How many Miles a day is reasonable..

I live in the Detroit area, Rochester Hills specifically, and I ride a
lot. One thing that I think will be very important in your planning is
to make sure you take into consideration the amount of hills. I can't
stress enough how much riding on hills takes out of the average person.
Two of my kids, both normal average boys age 11 and 14, will ride with
me now and then and based on my experience I don't think you should
even consider more than 40 miles per day. You will need to have the 14
year olds do some training to be able to make 40 miles per day. Good
luck. I think it is a great idea, just maybe a bit too ambitious.
David

wrote in message
oups.com...


I was wondering if I could get 100 or 125 miles a day out of them?
Adult chaparones will likely be limited somewhat in the amount of time
they can take off work.. so I would like to get there.. enjoy a day in
NY.. then drive them home all in 6 days time.

Am I dreaming.. or is it possible?


I think you are aiming high. Reason - earlier this year, my 16-year old, who
is a keen cyclist did the Tour of Normandy, which is 300 miles (500km)in 2.5
days. Terrain, undulating with some serious climbs in it: weather was wet +
windy+ cold. He did it, but it knackered him and he was the youngest to
complete the event. This was done to a schedule of days 1 & 2, each 100km
before lunch and 100km after lunch. He didn't have to carry anything and
refreshment stops were provided. No doubt they could do it, but if they
aren't already commmitted cyclists you may well get kids who need to drop
out and kids who are put of cycling for a long time. With a lower mileage
per day they could do it and it still be challenging, but they could also
have fun instead of it possibly turning into an all-day slog each day.

Cheers, helen s

DrLith wrote:

No, but I do have kids, and it scares me to think that an uneducated
parent might entrust theirs to an uneducated leader planning a
physically challenging and potentially dangerous activity based on input
from the internet.

What in the world gave you the idea that I would plan only from the
internet? No moron would ever consider that. Come on. It is a good
place to get started though don't you think? A good place to place my
initial ideas out there to get them critiqued? Notice, I asked for a
critiqe of my ideas, (not an all out attack on my personal character
and judgment, which you have seen fit to provide)

I also will not be "uneducated" in this plan... as I said, I am
starting working on it 9 months in advance. I also know these boys
and their families.. it is a church Scout group, and I have known all
of them since they were six... so their famlies would hardly be
"uneducated" in trusting them to me and my collegues in plannig and
executing a safe trip for them. Maybe I know these kids so well that I
know that having them a little sore for a few days may not be a bad
thing for them.. for them to have to undertake a hard thing and
accomplish it, for themselves, is a good thing. So you can berate me
all you want for not being part of the cycling elite, as you appear to
condsider yourself... but I am pretty confident I can pull this off,
given 9 months to do it.

You have basically proposed an activity that is in
the same realm of challenge as a marathon, with totally inadequate
support, for four days straight.

How do you know anything about my support plans? You are just blindly
raging against something that you have no idea about. Your screen
name indicates you are a doctor.. If you are a medical doctor I hope
you don't jump to conclusions in your profession like you do on this
newsgroup. (Hmmm.. imagine that.. a doctor with no idea how to engage
in civil discourse and a distinct lack to tact.. and who thinks he is
better than those around him.. who would have thunk it.) This summer I
(and 4 other adults) took the same group of boys down class 4 rapids,
all of them in individual rubber "Ducky" rafts. We did that safely.. I
am pretty sure we can bike a few hundred miles safely, with proper
research and preparations.

So, I'm sorry if you think I'm being condescending,

I don't just "think" you are condescending... in fact you ARE being
condescending.

but what you proposed was not just unrealistic, but dangerous.

My Scout Troop, back in the '80's did this very same trip, that is in
fact where I got the idea. I was not a part of it back then, and I am
in the process of tracking down those who did it back then to hear from
them what they did and how, and what they would recomend. But while I
was waiting for them to get back to me, I thought I would get feedback
from this group. So I am confident that it can be done, since it HAS
been done.

Not only that, but your first round of input read like "35 miles. 50
miles. Maybe 60 miles" and you come back with "so is 125 miles
unrealistic?" It makes me think you were not really listening to what
others were saying.

The first round of answers did not seem to take into account that all
camping, and meals would be done for the bikers. It seemed like
answers were based upon the bikers having to cook and make/break camp
every day, having fewer hours on the bike. That may have been because
I was not clear in my initial post, so I though I would be more
specific about the type of support we could provide... and follow up
with specific questions.


