Do cyclists make better motorcyclists?

Mark Hickey wrote in message ...
wrote:

A superman position raises the estimate to 53.1 mph.

The thought of riding down ANY hill at that speed in the superman
position boggles the mind. One with curves... shudder...


The cloak of infallibility plus that of immortality are heavier when young.

When someone tells you that they have a speedo, you want to know how fast.
It was when the Avocet ones started appearing that all this finding the best
aero position came about. Wouldn't surprise me if C.Boardman attempted it
at the time. Although as far as I know, he wasn't that hot in descending.

Trevor

Mark McMaster wrote in message ...

Quite interesting. First you tell me that I'm absolutely
wrong, and then you agree with everything I said. Which is it?

Compared to a motorcycle tire, a bicycle tire is much lower,
narrower and harder (i.e. closer to the solid tire you spoke
of). Whatever slip angle exists on a bicycle tire is too
small to make any meaningful difference in cornering.


Sorry. I was mixing the posts.

The size of slip angle is irrelevant on a bicycle because the rider alters
style to compensate. The racing motorcyclist has the problem of changing
slip angle during heavy braking and powering out from bends as large amounts
of torque are applied to the wheels. As the torque is increased the casing
is pulled and becomes stiffer, reducing slip angle and so increasing the
likelihood of sliding.

The low amounts of torque available on a bicycle wheel rarely encounter this
problem. I have momentarily slid the front wheel on a corner when braking,
I released the brake and then thought how the **c* did I get away with that.
The bike regripped without having to run wide. I can see this is an affect
of changing slip angles allowing the tyre to re-grip without resorting to
steering changes which would still usually see one on the floor.

Trevor

Mark McMaster wrote in message ...

Quite interesting. First you tell me that I'm absolutely
wrong, and then you agree with everything I said. Which is it?

Compared to a motorcycle tire, a bicycle tire is much lower,
narrower and harder (i.e. closer to the solid tire you spoke
of). Whatever slip angle exists on a bicycle tire is too
small to make any meaningful difference in cornering.


Sorry. I was mixing the posts.

The size of slip angle is irrelevant on a bicycle because the rider alters
style to compensate. The racing motorcyclist has the problem of changing
slip angle during heavy braking and powering out from bends as large amounts
of torque are applied to the wheels. As the torque is increased the casing
is pulled and becomes stiffer, reducing slip angle and so increasing the
likelihood of sliding.

The low amounts of torque available on a bicycle wheel rarely encounter this
problem. I have momentarily slid the front wheel on a corner when braking,
I released the brake and then thought how the **c* did I get away with that.
The bike regripped without having to run wide. I can see this is an affect
of changing slip angles allowing the tyre to re-grip without resorting to
steering changes which would still usually see one on the floor.

Trevor

Mark McMaster wrote in message ...

Quite interesting. First you tell me that I'm absolutely
wrong, and then you agree with everything I said. Which is it?

Compared to a motorcycle tire, a bicycle tire is much lower,
narrower and harder (i.e. closer to the solid tire you spoke
of). Whatever slip angle exists on a bicycle tire is too
small to make any meaningful difference in cornering.


Sorry. I was mixing the posts.

The size of slip angle is irrelevant on a bicycle because the rider alters
style to compensate. The racing motorcyclist has the problem of changing
slip angle during heavy braking and powering out from bends as large amounts
of torque are applied to the wheels. As the torque is increased the casing
is pulled and becomes stiffer, reducing slip angle and so increasing the
likelihood of sliding.

The low amounts of torque available on a bicycle wheel rarely encounter this
problem. I have momentarily slid the front wheel on a corner when braking,
I released the brake and then thought how the **c* did I get away with that.
The bike regripped without having to run wide. I can see this is an affect
of changing slip angles allowing the tyre to re-grip without resorting to
steering changes which would still usually see one on the floor.

Trevor

On Tue, 7 Sep 2004 01:36:48 +0100, "Trevor"
wrote:


wrote in message ...
There only a handful of short sections that reach 10% on the
54 roads profiled in considerable detail at this well-known
site for bicyclists interested in how steep roads a

http://ciclismo.sitiasp.it/motore2.a...05b7602d4b321e
7&lista=true&quanti=20&url=ga&ID=0&pagina=1&filtr a=null&da=az&come=af&lingua
=eng&commenti=False

or

http://tinyurl.com/4w7st

To be polite, Wales is not famous for long, steep descents,
and you've previously demonstrated that your judgement of 10
feet, side to side, is open to question.

If this section at Gwernymynydd turns out to be a 10% grade
of a kilometer, you should submit it to the site above. From
being unlisted, it will leap into the half-dozen steepest
road sections in Wales.

It's hard to see how something as obvious as the A494 could
have been missed, but anything can happen.

Still, the site requires some proof.

It would be simple for them to obtain a large scale plan with road heights
from Ordnance Survey. I do not know the current development of this area, I
can imagine that the speed limit is restricted now.

Trevor

Dear Trevor,

What has the speed limit got to do with whether a paved road
is listed among the steepest climbs in Wales?

