Mavic introduces wheel with compression spokes

Gary Young wrote:
Another blog posting on the wheel:

http://thisjustin.bicycling.com/2007...vic_wheel.html

The description seems to me to be hopelessly confused, but there is a
photograph showing how the carbon-fiber spokes connect to the hub.

well /this/
http://rodale.typepad.com/.shared/im...9/img_1529.jpg
sure isn't a compression fitting!

ahhhh!

BM writes: The drive side rear spokes are aluminum, like Ksyrium.
Mavic says that a full compliment of tubular carbon spokes would make
the rear wheel ride too rigid. Also, the aluminum spokes will tolerate
a derailleur or chain thrown into the spokes better and are cheaper to
replace if you do.

and off coursa this answers the first question after Ma tells us the
carbons donna bend.
insteda of bending the spokes...

sounds like a terrific idea. placement at speed. see the rider photo.

On Jun 19, 11:58 am, Kinky Cowboy wrote:
On Tue, 19 Jun 2007 07:41:12 -0700, Qui si parla Campagnolo

wrote:
On Jun 18, 9:55 pm, Gary Young wrote:
Road Mag's blog had this item today:

"The [new] wheels, which are part of the Ksyrium family,
http://tinyurl.com/2m59r9

Still with crappola rear hub and for only, what $2600 or so??

my head hurts

"The suggested retail is about $1,400 US" according to the article.

Also "(the spokes only way[sic] five grams each - versus an aluminium
at eight grams "

Sapim CX-Rays weight 4g, and are cheaper than Mavic Aluminium or
carbon spokes. So instead of 16 carbon spokes, use 20 CX-Rays; I'm
pretty sure that's going to make a wheel with both higher axial
stiffness and lower aerodynamic drag, at exactly the same weight and
lower cost. Is there some vital piece of European politics I'm missing
which prevents French Mavic from admitting that Belgian Sapim (or
Swiss DT) have already solved the spoke problem? Heck, both countries
even have substantial Francophone populations, so it can't be a
language issue.

Kinky Cowboy*

*Batteries not included
May contain traces of nuts
Your milage may vary

ahh, I see, take a Kry-4-me sirium, same crappy rear hub(even with red
pawls), replace left side rear spokes with carbon ones..make the rim
assymetric(a GOOD idea), add $300 to the price(ala 'ES version)..heads
still hurts. lesseeee...these 1400 grams or so..OR....use a DA/Record/
DT hubset, Velocity rims, DT spokes...$600-$750 or so and 1550 grams
or so...150 grams are now worth $700!!!

head still hurts...

On Jun 20, 9:06 am, datakoll wrote:

snipped

- on Mavic's latest gimmick -


Mavic says that a full compliment of tubular carbon spokes would make
the rear wheel ride too rigid.


Mavic seems to have struck the Mother Lode of Unadulterated BS!

On Jun 20, 8:51 am, jim beam wrote:
Gary Young wrote:
Another blog posting on the wheel:

http://thisjustin.bicycling.com/2007...vic_wheel.html

The description seems to me to be hopelessly confused, but there is a
photograph showing how the carbon-fiber spokes connect to the hub.

well /this/http://rodale.typepad.com/.shared/image.html?/photos/uncategorized/20...
sure isn't a compression fitting!

According to www.cyclingnews.com the carbon spokes are in tension but
are designed to handle compressive loads as well. This allows them to
make a wheel with lower spoke tension thus a lighter rim since it
doesn't have to handle as much stress from the spokes. Mavic has also
finally given in to the asymetric rim design for there new wheels in
order to help balance spoke tension. The reason for the aluminum
spokes on the drive side in the rear wheel is so that they could use
thin bladed spokes and thus place them as far away from the center of
the hub as possible. It lookes like the front wheel uses 18 spokes
and the rear uses 24.
It sounds like a decent racing wheel to me but I am a bit sceptical
about how it will hold up for the general public. I did find this
claim by mavic to be interesting, "In seeking that elusive "third
generation", Mavic designers and engineers identified spoke stiffness
and flange spacing as the biggest contributors to a wheel's lateral
rigidity, while rim stiffness, spoke length, hub flange diameter, and
spoke lacing patterns all are said to offer little significant
influence. More surprisingly, Mavic also claims that spoke tension has
a negligible influence, and increasing the spoke tension actually
reduces overall lateral rigidity (although it does delay the onset of
complete spoke detensioning)." I was surprised to hear that rim
stiffness has such a small influence on lateral stiffness. I notice a
huge difference between a deepV rim and a open pro rim when it comes
to lateral stiffness, assuming the same hub and spokes are used in
both wheels.



