Electronic shifter article

http://www.bikeradar.com/news/articl...oad/2008/09/04

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

On Sep 4, 12:59*pm, wrote:
http://www.bikeradar.com/news/articl...oad/2008/09/04


[ http://tinyurl.com/59c4r5 ]

"The gradual performance degradation caused by cable housing wear or
contamination is completely eliminated (as Shimano puts it, “the input
always equals the output”)."

And:

"To be fair, we weren’t able to spend nearly as much time on Di2 as we
would have liked . . ."

So, at least one of the benefits was entirely untested. And will
remain
untested until at least late 2009 (as I doubt anyone can ride a
bicycle
for a year or more before then).

On the up side, with a bit more of a "brain" installed, it could go
semi-
automatic with preselected ratios and only two buttons.

In article
,
wrote:

On Sep 4, 12:59*pm, wrote:
http://www.bikeradar.com/news/articl...ctronic-first-
ride-18283?source=newsletter&attr=road/2008/09/04


[ http://tinyurl.com/59c4r5 ]

"The gradual performance degradation caused by cable housing wear or
contamination is completely eliminated (as Shimano puts it, ³the input
always equals the output²)."

And:

"To be fair, we weren¹t able to spend nearly as much time on Di2 as we
would have liked . . ."

So, at least one of the benefits was entirely untested. And will
remain
untested until at least late 2009 (as I doubt anyone can ride a
bicycle
for a year or more before then).

On the up side, with a bit more of a "brain" installed, it could go
semi-
automatic with preselected ratios and only two buttons.

The activation buttons are really simple switches. I can think of a few
simple controller systems that would allow you to do semi-auto shifting
or full-auto shifting.

I wouldn't necessarily recommend the idea,

--
Ryan Cousineau http://www.wiredcola.com/
"In other newsgroups, they killfile trolls."
"In rec.bicycles.racing, we coach them."

On Sep 5, 2:59*am, Ryan Cousineau wrote:
In article
,



wrote:
On Sep 4, 12:59*pm, wrote:
http://www.bikeradar.com/news/articl...di2-electronic....
ride-18283?source=newsletter&attr=road/2008/09/04

[http://tinyurl.com/59c4r5]

"The gradual performance degradation caused by cable housing wear or
contamination is completely eliminated (as Shimano puts it, ³the input
always equals the output²)."

And:

"To be fair, we weren¹t able to spend nearly as much time on Di2 as we
would have liked . . ."

So, at least one of the benefits was entirely untested. *And will
remain
untested until at least late 2009 (as I doubt anyone can ride a
bicycle
for a year or more before then).

On the up side, with a bit more of a "brain" installed, it could go
semi-
automatic with preselected ratios and only two buttons.

The activation buttons are really simple switches. I can think of a few
simple controller systems that would allow you to do semi-auto shifting
or full-auto shifting.

Shimano doesn't need any suggestions for a controller to do full- or
semi-autoshifting. They've been selling one for years in Europe. The
Dura-Ace system you're so excited about is a cut-down version of what
riders of Koga-Miyata's Excellence have been enjoying for years. It
consists of front and rear derailleurs with full autoshifting and has
been available since c2004. If it works anything like my Di2 Cyber
Nexus (and it should, it is the same control gubbins), there is also a
semi-auto mode which I prefer to call assisted-manual. This assisted-
manual mode is precisely what you get on the Dura-Ace, except that on
the Dura-Ace you get nothing more. On the full Di2 electronic versions
whether Nexave or Nexus you also get a selection of predetermined
shifting patterns (3 on the Cyber Nexus: sporting, normal, little old
lady), and in addition you get an overall setting for desired effort
with eight stops. You can read all about it at
http://members.lycos.co.uk/fiultra/B...%20Smover.html

The Dura-Ace version appears to be cut down from the full system in
the following respects:

1. The versions sold in Europe were self-powering by hub dynamo and
probably flash memory (possibly a capacitor though I have been unable
to find it by physical inspection) whereas the Dura-Ace version
requires a battery pack. That's regressive, I think.

2. The deluxe European versions have a variable effort selector, the
Dura-Ace version doesn't, or if it has we haven't heard about it yet.

