Heaven and Hell

rOn Sat, 24 Apr 2021 16:14:28 -0400, Radey Shouman
wrote:

John B. writes:

On Fri, 23 Apr 2021 16:01:23 -0400, Radey Shouman
wrote:

John B. writes:

On Wed, 21 Apr 2021 23:16:37 -0400, Radey Shouman
wrote:

John B. writes:

On Wed, 21 Apr 2021 09:52:32 -0400, Radey Shouman
wrote:

John B. writes:

On Tue, 20 Apr 2021 13:28:23 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 4/19/2021 11:18 PM, John B. wrote:

On a personal basis I really can't see what the furor is about. Over
here you are required to wear a mask in a public place - store,
office, etc. and everybody just does it. No leaping up and down,
waving of arms and shouting, "I don't wanna do that". In fact we have
been having some Student protests about the government and even those
protesting are wear masks :-)

Well, I think many right wingers are timid and delicate. They fear that
wearing a mask may decrease their blood oxygen content by a percent, and
they quiver in fear.

More honestly, right wingers jump on even the least plausible
justification for their political posturing.

A very good friend of mine works as a civilian at a naval base.
Supposedly the commander said certain recreation facilities will not be
allowed to open until 80% of sailors are vaccinated. But many are still
refusing.

My guy said it's nuts. He says it's normal for them to be subjected to
mandatory vaccination for other maladies before shipping out, and
there's never any objection.
....
But like every other aspect of COVID, right wing politics trumps both
science and reasonable past practice.

I had been in the Service for more then ten years when I was sent to
Vietnam and had, of course, had shots every year for my whole time in
the service. But as preparation to my sojourn in South East Asia I got
shots on both arms and one "big one" in the butt. After I got my shirt
on and my pants pulled up the ,Medic says, "you aren't going anywhere
for the next few days are you?" And I say "Hows come?". And he says
well, after you get the plague shot (the big one in the arse) we like
you to stay around for a few days", and I say, "you mean some people
get the plague from the shot?", and he don't say nothing.

A little more seriously, I don't know about now but when I was in the
Air Force there was a regulation that you could not refuse any medical
or dental treatment that the doctor prescribed for your health.

Were you ever ordered to take any medical treatments that were not FDA
approved?

I have no idea whether any treatment that was administered to me was
approved by the FDA or not. However I had a guy working for me (in the
U.S.A.F.) who was ordered to have all his teeth pulled. When he argued
that "you can't pull my teeth" he was shown a U.S.A.F. regulation that
stated that failure to accept any medical procedure that was
prescribed by a doctor was punishable by court martial.

I would give pretty good odds that all of the medical treatment you were
ordered to receive had been approved by the FDA, or whatever the
relevant organization was at the time. I suspect that the reason
current US military personnel are merely asked to volunteer for a covid
shot is that it is an experimental treatment, and it would look bad if
it later turned out to have undue side effects.

As I said, I have no idea but back in the early 1950's we used to get
an annual "flu shot" and I remember one year it made so many people
sick that they had to cancel flying for several days as there was no
one available to work on the flight line. Memory is often fallible but
I don't remember having a flu shot after that episode.

It does seem that all three covid shots are associated with some
elevated risk of cerebral blood clots. This does not mean that those at
a high risk of serious illness should avoid the shots, but almost all
those in the military are at an age where they are not at such risk, and
avoiding the vaccine just might be a rational choice.

Plus, didn't the Air Force teach you to think twice when asked to
volunteer for *anything*?

Nope, the rule of thumb was "never volunteer". If they want you they
will come and get you :-)

There you go, why would you expect any different from this generation?

I think you missed the target. My point was that when I was in the
Service shots were not optional.

My point was that when you were in the service, as you said, the rule of
thumb was "never volunteer". I can't see any reason why there should be
an exception for mysteriously voluntary shots.

And I was saying that when I was in the service there were no
"voluntary shots" :-)
--
Cheers,

John B.

John B. writes:

rOn Sat, 24 Apr 2021 16:14:28 -0400, Radey Shouman
wrote:

John B. writes:

On Fri, 23 Apr 2021 16:01:23 -0400, Radey Shouman
wrote:

John B. writes:

On Wed, 21 Apr 2021 23:16:37 -0400, Radey Shouman
wrote:

John B. writes:

On Wed, 21 Apr 2021 09:52:32 -0400, Radey Shouman
wrote:

John B. writes:

On Tue, 20 Apr 2021 13:28:23 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 4/19/2021 11:18 PM, John B. wrote:

On a personal basis I really can't see what the furor is about. Over
here you are required to wear a mask in a public place - store,
office, etc. and everybody just does it. No leaping up and down,
waving of arms and shouting, "I don't wanna do that". In fact we have
been having some Student protests about the government and even those
protesting are wear masks :-)

Well, I think many right wingers are timid and delicate. They fear that
wearing a mask may decrease their blood oxygen content by a percent, and
they quiver in fear.

