Doping -- Le Monde editorial

"Robert Chung" wrote in message ...

You think the basis for the article was anti-Americanism?? This shows that
you have neither the context nor the history to evaluate the article.
Perhaps this has escaped you but the French don't really consider the TdF to
be an American event.

The article would almost certainly have been written the same way no matter
who won. Le Monde made a huge deal about the Festina affair, and the Giro
doping raids, and the Rumsas affair, and even the pot belge case in
Perpignan (which was an inconsequential trial connected to French *amateur*
racing). For reasons that have nothing to do with anti-Americanism and
everything to do with the way cycling is perceived in France by the French,
and who promotes cycling in France to the French, Le Monde is
anti-*cycling.*

A completely correct analysis, in my opinion.

Things may changing though. I was at the bookstore "L'Ecume des Pages"
which is adjacent to the Cafe de Flore where the pretentious royalty
of French Intellectualism used to congregate (Sartre, Simone de Beauvoir,
and now BHL = Bernard Henri Levy, unknown outside France, but
successor to Sartre, and "rock star" philosopher married to screen
diva Arielle Dombasle) and the salesman was
loudly going off about Beloki's crash and Armstrong's amazing save.

-ilan

"trg" wrote in message
...
I think Le Monde pretty much represents the center these days. Le Canard
Enchainé, Libé, L'Humanité, are definitely to the left of Lemonde. Of course
that's center in terms of French politics. In US terms they're left.


not only left, far left.

"Ed-D" a écrit dans le message de
...
"Arthur Ogus" wrote in message
...
In article , Ed-D
wrote:

"Rico X. Partay" wrote in message
et...
"Ed-D" wrote in message
...

actually Le Monde is pretty left wing.




Not sure what that is supposed to mean, but it's common knowledge that
the
Times is left-of-center.


"Well-known" thanks to the relentness campaign of the right-wing.

uh, no actually that's not why. Paris has something like six or seven
daily
newspapers, ranging from Le Figaro (which is considered conservative) to
l'Humanite (Communist). Le Monde is definitely on the left of that
spectrum.

Meaningless nonetheless.



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"Jay Hill" wrote in message
. ..
Ed-D wrote:
Not sure what that is supposed to mean, but it's common knowledge
that the
Times is left-of-center.

Common knowledge among whom? Dittoheads?

No, among the non-incarcerated, non-institutionalized population of the
Western world. In other words, people very much unlike yourself.

So you think every one of
the thousands of employees at the Times takes a little liberal truth
test and swears fealty to Jesse Jackson & Hillary Clinton?


That actually wouldn't surprise me one bit.

"Clovis Lark" wrote in message
...
Ed-D wrote:
"Clovis Lark" wrote in message
...
Ed-D wrote:
"AMG" wrote in message
...
The French journal Le Monde ran an editorial (July 27) suggesting that
the
TdF may not be free of doping, despite the extensive urine and blood
testing
that is now performed under the direction of the UCI. While not an
accusation, the article notes that the average speed of stage winners
this
year is the fastest on record, even faster than in 1997, the year
preceding
the Festina affair, when EPO use was presumably widespread.

The piece goes on to suggest two possible reasons: (1) Climate
conditions
were ideal this year, and the riders also benefited from tailwinds, or
(2)
New techniques for evading the chemical controls have been put into
play.
The official TdF line is apparently (1). The speeds themselves are not
disputed, since they are essentially a public record.

For perspective, Le Monde is something along the lines of the New York
Times -- a fairly well-respected middle-of-the-political-spectrum
newspaper

actually Le Monde is pretty left wing. So too is the NY Times.

Actually, not.

well if you say so....

Remembering that it was the NYT that parratted everything that United
Fruit and the Pentagon stated about Guatemala in the 1950's, remembering
how the NYT fired Pulitzer Prize winner Sydney Schanberg for taking on the
biggest landlords in NYC in his OpEd columns, I'd say they left wing is
hardly a description for the Ochs/Sulzberger families' holding. Recently,
they were extremely quiet about false claims concerning Iraq.


So basically what you have to support your case is a few examples from the
1950s (when most posters to this newsgroup, myself included, weren't even
born) and some heresay about "false claims concerning Iraq". I don't read the
Times much anymore, but if they weren't extremely vocal about the "false
claims concerning Iraq" it's only because they shot themselves in the foot
with their war-time predictions about "overextended supplylines" and
"quagmire". (In fairness they didn't come out as bad as the New Yorker at the
time, who took the opportunity to go on record with predicting "another
Vietnam", thus forever destroying any credibility they might have had on
global politics...although something tells me they had probably used the
Vietnam analogy with every single U.S. military operation since 1975)


(rather than a tabloid, for example), but not particularly a sports
rag.

That is true.

