Bicycle Theft increasing - UK film short

On Jan 21, 1:03 pm, James wrote:
On Jan 20, 7:06 pm, Michael Press wrote:

You people are _bragging_ that your cat owns you. You
are the ones that give cat haters their ammunition.

I don't hate cats, only irresponsible owners.


I've had a lot of cats as pets in my lifetime. You don't own them;
they don't own you - it's coexistence.

Cats really, really (really) want to go outdoors. A lot of people
keep them exclusively indoors, and I have done so (tried) in certain
places, but based on that experience I can say it's a stressful,
difficult exercise with the chief effect of *greatly* diminishing
their quality of life. Outdoors you simply cannot control a cat, but
they manage themselves well. I agree that disposing of their feces
inappropriately is very aggravating - most cats are much better at
this than some others. And - caring about them as I do - I don't like
their fighting (this is much better where most of the cats are
"fixed"). Some people don't like (really hate) cats killing birds,
but come on - birds have wings, for cryining out loud - and speaking
of inappropriate feces disposal... As for cats killing rodents, well,
most people don't mind that so much. Cats are what they are. They
are magnificent predators, fascinating, highly amiable companions (to
those who understand the parameters), and a reminder of the futility
of trying to control things too much.

On Jan 21, 10:56*pm, Dan O wrote:

Cats really, really (really) want to go outdoors. *...
*Some people don't like (really hate) cats killing birds,
but come on - birds have wings, for cryining out loud - and speaking
of inappropriate feces disposal...

I agree that I don't understand the complaints about cats hunting
birds.

I'm pretty interested in birds. We have feeders hanging just a few
inches from our windows, attracting chickadees, titmice, nuthatches,
downy woodpeckers, goldfinches, cardinals, various wrens, and some
less desirable birds. We've also had sharp shinned hawks and cooper's
hawks pass through. If a sharpie caught a chickadee, I'd feel sorry
for the chickadee, but I'd still congratulate the sharpie. Why should
it be different for a cat?

Besides, we've killed off the bobcats. Don't feral cats occupy the
same niche?

- Frank Krygowski

On Sat, 21 Jan 2012 21:27:08 -0800 (PST), Frank Krygowski
wrote:

[snip]

Besides, we've killed off the bobcats. Don't feral cats occupy the
same niche?

- Frank Krygowski

Dear Frank,

Not quite all the bobcats:
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.b...bc93abbaf33a9d

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

On 22/01/12 16:27, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Jan 21, 10:56 pm, Dan wrote:

Cats really, really (really) want to go outdoors. ...
Some people don't like (really hate) cats killing birds,
but come on - birds have wings, for cryining out loud - and speaking
of inappropriate feces disposal...

I agree that I don't understand the complaints about cats hunting
birds.

I'm pretty interested in birds. We have feeders hanging just a few
inches from our windows, attracting chickadees, titmice, nuthatches,
downy woodpeckers, goldfinches, cardinals, various wrens, and some
less desirable birds. We've also had sharp shinned hawks and cooper's
hawks pass through. If a sharpie caught a chickadee, I'd feel sorry
for the chickadee, but I'd still congratulate the sharpie. Why should
it be different for a cat?

Besides, we've killed off the bobcats. Don't feral cats occupy the
same niche?

Not in Australia.

--
JS.

On 1/22/2012 12:27 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Jan 21, 10:56 pm, Dan wrote:

Cats really, really (really) want to go outdoors. ...
Some people don't like (really hate) cats killing birds,
but come on - birds have wings, for cryining out loud - and speaking
of inappropriate feces disposal...

I agree that I don't understand the complaints about cats hunting
birds.

I'm pretty interested in birds. We have feeders hanging just a few
inches from our windows, attracting chickadees, titmice, nuthatches,
downy woodpeckers, goldfinches, cardinals, various wrens, and some
less desirable birds. We've also had sharp shinned hawks and cooper's
hawks pass through. If a sharpie caught a chickadee, I'd feel sorry
for the chickadee, but I'd still congratulate the sharpie. Why should
it be different for a cat?

Besides, we've killed off the bobcats. Don't feral cats occupy the
same niche?

- Frank Krygowski


http://abcnews.go.com/US/roaming-cat...1#.TxyoQVbeIXM

/"Cats are in fact having population-level effects," said Steve Homer, a
senior policy advisor with the American Bird Conservancy who said he is
longtime cat owner himself. "The big picture is that about a third of
the birds in the United States are in decline, and cats have been
identified as one of the more significant factors in this decline."