To do this safely you would need to: (a) plan on about 50 miles a day,
max, and ensure that the kids have done adequate training beforehand.
(b) have adults "along for the ride," including folks who know basic
bike repair and have basic tools/ repair equip. (c) make sure all the
kids have decent equipment, including decent bikes that are sized for
14-yo bodies, properly fitted, in excellent mechanical condition, proper
saddles, padded shorts, gloves, helmets, touring shoes; and (d) have
planned rest breaks, meal stops, and vast quantities of food and water
available during them.

Do you live in the real world... have you ever tried to "plan rest
breaks" for 14 year olds... They rest when they are tired.. and I will
make them wear helmets... but I doubt I will get them into those fancy
shorts you guys wear...

On 4 Oct 2005 13:07:10 -0700, wrote:

Do you live in the real world... have you ever tried to "plan rest
breaks" for 14 year olds... They rest when they are tired.. and I will
make them wear helmets... but I doubt I will get them into those fancy
shorts you guys wear...

How many of the 14y.o. will you be taking on this trip? How many of the
adults have ever done a trip like this as a tour leader? I'd try and have
one adult for every two or three children. It would also be a good idea to
take a couple one-day trips on bikes and a couple two day trips prior to
the final ride to iron out the difficulties.

How many miles have you ridden in the past four months. If you're not a
cyclist, I presume you'll be training on similar terrain, riding at least
one 100-125mile ride per week for the next nine months?

Good luck.

jj

I think that you are getting reactions that can be viewed as insulting,
but mainly because lots of folks here think that the way you posed the
initial question indicated a lack of understanding of what you were
proposing.
So, without being condescending I'd like to suggest several points:
1) perhaps 100+ mile days are possible for 14 yo's but several of them
back to back will not be fun for most of them
2) most serious adult recreational cyclists have never done back to
back 100 mile days
3) even a single 100 mile day is a serius effort and requires training
to be accomlished with any comfort
4) your point about 14 yo's attention span and rest days is valid. But
they will be exhausted by what you propose.
5) and as to attention span think of 14 yo's doing the same thing-
pedaling- all day every day. I think that this requires more
concentration than an activity such as hiking as hiking has varied
footsteps etc.

Others have suggested that a good test for such an effort would involve
less "comitted" outings such as 2 50 mile days, or even one 50 mile day
to get going.
So, yes all is possible, but it could be less than fun without super
preparation.

wrote:
but I am pretty confident I can pull this off, given 9 months to do it.

IMHO, this isn't something that you (or any of the troop's adults) should
pull off. This is something the boys should pull off, and they should be
doing more than just riding their bikes for n miles a day. The youth
leaders should be planning the trip, and the boys should be doing more on
the trip than just riding their bikes. Maybe the gear will be in the
support vehicles rather than on the bikes, but the boys should be setting
up camp, preparing meals, cleaning up, packing up camp, etc., just as they
would for a backpacking trip.

But further discussion on this issue would be more appropriate in a
rec.scouting group than a rec.bicycles group.
--
Darin McGrew, , http://www.rahul.net/mcgrew/
Web Design Group, , http://www.HTMLHelp.com/

"If you loan $20 to someone you never see again, it was probably worth it."

In article ,
Roger Zoul wrote:

I think that's hard for kids who haven't trained to ride all day every day
for a total of 500 miles in hot and muggy weather. i'd have to think about
doing that!

Living in the climate he's planning on riding through, I find that if
you're dressed for it and drink enough water, it's not too difficult
to handle. Not something you'd plan to push yourself as hard in as if
it were cooler and/or drier, but still quite manageable.
It's probably not much different from what they're used to having every
summer anyways. Being used to it in general makes it a lot easier to
handle when you're riding in it.


and what is the terrain like? It makes a difference.

Flat-ish. Not pancake-flat, but no long steep climbs or descents,
and not too many that are even one of long or steep.
If you cross the Niagara Escarpment, you get a long fast descent going
eastbound, or a brutal climb going westbound, but that's a one-time thing.
If you're starting and ending on the same side, you probably want to
avoid crossing it at all.
Leaving from Detroit and ending in NYState, you'd probably cross at
Detroit and somewhere on the Niagara river... probably lose tens of
meters of elevation between the two border crossings, possibly a few
hundred. Not enough that you'd notice it over that kind of distance -
local hills would make more of a difference than the fact that you're
going downstream.


And what
is the route - lightly travelled by car & trucks?

Most SWOntario back roads are fairly well-maintained and traffic isn't too
heavy. Not sure how hard/easy it would be to plan a route that's entirely
like that without going through it ahead of time to take a look at the
options, though - I've not seen any maps with that kind of information.


dave

--
Dave Vandervies
[A] colleague who shall remain nameless always claimed (in jest, I think) that
the University motto should be: "Waterloo - Not as bad as it sounds"
--Alex Lopez-Ortiz in uw.general

In article .com,
wrote:
Good info so far.. and to answer some of your questions:

They will be traveling with no luggage, just a little food for the day,
and obviously water, support van carrys rest.

