Johan Bruyneel crticizes Contador

On Dec 7, 3:56*pm, --D-y wrote:
On Dec 7, 10:05*am, bar wrote:

There's a monstrous drive there; how else could he have won 7 in a
row?

better at doping than everyone else. *7 World Doping Championships in
a row ...

Well, that's the way it is. All sports, (generally) all human endeavor
including watching football on TV (glug glug glug!).

And that's the way it has always been, too. Despite the "moralizers"
who "call for a return to a time (imaginary) when Sport was Pure"--
which if you look includes a fair number of sports writers who need to
sell something, anything "big".

Lance only won the TdF. So who else do you hate for winning other
races (doping championships)?
--D-y

i don't hate anyone Dusto. I just wish i could watch and enjoy a race
that doesn't come down to which biological machine is running the
highest octane fuel, know what i mean?

what we need is IROC for cycling ...

On Dec 7, 8:50*am, Randall wrote:
On Dec 7, 12:07*am, "
wrote:

(http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/cont...g-credibility-
questioned )

""For Contador, with an effort of twenty minutes at 90% VO2max, weight
of 62 kg, maximum aerobic power is 493 watts, which gives an oxygen
consumption of 6.17 liters / min: 99.5 ml / min / kg!" Vayer wrote.

LeMond, in response, called on Contador to prove that he is physically
capable of achieving these numbers without the use of performance-
enhancing products, "assuming the validity of the calculations"."

This is a great idea, finally we can dispense with
all of this expensive and tedious racing, get the damn
bicycles off the road, and simply have the competitors
all blow into VO2 machines to determine the legitimate
and rightful winners.

It might cut into the sales of bicycles to wannabees
and the recreational market, but Lemond has already
demonstrated that he's willing to sacrifice a few dollars
of tainted bicycle revenue to make progress in the quest
for truth.

Sincerely,

Greg Lemond

Well doping is getting more sophisticated so testing must advance as
well. Naturally doing Vo2 testing for all riders would not be
practical.

Dumbass,

Are you a dumbass?

All of the riders have had their VO2 tested unless they
ride for one of those old-school DSes that still believes
in stuff like rationing their water.

VO2 testing is probably much cheaper than dope testing.
You put the rider on a ergometer, hook up an oxygen mask,
and read some numbers off. No worrying about peeing in
a bottle, drawing blood, or French lab techs. VO2max is a
test to exhaustion, so you wouldn't do it before a race.

The point, which you and Lemond do not understand, is
that VO2max is not even that strongly correlated with power
at threshold, and even power at threshold is not a
substitute for actually running the race to see who wins.
You can't just hook riders up to an erg and an oxygen meter,
run their numbers, and declare that some of their
performances are invalid.

Ben

"Jason Spaceman" wrote in message
...
On Dec 7, 12:53 am, Randall wrote:

I was disappointed at the cheap shots Armstrong and Contador traded.
TDF champions need to present a better example for the sport. With the
exception of this minor incident Lance has conducted himself a true
professional. This what I admire most about Lance.

Filippo Simeoni might take issue with that.

You mean that guy who was pretending to be clean and was saying everyone
else was dirty?

" wrote in message
...

The point, which you and Lemond do not understand, is
that VO2max is not even that strongly correlated with power
at threshold, and even power at threshold is not a
substitute for actually running the race to see who wins.
You can't just hook riders up to an erg and an oxygen meter,
run their numbers, and declare that some of their
performances are invalid.

They have been trying to relate specific bodily functions to particular
performance levels for a half century or more. The truth is that the human
body is so complex that any number of combinations can allow a man to have
superior performance on different types of courses.

Consider - Cipollini or Cavendish who appear barely capable of making it to
the end of a mountainous stage that has a fairly long flat before the
finish. Yet they can catch the peloton and then blow their doors off in the
final 200 meters.

The top 5 or 6 finishers in the grand tours are so close physically that
there's little difference between them and so psychological warfare comes
into play. And gamesmanship.

So it is a bit far fetched to try to rate someone according to a specific
body function.

On Dec 6, 10:29*pm, Randall wrote:
On Dec 6, 9:08*pm, Fred Fredburger

wrote:
William Asher wrote:
" wrote in
:

It's a reasonable criticism for Johan to make, but I think it's only
natural for a star who rose so quickly. The question is Alberto
learning and adjusting to it. Personally I think Alberto is adapting
well considering the amount of planning he is doing with Astana.

This paragraph would be better with a little wordsmithing and an
additional p in the final sentence: *"... amount of doping he is planning
..."

No, no, no! It's only Armstrong that does that. LeMond told me so!