Homer said that habitat loss remains the top threat to birds, but
predators rank second. The problem is particularly acute in closed
ecosystems like islands, where cats have been blamed for the extinction
of 33 bird species, Marra said./

An easy solution is to keep cats indoors during the day, easy, since
cats are naturally nocturnal, that's how I always train mine. They kill
mice at night, which isn't a bad thing.

Per Peter Cole:
/"Cats are in fact having population-level effects," said Steve Homer, a
senior policy advisor with the American Bird Conservancy who said he is
longtime cat owner himself. "The big picture is that about a third of
the birds in the United States are in decline, and cats have been
identified as one of the more significant factors in this decline."

Homer said that habitat loss remains the top threat to birds, but
predators rank second. The problem is particularly acute in closed
ecosystems like islands, where cats have been blamed for the extinction
of 33 bird species, Marra said./

Somebody made a movie called "The Secret Life Of Cats" in which
cats are described as the near-perfect predators.

Part of the movie covers a guy in England who did a study in
which he got many home owners to take whatever their cats brought
home, put it in a baggie, and put the baggie in a freezer.

He would come by periodically to inventory the contents of the
baggies.

I can't cite the number of birds and small animals that the
typical cat killed per month - but I remember thinking it was so
large that if somebody just told me straight-up, I would not have
believed it.


An easy solution is to keep cats indoors during the day, easy, since
cats are naturally nocturnal, that's how I always train mine. They kill
mice at night, which isn't a bad thing.

Might depend on what's out there at night. We have foxes and
foxes eat cats. Ditto owls.

I'm 99.9% sure that's what has happened to three or four of the
neighbors' cats over the past year.
--
Pete Cresswell

wrote:
On Sat, 21 Jan 2012 21:27:08 -0800 (PST), Frank Krygowski
wrote:

[snip]

Besides, we've killed off the bobcats. Don't feral cats occupy the
same niche?

- Frank Krygowski

Dear Frank,

Not quite all the bobcats:
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.b...bc93abbaf33a9d

Nice photo!

Actually, I saw my first bobcat in the wild this fall, while riding a
bike trail, no less. It was on the paved trail just 50 yards or so ahead
of us. Amazingly, it didn't immediately disappear into the thick woods
at each side; instead, it trotted up the trail ahead of us for perhaps
100 yards before turning off. (I did have a camera, but my pictures
show nothing identifiable.)

In any case, that was perhaps 75 miles from home. I don't know of a
bobcat sighting in our county since some sketchy ones in the 1960s.
Feral cats will have to do.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On 23/01/12 12:33, (PeteCresswell) wrote:
Per Peter Cole:
/"Cats are in fact having population-level effects," said Steve Homer, a
senior policy advisor with the American Bird Conservancy who said he is
longtime cat owner himself. "The big picture is that about a third of
the birds in the United States are in decline, and cats have been
identified as one of the more significant factors in this decline."

Homer said that habitat loss remains the top threat to birds, but
predators rank second. The problem is particularly acute in closed
ecosystems like islands, where cats have been blamed for the extinction
of 33 bird species, Marra said./

Somebody made a movie called "The Secret Life Of Cats" in which
cats are described as the near-perfect predators.

Part of the movie covers a guy in England who did a study in
which he got many home owners to take whatever their cats brought
home, put it in a baggie, and put the baggie in a freezer.

He would come by periodically to inventory the contents of the
baggies.

I can't cite the number of birds and small animals that the
typical cat killed per month - but I remember thinking it was so
large that if somebody just told me straight-up, I would not have
believed it.


An easy solution is to keep cats indoors during the day, easy, since
cats are naturally nocturnal, that's how I always train mine. They kill
mice at night, which isn't a bad thing.

Might depend on what's out there at night. We have foxes and
foxes eat cats. Ditto owls.

I'm 99.9% sure that's what has happened to three or four of the
neighbors' cats over the past year.

Cats fight with possums and regularly kill ringtail possums that are not
very big. Thankfully brushtail possums can stand up for themselves and
can give a cat a good belting.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_Brushtail_Possum

We have foxes too. There doesn't seem to be a turnover of cats I could
atttribute to foxes around here.

Foxes are more likely to destroy chickens or pet rabbits and the like,
and other native fauna.

Cats should be kept indoors or in a large cage permanently.