More honestly, right wingers jump on even the least plausible
justification for their political posturing.

A very good friend of mine works as a civilian at a naval base.
Supposedly the commander said certain recreation facilities will not be
allowed to open until 80% of sailors are vaccinated. But many are still
refusing.

My guy said it's nuts. He says it's normal for them to be subjected to
mandatory vaccination for other maladies before shipping out, and
there's never any objection.
....
But like every other aspect of COVID, right wing politics trumps both
science and reasonable past practice.

I had been in the Service for more then ten years when I was sent to
Vietnam and had, of course, had shots every year for my whole time in
the service. But as preparation to my sojourn in South East Asia I got
shots on both arms and one "big one" in the butt. After I got my shirt
on and my pants pulled up the ,Medic says, "you aren't going anywhere
for the next few days are you?" And I say "Hows come?". And he says
well, after you get the plague shot (the big one in the arse) we like
you to stay around for a few days", and I say, "you mean some people
get the plague from the shot?", and he don't say nothing.

A little more seriously, I don't know about now but when I was in the
Air Force there was a regulation that you could not refuse any medical
or dental treatment that the doctor prescribed for your health.

Were you ever ordered to take any medical treatments that were not FDA
approved?

I have no idea whether any treatment that was administered to me was
approved by the FDA or not. However I had a guy working for me (in the
U.S.A.F.) who was ordered to have all his teeth pulled. When he argued
that "you can't pull my teeth" he was shown a U.S.A.F. regulation that
stated that failure to accept any medical procedure that was
prescribed by a doctor was punishable by court martial.

I would give pretty good odds that all of the medical treatment you were
ordered to receive had been approved by the FDA, or whatever the
relevant organization was at the time. I suspect that the reason
current US military personnel are merely asked to volunteer for a covid
shot is that it is an experimental treatment, and it would look bad if
it later turned out to have undue side effects.

As I said, I have no idea but back in the early 1950's we used to get
an annual "flu shot" and I remember one year it made so many people
sick that they had to cancel flying for several days as there was no
one available to work on the flight line. Memory is often fallible but
I don't remember having a flu shot after that episode.

It does seem that all three covid shots are associated with some
elevated risk of cerebral blood clots. This does not mean that those at
a high risk of serious illness should avoid the shots, but almost all
those in the military are at an age where they are not at such risk, and
avoiding the vaccine just might be a rational choice.

Plus, didn't the Air Force teach you to think twice when asked to
volunteer for *anything*?

Nope, the rule of thumb was "never volunteer". If they want you they
will come and get you :-)

There you go, why would you expect any different from this generation?

I think you missed the target. My point was that when I was in the
Service shots were not optional.

My point was that when you were in the service, as you said, the rule of
thumb was "never volunteer". I can't see any reason why there should be
an exception for mysteriously voluntary shots.

And I was saying that when I was in the service there were no
"voluntary shots" :-)

If there had been, do you think you would have taken them?

On Friday, April 23, 2021 at 7:33:18 PM UTC-7, John B. wrote:
On Fri, 23 Apr 2021 16:01:23 -0400, Radey Shouman
wrote:

John B. writes:

On Wed, 21 Apr 2021 23:16:37 -0400, Radey Shouman
wrote:

John B. writes:

On Wed, 21 Apr 2021 09:52:32 -0400, Radey Shouman
wrote:

John B. writes:

On Tue, 20 Apr 2021 13:28:23 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 4/19/2021 11:18 PM, John B. wrote:

On a personal basis I really can't see what the furor is about. Over
here you are required to wear a mask in a public place - store,
office, etc. and everybody just does it. No leaping up and down,
waving of arms and shouting, "I don't wanna do that". In fact we have
been having some Student protests about the government and even those
protesting are wear masks :-)

Well, I think many right wingers are timid and delicate. They fear that
wearing a mask may decrease their blood oxygen content by a percent, and
they quiver in fear.

More honestly, right wingers jump on even the least plausible
justification for their political posturing.

A very good friend of mine works as a civilian at a naval base.
Supposedly the commander said certain recreation facilities will not be
allowed to open until 80% of sailors are vaccinated. But many are still
refusing.