Steve Sauter

steve wrote:
Mavic designers and engineers identified spoke stiffness
and flange spacing as the biggest contributors to a wheel's lateral
rigidity, while rim stiffness, spoke length, hub flange diameter, and
spoke lacing patterns all are said to offer little significant
influence.

When I modeled a wheel I got the same result. Flange spacing (or
actually bracing angle) has an exponential effect on lateral stiffness
and the spoke stiffness has almost a linear effect. The rim stiffness
effect was way below linear.

I was surprised to hear that rim
stiffness has such a small influence on lateral stiffness. I notice a
huge difference between a deepV rim and a open pro rim when it comes
to lateral stiffness, assuming the same hub and spokes are used in
both wheels.

Did you measure this? "Seat of the pants" measurements are unreliable
for these things... Mavic also built 2 sets of wheels that were
indentical except that one had 4 times the lateral stiffness of the
other. Riders could not accurately identify which was which.

Steve Sauter writes:

http://thisjustin.bicycling.com/2007...vic_wheel.html

The description seems to me to be hopelessly confused, but there
is a photograph showing how the carbon-fiber spokes connect to the
hub.

well /this/

http://tinyurl.com/2m59r9

sure isn't a compression fitting!

According to www.cyclingnews.com the carbon spokes are in tension
but are designed to handle compressive loads as well. This allows
them to make a wheel with lower spoke tension thus a lighter rim
since it doesn't have to handle as much stress from the spokes.
Mavic has also finally given in to the asymmetric rim design for
there new wheels in order to help balance spoke tension. The reason
for the aluminum spokes on the drive side in the rear wheel is so
that they could use thin bladed spokes and thus place them as far
away from the center of the hub as possible. It looks like the
front wheel uses 18 spokes and the rear uses 24.

It sounds like a decent racing wheel to me but I am a bit skeptical
about how it will hold up for the general public.

I don't understand what the difference between racing and other
bicycling has for wheels. What is it a wheel must do in a race that
is different from non-race riding. I seem to see differences implied
that one is a greater stress than the other but the more stressful one
changes depending on what point is being put forth.

From what I see cruising up and down the avenue here, the all look
like racing wheels, some costing as much as $4000 a pair, according to
our local bicycle shops.


Jobst Brandt

what avenue are you cruising?

On Jun 20, 10:07 am, wrote:
Steve Sauter writes:

http://thisjustin.bicycling.com/2007...vic_wheel.html

The description seems to me to be hopelessly confused, but there
is a photograph showing how the carbon-fiber spokes connect to the
hub.
well /this/

http://tinyurl.com/2m59r9

sure isn't a compression fitting!
According towww.cyclingnews.comthe carbon spokes are in tension
but are designed to handle compressive loads as well. This allows
them to make a wheel with lower spoke tension thus a lighter rim
since it doesn't have to handle as much stress from the spokes.
Mavic has also finally given in to the asymmetric rim design for
there new wheels in order to help balance spoke tension. The reason
for the aluminum spokes on the drive side in the rear wheel is so
that they could use thin bladed spokes and thus place them as far
away from the center of the hub as possible. It looks like the
front wheel uses 18 spokes and the rear uses 24.
It sounds like a decent racing wheel to me but I am a bit skeptical
about how it will hold up for the general public.

I don't understand what the difference between racing and other
bicycling has for wheels. What is it a wheel must do in a race that
is different from non-race riding.

Lessee....lighter, more aero. IOW, marginally "faster". Less reliable
and durable in pursuit of those goals is okay, too, especially if you
are sponsored and followed around by support vehicles.


I seem to see differences implied
that one is a greater stress than the other but the more stressful one
changes depending on what point is being put forth.

From what I see cruising up and down the avenue here, the all look
like racing wheels, some costing as much as $4000 a pair, according to
our local bicycle shops.

Jobst Brandt

Gary Young wrote:

It was more rigid and at 1355 grams they are one of the
lighter wheel sets on the market (hey - the spokes only way five grams
each - versus an aluminum at eight grams - and we know that every gram
counts)."

The really funny thing is that high-end flat steel spokes like Sapim
CX-Ray or DT Swiss Aerolite are also about five grams each, and they are
a lot more aerodynamic and less likely to break than at least Mavic's
aluminium spokes.

I really can't understand why Mavic insists on using aluminium in
spokes, or carbon for that matter, and why anybody would be stupid
enough to buy them at that price. In the wheel tests perfomed in a wind
tunnel Mavic Ksyrium SL or Ksyrium ES have shown to be about as slow as
wheels get. Mavic Ksyrium Elite or Mavic Aksium ($150 a pair or so) are
faster unless you only ride uphill.

Antti