I would recommend having a support truck with water and food travelling
with the cyclists in addition to the van carrying luggage and such.
I have trouble making a 2-hour ride in SWOntario summer weather with the
amount of water I can carry at the start; going an entire day on water
you're carrying with you will dehydrate you pretty quickly, and trying
to add food to that will make it worse.

Have everybody carry water bottles to drink from as needed, plus have
frequent-ish rest stops for snacking (tasty simple carbs to make up for
what they're burning off) and topping up water bottles. The rest stops
will also make it easier to keep the group together. "Rest stop every
half hour" probably won't work - watch for when they're ready for it
and do it then, not on a fixed schedule.

Having a truck escort will also make it easier to deal with breakdowns -
just put the bike and rider on the truck, minor problems can be dealt with
at the next rest stop, major ones you can save for the end-of-day stop.



I am thinking on the road 6:30am and do pretty much the whole day, not
formal scheduled stops... they can rest when needed on their own
throughout the day.. but pretty much just keep it in gear until they
reach the night location. Adult chaparones will take care of camp
cleanup, packup in the morning.. .then setup & dinner on the next
camp... in order to give them the most number of hours on the bikes.

I expect you'll be limited by how long they can handle being on the bikes,
not how much time in a day you can allocate for it. Having chaperones
take care of camp details will help some with attention span and overall
energy, but you won't gain anywhere close to the amount of time it would
take the kids to do it.


dave

--
Dave Vandervies
[A] colleague who shall remain nameless always claimed (in jest, I think) that
the University motto should be: "Waterloo - Not as bad as it sounds"
--Alex Lopez-Ortiz in uw.general

Dave Vandervies wrote:
In article ,
Roger Zoul wrote:

I think that's hard for kids who haven't trained to ride all day every day
for a total of 500 miles in hot and muggy weather. i'd have to think about
doing that!

Living in the climate he's planning on riding through, I find that if
you're dressed for it and drink enough water, it's not too difficult
to handle.

Do you really think that 500 miles in several days is "... not too
difficult to handle...." ?

I think that it would be very difficult and represent a real
accomplishment. I'd guess that less than 1% of all "serious" cyclists
have ever done as much.

wrote ...
Good info so far.. and to answer some of your questions:

They will be traveling with no luggage, just a little food for the day,
and obviously water, support van carrys rest.

Bikes, they should have pretty good ones.. we will borrow if we need to
in order to get suitable bikes. Not high end racers.. but decent ones.


Define "pretty good bikes", and please explain how you will ensure how the
borrowed bikes are sized properly for their riders. How many people do you
know who own bicycles suitable for this kind of undertaking who would loan
them to a 14 year old for a trip like this?


I am thinking on the road 6:30am and do pretty much the whole day, not
formal scheduled stops... they can rest when needed on their own
throughout the day.. but pretty much just keep it in gear until they
reach the night location. Adult chaparones will take care of camp
cleanup, packup in the morning.. .then setup & dinner on the next
camp... in order to give them the most number of hours on the bikes.

Part of a bike tour IS setting up camp, cooking meals, packing up, etc.
Wouldn't the kids benefit from doing these chores under appropriate
supervision? There's far more to a bike tour than "the most number of hours
on the bikes".

If it all works they could get up.. grab breakfast and jump on their
bikes... then roll into camp at night.. camp set & dinner ready.. they
can goof off a while.. maybe swim.. or hit their sleeping bag right
away.. whatever they want.)

This sounds like a forced march, not a bike tour.

I was wondering if I could get 100 or 125 miles a day out of them?
Adult chaparones will likely be limited somewhat in the amount of time
they can take off work.. so I would like to get there.. enjoy a day in
NY.. then drive them home all in 6 days time.

When I was 14 I was able to ride 60-80 miles in one day, but I was awful
tired the next day. Back to back centuries require far more endurance than
any 14 year old I've seen possesses. Are you doing this for the kids or so
that you can get a trip to NY? The phrase "get 100 or 125 miles a day out of
them" suggests that this trip is more about you.

Am I dreaming.. or is it possible?

You're dreaming and you need to wake up before you hurt someone. It might be
possible, but I would not expect those kids to have a very good time, and
there's a good chance that you'll have an injured kid or worse on your
hands. Bicycling on public roads, no matter how lightly travelled, requires
a certain amount of focus and good judgment to avoid getting hit by a car or
crashing one's bike. A 14 year old who has been pushed to his physical
limits as you propose for multiple days stands a very good chance of not
maintaining that level of focus and judgment.
--
mark