3. The hedonist types for Europeans have full auto; the cut-down
version for roadies has only assisted manual changes.

4. The deluxe European version has a lockout mode wherein all starts
are sporting because the gearbox starts off in second gear. This would
be useful on the Dura-Ace too but if it is available we haven't heard
of it.

5. The deluxe version, sold to people who can appreciate it, has an
integrated active suspension system, also powered by the hub dynamo.
It is active in the service of efficiency, going hard when you take
off and when you ascend a hill, soft when you ride fast, on the flat
or downhill. The Dura-Ace model for hard men doesn't have any such
luxuries.

6. The deluxe version for bikers who consider their ass valuable
switches the lights on automatically at dusk, and of course the hub
dynamo also powers the lights.

It may be that the cut down Dura-Ace system is better built but I
wouldn't bet on it. Why should it be? It's proven on the European
versions; there are no reports known to me of dissatisfied customers
and I for one have found the system robust beyond initial expectation.
Anyway, to be cynical, Shimano is going to sell the cut-down Dura-Ace
version to a bunch of roadies who apparently haven't taken the trouble
to inform themselves that they can buy a more complete system with a
proven track record by writing away to Europe. If your market is that
insular, the sole vendor can essentially do what he pleases.

I wouldn't necessarily recommend the idea,

I've been using the full auto on my Trek. I love it. I recommend it
wholeheartedly. Compared to the full auto in the Cyber Nexus and
Nexave Di2 versions, that Dura-Ace job seems pretty impoverished. It
wouldn't be so bad if it were merely ascetic, but it seems to me as if
Shimano view that market for the electronic Dura-Ace as one which
suffered a failure of imagination at puberty and still hasn't
recovered.

HTH.

Andre Jute
Riding proudly slow

Andre Jute wrote:
On Sep 5, 2:59 am, Ryan Cousineau wrote:
In article
,



wrote:
On Sep 4, 12:59 pm, wrote:
http://www.bikeradar.com/news/articl...di2-electronic...
ride-18283?source=newsletter&attr=road/2008/09/04
[http://tinyurl.com/59c4r5]
"The gradual performance degradation caused by cable housing wear or
contamination is completely eliminated (as Shimano puts it, ³the input
always equals the output²)."
And:
"To be fair, we weren¹t able to spend nearly as much time on Di2 as we
would have liked . . ."
So, at least one of the benefits was entirely untested. And will
remain
untested until at least late 2009 (as I doubt anyone can ride a
bicycle
for a year or more before then).
On the up side, with a bit more of a "brain" installed, it could go
semi-
automatic with preselected ratios and only two buttons.
The activation buttons are really simple switches. I can think of a few
simple controller systems that would allow you to do semi-auto shifting
or full-auto shifting.

Shimano doesn't need any suggestions for a controller to do full- or
semi-autoshifting. They've been selling one for years in Europe. The
Dura-Ace system you're so excited about is a cut-down version of what
riders of Koga-Miyata's Excellence have been enjoying for years. It
consists of front and rear derailleurs with full autoshifting and has
been available since c2004. If it works anything like my Di2 Cyber
Nexus (and it should, it is the same control gubbins), there is also a
semi-auto mode which I prefer to call assisted-manual. This assisted-
manual mode is precisely what you get on the Dura-Ace, except that on
the Dura-Ace you get nothing more. On the full Di2 electronic versions
whether Nexave or Nexus you also get a selection of predetermined
shifting patterns (3 on the Cyber Nexus: sporting, normal, little old
lady), and in addition you get an overall setting for desired effort
with eight stops. You can read all about it at
http://members.lycos.co.uk/fiultra/B...%20Smover.html

The Dura-Ace version appears to be cut down from the full system in
the following respects:

1. The versions sold in Europe were self-powering by hub dynamo and
probably flash memory (possibly a capacitor though I have been unable
to find it by physical inspection) whereas the Dura-Ace version
requires a battery pack. That's regressive, I think.

2. The deluxe European versions have a variable effort selector, the
Dura-Ace version doesn't, or if it has we haven't heard about it yet.

3. The hedonist types for Europeans have full auto; the cut-down
version for roadies has only assisted manual changes.

4. The deluxe European version has a lockout mode wherein all starts
are sporting because the gearbox starts off in second gear. This would
be useful on the Dura-Ace too but if it is available we haven't heard
of it.