Carl Fogel

On Tue, 7 Sep 2004 01:36:48 +0100, "Trevor"
wrote:


wrote in message ...
There only a handful of short sections that reach 10% on the
54 roads profiled in considerable detail at this well-known
site for bicyclists interested in how steep roads a

http://ciclismo.sitiasp.it/motore2.a...05b7602d4b321e
7&lista=true&quanti=20&url=ga&ID=0&pagina=1&filtr a=null&da=az&come=af&lingua
=eng&commenti=False

or

http://tinyurl.com/4w7st

To be polite, Wales is not famous for long, steep descents,
and you've previously demonstrated that your judgement of 10
feet, side to side, is open to question.

If this section at Gwernymynydd turns out to be a 10% grade
of a kilometer, you should submit it to the site above. From
being unlisted, it will leap into the half-dozen steepest
road sections in Wales.

It's hard to see how something as obvious as the A494 could
have been missed, but anything can happen.

Still, the site requires some proof.

It would be simple for them to obtain a large scale plan with road heights
from Ordnance Survey. I do not know the current development of this area, I
can imagine that the speed limit is restricted now.

Trevor

Dear Trevor,

What has the speed limit got to do with whether a paved road
is listed among the steepest climbs in Wales?

Carl Fogel

On Tue, 7 Sep 2004 01:36:48 +0100, "Trevor"
wrote:


wrote in message ...
There only a handful of short sections that reach 10% on the
54 roads profiled in considerable detail at this well-known
site for bicyclists interested in how steep roads a

http://ciclismo.sitiasp.it/motore2.a...05b7602d4b321e
7&lista=true&quanti=20&url=ga&ID=0&pagina=1&filtr a=null&da=az&come=af&lingua
=eng&commenti=False

or

http://tinyurl.com/4w7st

To be polite, Wales is not famous for long, steep descents,
and you've previously demonstrated that your judgement of 10
feet, side to side, is open to question.

If this section at Gwernymynydd turns out to be a 10% grade
of a kilometer, you should submit it to the site above. From
being unlisted, it will leap into the half-dozen steepest
road sections in Wales.

It's hard to see how something as obvious as the A494 could
have been missed, but anything can happen.

Still, the site requires some proof.

It would be simple for them to obtain a large scale plan with road heights
from Ordnance Survey. I do not know the current development of this area, I
can imagine that the speed limit is restricted now.

Trevor

Dear Trevor,

What has the speed limit got to do with whether a paved road
is listed among the steepest climbs in Wales?

Carl Fogel

On Tue, 7 Sep 2004 01:51:47 +0100, "Trevor"
wrote:


wrote in message ...
It gets worse at higher speeds. Here's a table for the same
bike on a 17% grade, where it reaches 70.1 mph and needs 204
rpm to engage a 2124 mm 700c tire with 54 x 12 gearing:

mph rpm watts
70.1 0 0 coasting, not pedalling
62.6 204 0.1 coasting, but pedalling w/no power
70.1 204 1046 pedalling 52 x 12 gear


I think it was E. Merckx whose measured o/p was 1 1/3 hp or 1700Watts
which is 650 watts more than that required for 70mph. High power is
produced at high rpm so a slower cadence is not required.

Not all riders are alike, at what speed would 1700watts attain on a 1in10
grade with this calculator. Use 53x12 700x25C 167.5 cranks, flat back.

Trevor

Dear Trevor,

Are you claiming that you put out 1700 watts? If so, for how
long?

Carl Fogel

On Tue, 7 Sep 2004 01:51:47 +0100, "Trevor"
wrote:


wrote in message ...
It gets worse at higher speeds. Here's a table for the same
bike on a 17% grade, where it reaches 70.1 mph and needs 204
rpm to engage a 2124 mm 700c tire with 54 x 12 gearing:

mph rpm watts
70.1 0 0 coasting, not pedalling
62.6 204 0.1 coasting, but pedalling w/no power
70.1 204 1046 pedalling 52 x 12 gear


I think it was E. Merckx whose measured o/p was 1 1/3 hp or 1700Watts
which is 650 watts more than that required for 70mph. High power is
produced at high rpm so a slower cadence is not required.

Not all riders are alike, at what speed would 1700watts attain on a 1in10
grade with this calculator. Use 53x12 700x25C 167.5 cranks, flat back.

Trevor

Dear Trevor,

Are you claiming that you put out 1700 watts? If so, for how
long?

Carl Fogel

On Tue, 7 Sep 2004 01:51:47 +0100, "Trevor"
wrote:


wrote in message ...
It gets worse at higher speeds. Here's a table for the same
bike on a 17% grade, where it reaches 70.1 mph and needs 204
rpm to engage a 2124 mm 700c tire with 54 x 12 gearing:

mph rpm watts
70.1 0 0 coasting, not pedalling
62.6 204 0.1 coasting, but pedalling w/no power
70.1 204 1046 pedalling 52 x 12 gear


I think it was E. Merckx whose measured o/p was 1 1/3 hp or 1700Watts
which is 650 watts more than that required for 70mph. High power is
produced at high rpm so a slower cadence is not required.

Not all riders are alike, at what speed would 1700watts attain on a 1in10
grade with this calculator. Use 53x12 700x25C 167.5 cranks, flat back.

Trevor

Dear Trevor,

Are you claiming that you put out 1700 watts? If so, for how
long?

Carl Fogel