum bike, in the U.S.
(Cannondale I seem to recall) was damned for being too stiff.
--
Cheers,

John B.



If I was channeling your spirit, I would point out that your average bridge
deflects more than your average golf club in absolute terms :-)


Nice one. But your reasoning is flawed as I have built a number of
bridges in remote areas and no, in absolute terms, none of my bridges
ever deflected as much as a golf club shaft.

Largely because tropical hardwood logs were readily available and as
no one ever bother to engineer any of them they were rather "over
built" :-)


Sorry about the double post. Mea Culpa
--
Cheers,

John B.

  #17  
Old August 14th 20, 07:29 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Frank Krygowski[_4_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 10,538
Default Steel Fork

On 8/13/2020 10:38 PM, John B. wrote:

Sorry about the double post. Mea Culpa


I blame Bill Gates.


--
- Frank Krygowski
  #18  
Old August 15th 20, 12:07 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
John B.[_3_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5,697
Default Steel Fork

On Fri, 14 Aug 2020 14:29:05 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 8/13/2020 10:38 PM, John B. wrote:

Sorry about the double post. Mea Culpa


I blame Bill Gates.


Nope. Can't be Billy. I don't use Windows :-)
--
Cheers,

John B.

 




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