5. The deluxe version, sold to people who can appreciate it, has an
integrated active suspension system, also powered by the hub dynamo.
It is active in the service of efficiency, going hard when you take
off and when you ascend a hill, soft when you ride fast, on the flat
or downhill. The Dura-Ace model for hard men doesn't have any such
luxuries.

6. The deluxe version for bikers who consider their ass valuable
switches the lights on automatically at dusk, and of course the hub
dynamo also powers the lights.

It may be that the cut down Dura-Ace system is better built but I
wouldn't bet on it. Why should it be? It's proven on the European
versions; there are no reports known to me of dissatisfied customers
and I for one have found the system robust beyond initial expectation.
Anyway, to be cynical, Shimano is going to sell the cut-down Dura-Ace
version to a bunch of roadies who apparently haven't taken the trouble
to inform themselves that they can buy a more complete system with a
proven track record by writing away to Europe. If your market is that
insular, the sole vendor can essentially do what he pleases.

I wouldn't necessarily recommend the idea,

I've been using the full auto on my Trek. I love it. I recommend it
wholeheartedly. Compared to the full auto in the Cyber Nexus and
Nexave Di2 versions, that Dura-Ace job seems pretty impoverished. It
wouldn't be so bad if it were merely ascetic, but it seems to me as if
Shimano view that market for the electronic Dura-Ace as one which
suffered a failure of imagination at puberty and still hasn't
recovered.

HTH.

Maybe Andre's suggestions would be improvements for the poseurs, but not
for real racers.

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
“Mary had a little lamb / And when she saw it sicken /
She shipped it off to Packingtown / And now it’s labeled chicken.”

On Sep 4, 11:59*am, wrote:
http://www.bikeradar.com/news/articl...di2-electronic...

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

And a dude from shimano said it also reduced 'mental fatigue'. Thank
goodness, moving your middle finger a couple of centimeters every few
minutes was SO fatiguing..whew!!

On Sep 5, 5:46 am, Tom Sherman
wrote:
Andre Jute wrote:
On Sep 5, 2:59 am, Ryan Cousineau wrote:
In article
,

wrote:
On Sep 4, 12:59 pm, wrote:
http://www.bikeradar.com/news/articl...di2-electronic....
ride-18283?source=newsletter&attr=road/2008/09/04
[http://tinyurl.com/59c4r5]
"The gradual performance degradation caused by cable housing wear or
contamination is completely eliminated (as Shimano puts it, ³the input
always equals the output²)."
And:
"To be fair, we weren¹t able to spend nearly as much time on Di2 as we
would have liked . . ."
So, at least one of the benefits was entirely untested. And will
remain
untested until at least late 2009 (as I doubt anyone can ride a
bicycle
for a year or more before then).
On the up side, with a bit more of a "brain" installed, it could go
semi-
automatic with preselected ratios and only two buttons.
The activation buttons are really simple switches. I can think of a few
simple controller systems that would allow you to do semi-auto shifting
or full-auto shifting.

Shimano doesn't need any suggestions for a controller to do full- or
semi-autoshifting. They've been selling one for years in Europe. The
Dura-Ace system you're so excited about is a cut-down version of what
riders of Koga-Miyata's Excellence have been enjoying for years. It
consists of front and rear derailleurs with full autoshifting and has
been available since c2004. If it works anything like my Di2 Cyber
Nexus (and it should, it is the same control gubbins), there is also a
semi-auto mode which I prefer to call assisted-manual. This assisted-
manual mode is precisely what you get on the Dura-Ace, except that on
the Dura-Ace you get nothing more. On the full Di2 electronic versions
whether Nexave or Nexus you also get a selection of predetermined
shifting patterns (3 on the Cyber Nexus: sporting, normal, little old
lady), and in addition you get an overall setting for desired effort
with eight stops. You can read all about it at
http://members.lycos.co.uk/fiultra/B...igator%20L700%...

The Dura-Ace version appears to be cut down from the full system in
the following respects:

1. The versions sold in Europe were self-powering by hub dynamo and
probably flash memory (possibly a capacitor though I have been unable
to find it by physical inspection) whereas the Dura-Ace version
requires a battery pack. That's regressive, I think.

2. The deluxe European versions have a variable effort selector, the
Dura-Ace version doesn't, or if it has we haven't heard about it yet.