(http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/cont...g-credibility-
questioned )

""For Contador, with an effort of twenty minutes at 90% VO2max, weight
of 62 kg, maximum aerobic power is 493 watts, which gives an oxygen
consumption of 6.17 liters / min: 99.5 ml / min / kg!" Vayer wrote.

LeMond, in response, called on Contador to prove that he is physically
capable of achieving these numbers without the use of performance-
enhancing products, "assuming the validity of the calculations"."

It's plausible question but it might be hard to test since riders are
only at that form for a short time period. So the question then is how
form affects V02...? This seems a like research for the UCI to answer.

That's 7.95 watts/kg.....compared to the max value of a world champ/
world record holder of 6.62 watts/kg for 20 minutes as quoted in Dr
Coggan's power tables.
I would mostly question the accuracy of the 7.95 number. VO2 max is
not a strong predictor of aerobic performance and VO2 at anaerobic
threshold is not an absolute (constant) value. Screw the psysiological
testing, let the race determine the winner and let the dope testing
determine if it was fair and not some half baked method from a sour
grapes virtual tour w(h)inner.

Phil H

On Dec 7, 3:02*pm, bar wrote:

i don't hate anyone Dusto. *I just wish i could watch and enjoy a race
that doesn't come down to which biological machine is running the
highest octane fuel, know what i mean?

what we need is IROC for cycling ...

Well, bar, you can't know what fuel is being used.

And you sure do come across as at least a strong disliker, for sinner
as well as sin, so to speak.

IROC had its day, and it was fun to watch. It did seem to be on the up-
and-up, but who knows, especially considering the era ("if you ain't
cheating, you ain't trying") it was run in.

One ironic and unfortunate result of the secrecy involved in the Dope
Race (between competitors and "dope cops" of whatever stripe) is,
there's a lot of possible "better living through chemistry" research
going on, all under the table. Yeah, we need the Pot Belge and meth
and overdosing (with resultant croaking) on EPO or anything else to be
totally out of here, but "health of the rider" is not uncomplicated.
Meaning, I've seen the case made that controlled "help" might actually
be a desirable thing-- regimens skewed toward the "mineral water" end
of the continuum, IOW.
--D-y

On Dec 7, 7:45*pm, --D-y wrote:
On Dec 7, 3:02*pm, bar wrote:

i don't hate anyone Dusto. *I just wish i could watch and enjoy a race
that doesn't come down to which biological machine is running the
highest octane fuel, know what i mean?

what we need is IROC for cycling ...

Well, bar, you can't know what fuel is being used.

*And you sure do come across as at least a strong disliker, for sinner
as well as sin, so to speak.

IROC had its day, and it was fun to watch. It did seem to be on the up-
and-up, but who knows, especially considering the era ("if you ain't
cheating, you ain't trying") it was run in.

One ironic and unfortunate result of the secrecy involved in the Dope
Race (between competitors and "dope cops" of whatever stripe) is,
there's a lot of possible "better living through chemistry" research
going on, all under the table. Yeah, we need the Pot Belge and meth
and overdosing (with resultant croaking) on EPO or anything else to be
totally out of here, but "health of the rider" is not uncomplicated.
Meaning, I've seen the case made that controlled "help" might actually
be a desirable thing-- regimens skewed toward the "mineral water" end
of the continuum, IOW.
--D-y

i've never been called a "strong disliker" before ...

bar wrote:
i've never been called a "strong disliker" before ...

Dumbass,

On Dec 7, 5:01*pm, "Tom Kunich" wrote:

You mean that guy who was pretending to be clean and was saying everyone
else was dirty?

pole smoker,

that's not what he did. he claimed ferrari helped him dope with EPO in
the 90s and armstrong objected to that since ferrari was his advisor
at the time.

ferrari was subsequently convicted of sporting fraud (i.e. he was
guilty of breaking a law, not simply a sporting violation) at which
point armstrong was forced to cut his ties to ferrari.

simeoni didn't pretend to be clean - he actually admitted to doping
but armstrong called him a liar. why did armstrong make the "shut your
mouth" gesture to him ?

On Dec 7, 5:01*pm, "Tom Kunich" wrote:
"Jason Spaceman" wrote in message

...

On Dec 7, 12:53 am, Randall wrote:

I was disappointed at the cheap shots Armstrong and Contador traded.
TDF champions need to present a better example for the sport. With the
exception of this minor incident Lance has conducted himself a true
professional. This what I admire most about Lance.

Filippo Simeoni might take issue with that.

You mean that guy who was pretending to be clean and was saying everyone
else was dirty?

Simeoni is no saint, but I think it was a dick move for Armstrong to
chase him down.




J. Spaceman