Doping -- Le Monde editorial

Robert Chung wrote:

"Ed-D" wrote in message
...

What has this to do with the content of the article?

Besides the fact that it is hardly unusual for Le Monde to try to taint
the
achievements of Americans everywhere? Well, nothing I guess....

You think the basis for the article was anti-Americanism?? This shows that
you have neither the context nor the history to evaluate the article.
Perhaps this has escaped you but the French don't really consider the TdF to
be an American event.

The article would almost certainly have been written the same way no matter
who won. Le Monde made a huge deal about the Festina affair, and the Giro
doping raids, and the Rumsas affair, and even the pot belge case in
Perpignan (which was an inconsequential trial connected to French *amateur*
racing). For reasons that have nothing to do with anti-Americanism and
everything to do with the way cycling is perceived in France by the French,
and who promotes cycling in France to the French, Le Monde is
anti-*cycling.*

I know it's simpler to view everything that happens in the world as
pro-American or anti-American and it's simpler to view everything as
left-wing or right-wing but, in this instance, you've been led astray by not
doing your homework, dumbass.

Perhaps he has a #3 decal on his bike?

Robert Chung schreef:

" you've been led astray by not doing your homework, dumbass.

I have been tempted to say Dumbass many times recently.

Eventually I will, to defend Kurgan and RBR Values.

Ed-D wrote:

the article notes that the average speed of stage winners this
year is the fastest on record, even faster than in 1997, the year preceding
the Festina affair, when EPO use was presumably widespread.


2003 : 3427 km ( http://www.cyclingnews.com/road/2003/tour03/?id=stages )
1997 : 3942 km ( http://www.cyclingnews.com/tour.php?...ory/tdfhistory )

"Daniel Connelly" wrote in message
. ..


Ed-D wrote:

the article notes that the average speed of stage winners this
year is the fastest on record, even faster than in 1997, the year
preceding
the Festina affair, when EPO use was presumably widespread.


2003 : 3427 km ( http://www.cyclingnews.com/road/2003/tour03/?id=stages )
1997 : 3942 km (
http://www.cyclingnews.com/tour.php?...ory/tdfhistory )


Average speed 1997: 39,273
2003: 40,956

A difference of almost 1,7 km/h. Only a little bit more than between 1997
and 1962 (4272 km, average speed 37,304).

Benjo Maso

Steve Blankenship wrote:
"Jay Hill" wrote in message
. ..


Common knowledge among whom? Dittoheads? So you think every one of
the thousands of employees at the Times takes a little liberal truth
test and swears fealty to Jesse Jackson & Hillary Clinton?

So you think "every one of the thousands of employees at the Times" has
anything whatsoever to say about editorial content?

No, I don't, which is my point. The yahoos, such as the one I
responded to, that mechanically say the Times is attacking good
conservative morals think all of the Times' writers, not just the
editorial writers, are on a liberal-driven agenda, which is
poppycock. Overall, the editorial writers aren't even unusually
immoderate, unless your perspective is that of a dittohead.

political spectrum of print media in the States and the editorial bent of
the NYT will indeed fall left of center.

Bull****. The Times is driven by money, not politics. If they were
unusually active in any political respect they wouldn't be as
consistently successful as they have been for the 150 years they've
been around.

"Jay Hill" wrote in message
. ..
Steve Blankenship wrote:
"Jay Hill" wrote in message
. ..


Common knowledge among whom? Dittoheads? So you think every one of
the thousands of employees at the Times takes a little liberal truth
test and swears fealty to Jesse Jackson & Hillary Clinton?

So you think "every one of the thousands of employees at the Times" has
anything whatsoever to say about editorial content?

No, I don't, which is my point. The yahoos, such as the one I
responded to, that mechanically say the Times is attacking good
conservative morals think all of the Times' writers, not just the
editorial writers, are on a liberal-driven agenda, which is
poppycock. Overall, the editorial writers aren't even unusually
immoderate, unless your perspective is that of a dittohead.

Unless my newsreader's faulty, I don't recall the poster you responded to
making any such comments, only a much more narrow and general statement
about the NYT's relative politcal position. You obviously are bringing
something more to the table, as evidenced by your repeated references to
Limbaugh. As I said, it just degenerates into an argument based on who's
"perspective" is closer to the "center" (read true, right and virtuous), and
that's an endless argument. The center, after all, only exists as defined
by the extremes and has no more inherent claim to truth or correctness than
any other perspective.

political spectrum of print media in the States and the editorial bent
of
the NYT will indeed fall left of center.

Bull****. The Times is driven by money, not politics. If they were
unusually active in any political respect they wouldn't be as
consistently successful as they have been for the 150 years they've
been around.