3. The hedonist types for Europeans have full auto; the cut-down
version for roadies has only assisted manual changes.

4. The deluxe European version has a lockout mode wherein all starts
are sporting because the gearbox starts off in second gear. This would
be useful on the Dura-Ace too but if it is available we haven't heard
of it.

5. The deluxe version, sold to people who can appreciate it, has an
integrated active suspension system, also powered by the hub dynamo.
It is active in the service of efficiency, going hard when you take
off and when you ascend a hill, soft when you ride fast, on the flat
or downhill. The Dura-Ace model for hard men doesn't have any such
luxuries.

6. The deluxe version for bikers who consider their ass valuable
switches the lights on automatically at dusk, and of course the hub
dynamo also powers the lights.

It may be that the cut down Dura-Ace system is better built but I
wouldn't bet on it. Why should it be? It's proven on the European
versions; there are no reports known to me of dissatisfied customers
and I for one have found the system robust beyond initial expectation.
Anyway, to be cynical, Shimano is going to sell the cut-down Dura-Ace
version to a bunch of roadies who apparently haven't taken the trouble
to inform themselves that they can buy a more complete system with a
proven track record by writing away to Europe. If your market is that
insular, the sole vendor can essentially do what he pleases.

I wouldn't necessarily recommend the idea,

I've been using the full auto on my Trek. I love it. I recommend it
wholeheartedly. Compared to the full auto in the Cyber Nexus and
Nexave Di2 versions, that Dura-Ace job seems pretty impoverished. It
wouldn't be so bad if it were merely ascetic, but it seems to me as if
Shimano view that market for the electronic Dura-Ace as one which
suffered a failure of imagination at puberty and still hasn't
recovered.

HTH.

Maybe Andre's suggestions would be improvements for the poseurs, but not
for real racers.

I'm not making suggestions, Tom, I'm describing component groups that
Shimano have had on the market for years, of which the new Dura-Ace
electronic derailleurs is merely a cut-down version.

And, if you think any but the posers will buy semi-auto gears on
racing bikes, I suggest you think again. The full katootie on comfort
bikes and touring bikes, all of the highest quality at very fair
prices considering the facilities and levels of trim, -- didn't sell.
Four or five years ago the head of Koga Miyata was hailing Shimano's
autobox as the wave of the future; i'm not sure Koga even lists the
top of the range derailleured cyberbox any more, and the auto Orange
(nee Saphir) with the Cyber Nexus hub gears offered by sister company
Gazelle was always a cut-down version, without the active suspension
as on my Trek. There were just too few hedonists with a technical bent
to create even a modest niche; even the makers who put the autobox
only on the ladies' model didn't get rich. Racing bikes with semi-auto
boxes seems an even more unlikely market.

All of this is sad. I think Shimano's Di2 concept is brilliant, it's
execution is excellent. It is an idea that deserves a wide trial and
to survive. But, because of the innate stickinthemuddery and pack
mentality of cyclists (and especially the roadies), I also think that
we're looking at a gruppo or subgruppo that is on its way to the
orphanage. In a few years,when some johnny-come-lately short-memory
writes in to abuse Shimano for killing off what he'll describe as a
glorious advance in cycling, I'll remind y'all that you heard it here
first.

I think Shimano knows this already, and can spot the cause as easily
as I can. That is why they have long had a low-end version of the
autobox that goes into bikes like the Lime to attract *new* people to
cycling, people without the rooted prejudices of current mob of
dinosaurs. I don't know how well the strategy has worked, as I don't
operate at the low end of the market. But I hope they succeed beyond
their fondest expectation. If there were a cycling Nobel Prize, it
should go to Shimano for providing good parts, and innovative parts,
and brand new concepts at near mass market prices, year in, year out,
despite the knocks of outrageous fortune and prissy-mouthed roadies
talking them down.

Andre Jute
Trading up

On Sep 5, 1:32*pm, Qui si parla Campagnolo wrote:
On Sep 4, 11:59*am, wrote:

http://www.bikeradar.com/news/articl...di2-electronic...

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

And a dude from shimano said it also reduced 'mental fatigue'. Thank
goodness, moving your middle finger a couple of centimeters every few
minutes was SO fatiguing..whew!!