I
don't know its history well enough to know whether it has any axes to
grind
with the TdF.


I don't know about this either but I do know that Le Monde has numerous
axes
to grind with the U.S. government, U.S. private sector companies, and
Americans in general. If I'm not mistaken, they were one of the main
forces
behind some of the allegations surrounding Lance Armstrong.

What has this to do with the content of the article?


Besides the fact that it is hardly unusual for Le Monde to try to taint
the
achievements of Americans everywhere? Well, nothing I guess....

I pointed out that it was clear this comment had no knowledge of the
content of the Le Monde article. It is good to read articles before
assassinating their messengers.


not in this instance. When you're dealing with an organization as nefarious as
Le Monde their reputation precedes them.

The article (in French) is available by going to www.lemonde.fr. In
the
box
at upper left entitled Rechercher, type in "dopage" (no quotes needed)
and
click the arrow. On the list of articles that comes up, look for "Un
Tour
trop vite?" Right now it seems to be the second article listed, and
for
the
moment, at least, it is available for free. I don't know of an English
version, but I know there are at least a few francophones out there
who
might find this of interest...

------------

"Jonathan v.d. Sluis" wrote in message
...
Ed-D schreef in berichtnieuws
...
...I don't know about this either but I do know that Le Monde has numerous
axes
to grind with the U.S. government, U.S. private sector companies, and
Americans in general. If I'm not mistaken, they were one of the main
forces
behind some of the allegations surrounding Lance Armstrong....

I really have a lot of trouble envisioning how accusing the peloton of the
TdF can be construed as anti-american in any way.

Simple: If that's what the peloton is doing, what does it say about the guy
who is faster than the entire peloton?

After all, only 4 riders
out of a 147 who finished (and with that, actually contributed to the high
average speed) were from the USA. It's not a race organised nor dominated by
Americans.

Right. It's not like an American has won the last five tours or anything.

I don't read Le Monde, so i'll leave you to your imaginations of
whatever bias that newspaper might have, but such allegations of doping use
are not anti-american.

In this case they are.


Ofcourse, stating that the peloton uses doping implies that Armstrong has
also used it - especially since he's the one who set that new speed record

duuuuuuuh....yeah

(even though it has to be pointed out that, for example, Ullrich's average
speed is not much different). He did so several times since Pantani, in
fact. If some kind of dope is in use, then I would not expect Armstrong to
be an exception.

Ah see? Here we go. This is exactly the kind of thinking the article is
trying to encourage.

He needs to keep up, he has obligations, people around him
depend on his success, it can't be detected, and without it he would be at a
disadvantage. I'm not saying he's guilty, but if there is still a lot of
doping, then Armstrong probably uses it, just as one can assume Indurain
used EPO.

I'm inclined to believe that there still is doping in the peloton (so, if
you're wondering, yes I do think that Armstrong has used it).

Do you really think somebody who has survived cancer would take that risk?

The high
average speed seems to confirm it, but also the fact that riders would
attack right at the beginning of 200+ km stages, after days of fast riding,
in hot weather. Perhaps it was a bit naive of tour organisers to think that
shorter stages would end the doping problem; all it seems to have done is
make riders go faster and attack earlier.

I don't think doping will leave the sport. My biggest regret about it is
that the public opinion is mostly concerned with catching individual riders
and then destroying their careers - Pantani being a case in point. The
consequences he suffered haven't really been fair if you think about how
many riders have used EPO. But otherwise, riders like Armstrong, Ullrich and
other GC riders can shoot what they want for all I care. I just hope they
have the sense to consult a doctor.

Jonathan.

Ed-D wrote:

"Clovis Lark" wrote in message
...
John Forrest Tomlinson wrote:
"Clovis Lark" wrote in message
...
Ed-D
I don't know about this either but I do know that Le Monde has
numerous axes
to grind with the U.S. government, U.S. private sector companies,
and
Americans in general. If I'm not mistaken, they were one of the
main forces
behind some of the allegations surrounding Lance Armstrong.

What has this to do with the content of the article?


The article was an editorial. As such it is almost expected to
reflect the biases of the writers or the paper as a whole.

The comment above is noting that the paper has certain "issues", but has
no reference to the actual article. I wonder whether the poster even read
it. That's why I made my comment.


The poster (myself) didn't read the article. He didn't need to. He knows from
reading past propaganda from Le Monde what to expect from them.

why did your clairvoyance stop with Le Monde? You should have also been
able to scope out this thread and not even bothered reading or posting...

JT

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Ed-D wrote:
"Clovis Lark" wrote in message
...
Ed-D wrote:
"Clovis Lark" wrote in message
...
Ed-D wrote:
"AMG" wrote in message
...
The French journal Le Monde ran an editorial (July 27) suggesting that
the
TdF may not be free of doping, despite the extensive urine and blood
testing
that is now performed under the direction of the UCI. While not an
accusation, the article notes that the average speed of stage winners
this
year is the fastest on record, even faster than in 1997, the year
preceding
the Festina affair, when EPO use was presumably widespread.