I take it you disagree! Fine, but the idea that a significant portion of
the political left is not financially-motivated is ludicrous. You don't
need to be a full-on Marxist to be left of center, and no one's confusing
the NYT with for instance, The Nation. It's not black and white - there's a
broad spectrum on both sides of center, and for sure the NYT is closer to
the center than plenty of other publications - on both sides.

Anyway, since I did say I thought this OT thread wasn't proper fodder for
this NG, I'll stop my hypocrisy here and go back to arguing about how much
better a sprinter Ulrich is than that wuss Petacchi. Last word's yours if
you want it...

I don't know about this either but I do know that Le Monde has numerous axes
to grind with the U.S. government, U.S. private sector companies, and
Americans in general. If I'm not mistaken, they were one of the main forces
behind some of the allegations surrounding Lance Armstrong.

What has this to do with the content of the article?

Doping, maybe ?

Le Monde is the "intellectual" newspaper, in the sense that French society
is extremely polarised: people either read Le Monde or L'Equipe but
not both.

Not true a lot of French intellectuals read L'Equipe too. Generally,
people read either Le Monde or Le Figaro.

As far as I can tell, the only interest Le Monde has in bike
racing is to continually insinuate that all bike racers are dopers,
including completely erroneous reasoning, such as finishing articles
with: "Armstrong's cancer, whose presence has still not been explained."
Or course, anyone with any knowledge of epidemeology knows that you
can't explain any one single cancer, except for a few exceptions like
the one you get from asbestos or plutonium.

As for the increased racing speed compared to previous years, it's
clear that, apart from good weather, the UCI rankings, internationalisation
of the race, and no more "patrons" are all responsable. In particular,
in the old Hinault day you went 30 kph at the start, or else Hinault
would seek you out and make sure you got dropped. Also, riders realise
that winning a stage will make their whole career, so you now see
the race starting from the gun, which almost never happened, even in
1999. The first mountain stage this year literally started this way,
with an attack as soon as the start was given, whereas in 1999, it
was a procession for the first climb, with Cipollini at the front
for the whole climb.

Very good points, I hadn't been looking at things this way

Ed-D schreef in berichtnieuws
...
...I don't know about this either but I do know that Le Monde has numerous
axes
to grind with the U.S. government, U.S. private sector companies, and
Americans in general. If I'm not mistaken, they were one of the main
forces
behind some of the allegations surrounding Lance Armstrong....

I really have a lot of trouble envisioning how accusing the peloton of the
TdF can be construed as anti-american in any way. After all, only 4 riders
out of a 147 who finished (and with that, actually contributed to the high
average speed) were from the USA. It's not a race organised nor dominated by
Americans. I don't read Le Monde, so i'll leave you to your imaginations of
whatever bias that newspaper might have, but such allegations of doping use
are not anti-american.

Ofcourse, stating that the peloton uses doping implies that Armstrong has
also used it - especially since he's the one who set that new speed record
(even though it has to be pointed out that, for example, Ullrich's average
speed is not much different). He did so several times since Pantani, in
fact. If some kind of dope is in use, then I would not expect Armstrong to
be an exception. He needs to keep up, he has obligations, people around him
depend on his success, it can't be detected, and without it he would be at a
disadvantage. I'm not saying he's guilty, but if there is still a lot of
doping, then Armstrong probably uses it, just as one can assume Indurain
used EPO.

I'm inclined to believe that there still is doping in the peloton (so, if
you're wondering, yes I do think that Armstrong has used it). The high
average speed seems to confirm it, but also the fact that riders would
attack right at the beginning of 200+ km stages, after days of fast riding,
in hot weather. Perhaps it was a bit naive of tour organisers to think that
shorter stages would end the doping problem; all it seems to have done is
make riders go faster and attack earlier.

I don't think doping will leave the sport. My biggest regret about it is
that the public opinion is mostly concerned with catching individual riders
and then destroying their careers - Pantani being a case in point. The
consequences he suffered haven't really been fair if you think about how
many riders have used EPO. But otherwise, riders like Armstrong, Ullrich and
other GC riders can shoot what they want for all I care. I just hope they
have the sense to consult a doctor.

Jonathan.

I think Le Monde pretty much represents the center these days. Le Canard
Enchainé, Libé, L'Humanité, are definitely to the left of Lemonde. Of course
that's center in terms of French politics. In US terms they're left.

"Ed-D" a écrit dans le message de
...
"Arthur Ogus" wrote in message
...
In article , Ed-D
wrote:

"Rico X. Partay" wrote in message
et...
"Ed-D" wrote in message
...

actually Le Monde is pretty left wing.




Not sure what that is supposed to mean, but it's common knowledge that
the
Times is left-of-center.


"Well-known" thanks to the relentness campaign of the right-wing.

uh, no actually that's not why. Paris has something like six or seven
daily
newspapers, ranging from Le Figaro (which is considered conservative) to
l'Humanite (Communist). Le Monde is definitely on the left of that
spectrum.

Meaningless nonetheless.



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