Here's the test, if your mind is flexible enough to encompass it:
Suppose, just for the moment, that Shimano built a fully automatic
gruppo that suffered zero weight penalty against the the fully manual
gruppo, how long do you think it would be before it was on every bike
in the Tour de France? To make it easy for you to get the right
answer, we'll make this a multiple choice question. Choose only one of
a) one year or b) two years.

Fractions of a second mount up, especially in top-level endurance
racing where you can safely assume that in a sprint, fresh in the
morning, all the riders are equally fast. Mental attention not spent
elsewhere becomes available for other elements that contribute to the
very slender margin between being victorious and coming second --
second is only the first of the losers.

Whether there are enough fractions of a second in electronically
assisted manual changes, or other savings in longevity for instance,
in this truncated cyber-system being offered to racers, to make it
attractive, I don't know. I can only say that those we who have tried
the full system from which Shimano cut down the Dura-Ace system found
that it makes us about ten per cent faster over any previously
measured distance -- and without even thinking about beating the
previous time -- because an electronic sensor puts the cyclist in
precisely the right gear for his intended effort at every point, so
the glimmer of a faster future is in there even in this crippled Dura-
Ace cybersystem.

Andre Jute
Surrounded by rattrapante and flybacks

Andre Jute wrote:
That is why they have long had a low-end version of the
autobox that goes into bikes like the Lime to attract *new* people to
cycling, people without the rooted prejudices of current mob of
dinosaurs.

New people won't spend $500 on a bike. Especially a $200 bike with a
$200 automatic transmission (the extra $100 is for novelty). The low end
people wants them to cost less and since they can buy a bike that looks
similar for less than $100, they feel justified.

The high end people wants them to cost more and be made of carbon so
they can brag to their friends.

On Sep 5, 9:50*am, Andre Jute wrote:
On Sep 5, 1:32*pm, Qui si parla Campagnolo wrote:

On Sep 4, 11:59*am, wrote:

http://www.bikeradar.com/news/articl...di2-electronic....

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

And a dude from shimano said it also reduced 'mental fatigue'. Thank
goodness, moving your middle finger a couple of centimeters every few
minutes was SO fatiguing..whew!!

Here's the test, if your mind is flexible enough to encompass it:
Suppose, just for the moment, that Shimano built a fully automatic
gruppo that suffered zero weight penalty against the the fully manual
gruppo, how long do you think it would be before it was on every bike
in the Tour de France? To make it easy for you to get the right
answer, we'll make this a multiple choice question. Choose only one of
a) one year or b) two years.

Then why is it that race cars still have manual transmissions?
Granted finger operated paddle switches in the middle of the steering
wheel on the Formula 1 type cars. But they are manual transmissions,
not automatics. Yet automatic transmissions in cars have been around
for years and years and receive considerable development work every
year by every auto maker. Automatics now have as many or more gears
than manual transmissions. Yet race cars still use manual
transmissions, not automatics. And it will remain that way with bike
racers too, no matter how advanced an auto bike transmission gets.
There are too many variables with bike racing, or just riding, that an
auto cannot anticipate. Take climbing a hill. Sometimes I want to
spin up it, and sometimes I want to stand up and push hard up it. How
is an automatic transmission going to know what kind of exertion level
I want on this hill and what kind of speed I want up this hill? How
will it know I want a hard gear to stand up on the hill and power over
it or an easy gear I can sit and spin up the hill?




Fractions of a second mount up, especially in top-level endurance
racing where you can safely assume that in a sprint, fresh in the
morning, all the riders are equally fast. Mental attention not spent
elsewhere becomes available for other elements that contribute to the
very slender margin between being victorious and coming second --
second is only the first of the losers.

Whether there are enough fractions of a second in electronically
assisted manual changes, or other savings in longevity for instance,
in this truncated cyber-system being offered to racers, to make it
attractive, I don't know. I can only say that those we who have tried
the full system from which Shimano cut down the *Dura-Ace system found
that it makes us about ten per cent faster over any previously
measured distance -- and without even thinking about beating the
previous time -- because an electronic sensor puts the cyclist in
precisely the right gear for his intended effort at every point, so
the glimmer of a faster future is in there even in this crippled Dura-
Ace cybersystem.

Andre Jute
Surrounded by rattrapante and flybacks