The piece goes on to suggest two possible reasons: (1) Climate
conditions
were ideal this year, and the riders also benefited from tailwinds, or
(2)
New techniques for evading the chemical controls have been put into
play.
The official TdF line is apparently (1). The speeds themselves are not
disputed, since they are essentially a public record.

For perspective, Le Monde is something along the lines of the New York
Times -- a fairly well-respected middle-of-the-political-spectrum
newspaper

actually Le Monde is pretty left wing. So too is the NY Times.

Actually, not.

well if you say so....

Remembering that it was the NYT that parratted everything that United
Fruit and the Pentagon stated about Guatemala in the 1950's, remembering
how the NYT fired Pulitzer Prize winner Sydney Schanberg for taking on the
biggest landlords in NYC in his OpEd columns, I'd say they left wing is
hardly a description for the Ochs/Sulzberger families' holding. Recently,
they were extremely quiet about false claims concerning Iraq.


So basically what you have to support your case is a few examples from the
1950s (when most posters to this newsgroup, myself included, weren't even
born) and some heresay about "false claims concerning Iraq". I don't read the

Admitting your age, little boy, was foolish... Demonstrating it is simply
foolhardy...

Times much anymore, but if they weren't extremely vocal about the "false
claims concerning Iraq" it's only because they shot themselves in the foot
with their war-time predictions about "overextended supplylines" and
"quagmire". (In fairness they didn't come out as bad as the New Yorker at the
time, who took the opportunity to go on record with predicting "another
Vietnam", thus forever destroying any credibility they might have had on
global politics...although something tells me they had probably used the
Vietnam analogy with every single U.S. military operation since 1975)

What might that something be? Your clairvoyance? Remember, you do't need
to read anything to actually know what its content might be...


(rather than a tabloid, for example), but not particularly a sports
rag.

That is true.

I
don't know its history well enough to know whether it has any axes to
grind
with the TdF.


I don't know about this either but I do know that Le Monde has numerous
axes
to grind with the U.S. government, U.S. private sector companies, and
Americans in general. If I'm not mistaken, they were one of the main
forces
behind some of the allegations surrounding Lance Armstrong.

What has this to do with the content of the article?


Besides the fact that it is hardly unusual for Le Monde to try to taint
the
achievements of Americans everywhere? Well, nothing I guess....

I pointed out that it was clear this comment had no knowledge of the
content of the Le Monde article. It is good to read articles before
assassinating their messengers.


not in this instance. When you're dealing with an organization as nefarious as
Le Monde their reputation precedes them.

Do you work for homeland security?

The article (in French) is available by going to www.lemonde.fr. In
the
box
at upper left entitled Rechercher, type in "dopage" (no quotes needed)
and
click the arrow. On the list of articles that comes up, look for "Un
Tour
trop vite?" Right now it seems to be the second article listed, and
for
the
moment, at least, it is available for free. I don't know of an English
version, but I know there are at least a few francophones out there
who
might find this of interest...

------------

Ed-D schreef in berichtnieuws
...
I really have a lot of trouble envisioning how accusing the peloton of
the
TdF can be construed as anti-american in any way.

Simple: If that's what the peloton is doing, what does it say about the
guy
who is faster than the entire peloton?

He is not personally responsible for the high average speed. Ullrich is just
a minute slower over thousands of kms; is the article anti-german as well?
If you would want to point out who is actually responsible, I'd say it would
be the attackers and the riders leading the peloton. These two decide how
fast a single stage will go. It doesn't matter that much for Armstrong: he
can draft behind a teammate most of the time. A few kms/h is much easier
that way.


After all, only 4 riders
out of a 147 who finished (and with that, actually contributed to the
high
average speed) were from the USA. It's not a race organised nor
dominated by
Americans.

Right. It's not like an American has won the last five tours or anything.

That is not the same as the domination of a nationality. If you'd walk
around at some place where the tour goes, you'd see how this race is not
dominated by any nationality, not even by the French.

....
Do you really think somebody who has survived cancer would take that risk?

Yes. And I wonder how big the risk really is, if applied with sense.

Jonathan.

Translation of the article:




The fifth consecutive success of the American Launches Armstrong will
remain like most difficult to obtain, most dubious, most intelligently
also built, as well Texan dominated its adversaries top of its
experiment more as of its pure class. The memorialists will also retain
that the Turn 2003 was among more haletants and most spectacular of the
history: dehydrations due to the heat wave, falls of all the principal
leaders, veins and bad lucks for Armstrong Lance, fair play of its
principal adversary, Jan Ullrich, and suspense guaranteed until the end,
the day before the arrival in Paris.