--
JS

On 1/22/2012 8:33 PM, (PeteCresswell) wrote:
Per Peter Cole:
/"Cats are in fact having population-level effects," said Steve Homer, a
senior policy advisor with the American Bird Conservancy who said he is
longtime cat owner himself. "The big picture is that about a third of
the birds in the United States are in decline, and cats have been
identified as one of the more significant factors in this decline."

Homer said that habitat loss remains the top threat to birds, but
predators rank second. The problem is particularly acute in closed
ecosystems like islands, where cats have been blamed for the extinction
of 33 bird species, Marra said./

Somebody made a movie called "The Secret Life Of Cats" in which
cats are described as the near-perfect predators.

Part of the movie covers a guy in England who did a study in
which he got many home owners to take whatever their cats brought
home, put it in a baggie, and put the baggie in a freezer.

He would come by periodically to inventory the contents of the
baggies.

I can't cite the number of birds and small animals that the
typical cat killed per month - but I remember thinking it was so
large that if somebody just told me straight-up, I would not have
believed it.


An easy solution is to keep cats indoors during the day, easy, since
cats are naturally nocturnal, that's how I always train mine. They kill
mice at night, which isn't a bad thing.

Might depend on what's out there at night. We have foxes and
foxes eat cats. Ditto owls.

I'm 99.9% sure that's what has happened to three or four of the
neighbors' cats over the past year.

We have fox, raccoon, opossum, etc, they don't seem to be a cat hazard.
We also have coyote, cat is supposedly one of their favorite foods, mine
seems to be able to avoid them. I've never heard of owls taking cats,
must be very large owls.

Peter Cole wrote:
On 1/22/2012 12:27 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:


I agree that I don't understand the complaints about cats hunting
birds.

I'm pretty interested in birds. We have feeders hanging just a few
inches from our windows, attracting chickadees, titmice, nuthatches,
downy woodpeckers, goldfinches, cardinals, various wrens, and some
less desirable birds. We've also had sharp shinned hawks and cooper's
hawks pass through. If a sharpie caught a chickadee, I'd feel sorry
for the chickadee, but I'd still congratulate the sharpie. Why should
it be different for a cat?

Besides, we've killed off the bobcats. Don't feral cats occupy the
same niche?

- Frank Krygowski


http://abcnews.go.com/US/roaming-cat...1#.TxyoQVbeIXM


/"Cats are in fact having population-level effects," said Steve Homer, a
senior policy advisor with the American Bird Conservancy who said he is
longtime cat owner himself. "The big picture is that about a third of
the birds in the United States are in decline, and cats have been
identified as one of the more significant factors in this decline."

Homer said that habitat loss remains the top threat to birds, but
predators rank second. The problem is particularly acute in closed
ecosystems like islands, where cats have been blamed for the extinction
of 33 bird species, Marra said./

An easy solution is to keep cats indoors during the day, easy, since
cats are naturally nocturnal, that's how I always train mine. They kill
mice at night, which isn't a bad thing.

Yes, I'm aware of such articles. As I said, I don't understand the
complaints - or perhaps it would be better to say I don't buy them. For
example:

Yes, I don't doubt that predators are the second threat to birds. I
imagine that's also true for every animal species that is not itself a
top-tier predator. In fact, I recently read that male peregrine falcons
often die by other, younger male peregrines. Cruel as it may seem,
small animals serve as food for other animals, and there is always
competition.

And bird predators are not just cats. Snakes, raccoons, squirrels,
foxes, other birds, even large frogs take birds or their eggs. I
suspect that if all domestic cats were eliminated, predators would
remain the second second worst threat to birds.

The closed island ecosystems are a special case. It sounds like they're
talking about isolated islands where birds evolved with no cats, and
cats were then introduced. I'm all for preventing such introductions
(and Asian Carp and zebra mussels in the Great Lakes, and pythons in the
Everglades, etc.) But I don't live on an island.

I'm also aware, when reading articles like the above, of vague wording:
"one of the more significant factors" - why not give a number? What
percentage of bird predation is by domestic cats? And what would the
percentage have been by bobcats, if we hadn't killed most of them off?

Let me note that I'm not one of the sinners. Yes, we have a cat - or
rather, my wife has the cat that I gave her for her birthday. But she
has declared it must never be allowed out of doors.

Personally, I don't think this makes its life very well rounded. It has
no opportunity to, well, be a cat! If we confined most other animals to
an indoor life, PETA would be all over us.

(Not that I respect an organization that advocates renaming all fish
"sea kittens"! See http://features.peta.org/PETASeaKittens/ )

--
- Frank Krygowski