Undeniable sporting success, the Turn 2003 will have delighted the
witnesses, always so many on the edges of the roads, the diffusers,
which beat records of audience, and the partners, which are pleased to
see the Outer Loop taking an international character, with the image of
a World cup of football or of a great tennis tournament.

Spectacular, the race will have also been it by the rate/rhythm to which
it was carried out during three weeks. The Turn 2003 is fastest of the
history. Never the time average of the test - calculated according to
the average carried out by each winner of stage - had not been also
high: 40,94 km/h. Launch Armstrong and its following rolled more quickly
in 2003 than in 1999, more quickly than in 1997, the year preceding the
"Festina scandal" , which had revealed the extent of the recourse to
doping in the group, and in particular the use of érythropoïétine (EPO),
a hormone which facilitates the transport of oxygen in blood.

Vis-a-vis this report, two possibilities. One, optimistic: the runners
of Turn 2003 often profited from ideal climatic conditions and the
wind in the back - it is the assumption retained by the officers of
the company of the Turn of France. The other, pessimistic: they found
parades to circumvent controls antidopage, a reflex as old as the
sport cyclist. The recourse to the blood transfusions could be one of
these parades. The use of manifestly undetectable products during
controls, the such growth hormones, could provide another solution to
the cheaters.

The results of the controls diligentés by the international Union
cyclist (UCI), jealously preserved by-towards it, have all be negative.
The ministry for the sports and the Council of prevention and fight
against doping (CPLD) also carried out urinary controls, of which a part
related to the search for EPO. Only one runner, whose name and team were
not communicated, while waiting for the results of the
counter-evaluation, presented a hématocrite (rate of red globules)
abnormally high. Only one case of doping supposed, the first since 2001,
it is little.

But the organizers of the Turn of France would be wrong to hide behind
their optimism of frontage to believe that this single case testifies to
the cleansing of the medicamentous practices of the group.



--
--------------------------
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never_doped wrote:
Translation of the article:

An odd use of the word "translation". But as I surmised, the article is
hardly anti-american. It seems more a warning to the organizers that
since doping is as old as competitive cycling, to assume that all is well
is simply naive and counterproductive.


The fifth consecutive success of the American Launches Armstrong will
remain like most difficult to obtain, most dubious, most intelligently
also built, as well Texan dominated its adversaries top of its
experiment more as of its pure class. The memorialists will also retain
that the Turn 2003 was among more haletants and most spectacular of the
history: dehydrations due to the heat wave, falls of all the principal
leaders, veins and bad lucks for Armstrong Lance, fair play of its
principal adversary, Jan Ullrich, and suspense guaranteed until the end,
the day before the arrival in Paris.

Undeniable sporting success, the Turn 2003 will have delighted the
witnesses, always so many on the edges of the roads, the diffusers,
which beat records of audience, and the partners, which are pleased to
see the Outer Loop taking an international character, with the image of
a World cup of football or of a great tennis tournament.

Spectacular, the race will have also been it by the rate/rhythm to which
it was carried out during three weeks. The Turn 2003 is fastest of the
history. Never the time average of the test - calculated according to
the average carried out by each winner of stage - had not been also
high: 40,94 km/h. Launch Armstrong and its following rolled more quickly
in 2003 than in 1999, more quickly than in 1997, the year preceding the
"Festina scandal" , which had revealed the extent of the recourse to
doping in the group, and in particular the use of érythropoïétine (EPO),
a hormone which facilitates the transport of oxygen in blood.

Vis-a-vis this report, two possibilities. One, optimistic: the runners
of Turn 2003 often profited from ideal climatic conditions and the
wind in the back - it is the assumption retained by the officers of
the company of the Turn of France. The other, pessimistic: they found
parades to circumvent controls antidopage, a reflex as old as the
sport cyclist. The recourse to the blood transfusions could be one of
these parades. The use of manifestly undetectable products during
controls, the such growth hormones, could provide another solution to
the cheaters.

The results of the controls diligentés by the international Union
cyclist (UCI), jealously preserved by-towards it, have all be negative.
The ministry for the sports and the Council of prevention and fight
against doping (CPLD) also carried out urinary controls, of which a part
related to the search for EPO. Only one runner, whose name and team were
not communicated, while waiting for the results of the
counter-evaluation, presented a hématocrite (rate of red globules)
abnormally high. Only one case of doping supposed, the first since 2001,
it is little.

But the organizers of the Turn of France would be wrong to hide behind
their optimism of frontage to believe that this single case testifies to
the cleansing of the medicamentous practices of the group.



--
--------------------------
Posted via cyclingforums.com
http://www.cyclingforums.com