My guy said it's nuts. He says it's normal for them to be subjected to
mandatory vaccination for other maladies before shipping out, and
there's never any objection.
....
But like every other aspect of COVID, right wing politics trumps both
science and reasonable past practice.

I had been in the Service for more then ten years when I was sent to
Vietnam and had, of course, had shots every year for my whole time in
the service. But as preparation to my sojourn in South East Asia I got
shots on both arms and one "big one" in the butt. After I got my shirt
on and my pants pulled up the ,Medic says, "you aren't going anywhere
for the next few days are you?" And I say "Hows come?". And he says
well, after you get the plague shot (the big one in the arse) we like
you to stay around for a few days", and I say, "you mean some people
get the plague from the shot?", and he don't say nothing.

A little more seriously, I don't know about now but when I was in the
Air Force there was a regulation that you could not refuse any medical
or dental treatment that the doctor prescribed for your health.

Were you ever ordered to take any medical treatments that were not FDA
approved?

I have no idea whether any treatment that was administered to me was
approved by the FDA or not. However I had a guy working for me (in the
U.S.A.F.) who was ordered to have all his teeth pulled. When he argued
that "you can't pull my teeth" he was shown a U.S.A.F. regulation that
stated that failure to accept any medical procedure that was
prescribed by a doctor was punishable by court martial.

I would give pretty good odds that all of the medical treatment you were
ordered to receive had been approved by the FDA, or whatever the
relevant organization was at the time. I suspect that the reason
current US military personnel are merely asked to volunteer for a covid
shot is that it is an experimental treatment, and it would look bad if
it later turned out to have undue side effects.

As I said, I have no idea but back in the early 1950's we used to get
an annual "flu shot" and I remember one year it made so many people
sick that they had to cancel flying for several days as there was no
one available to work on the flight line. Memory is often fallible but
I don't remember having a flu shot after that episode.

It does seem that all three covid shots are associated with some
elevated risk of cerebral blood clots. This does not mean that those at
a high risk of serious illness should avoid the shots, but almost all
those in the military are at an age where they are not at such risk, and
avoiding the vaccine just might be a rational choice.

Plus, didn't the Air Force teach you to think twice when asked to
volunteer for *anything*?

Nope, the rule of thumb was "never volunteer". If they want you they
will come and get you :-)

There you go, why would you expect any different from this generation?
I think you missed the target. My point was that when I was in the
Service shots were not optional.

Yes John, but they only gave us shots for diseases that would disable us, not make us feel crappy. Polio and Plaque and such were something that could stop an army. They couldn't care less if you had a runny nose.

On Friday, April 23, 2021 at 7:38:47 PM UTC-7, John B. wrote:
On Fri, 23 Apr 2021 16:05:19 -0400, Radey Shouman
wrote:

Rolf Mantel writes:

Am 21.04.2021 um 22:44 schrieb Radey Shouman:

Essentially you're telling me that I really should wear a
St. Christopher medal, because it's easier on the pocket than a rabbit's
foot, less likely to smell bad, and won't offend vegans, while
completely begging the question of how either one does any good at all.

Funnily enough, this St Christopher's medal (or something else) has
all but stalled the flu season world-wide; there is no "flu season"
2020/21 to speak of in Europe or the USA.
https://www.today.com/health/flu-season-2020-2021-flu-activity-historic-lows-mask-wearing-t207131

It's not clear that there would have been without it. One respiratory
virus tends to win every year, and largely replace the others. For
example, one flu strain tends to be dominant.

But I take your point that precautions against covid might well have
protected many people against flu. I'm not saying we should not take
any precautions, just that the costs have to be balanced against the
benefits. For example, if a complete lockdown every winter were shown
conclusively to prevent all flu, I would still be against it.
Incidentally I did ask my cardiologist whether the masks had any
effect on the annual cold/flu here and he said that there had been
"almost no respiratory illnesses" since masks had become almost
universally worn here.

John, pneumonia is a respiratory disease and it kills 80% of the older people that die each year. Respiratory diseases as well as Circulatory diseases have been greatly reduced this year (2021) not because masks do anything but because people out of fear began taking care of themselves - walking, riding bikes, jogging etc. Many obese people have been going on diets and losing excess weight.

I warned you that you have to be very careful of doctors because they are as easily propagandized as you are. A MD doesn't give you immunity to being falsely convinced. I think I told you of my Neurologist, who started riding bicycles because of me. He is not putting in 4,000 miles a year but all on the flats. But exercise is exercise. But he too despite being in the middle of a University that contains people that are proving Fauci completely wrong still follows those orders or masks and social distancing and washing his hands until the skin falls off.

On Sat, 24 Apr 2021 21:08:08 -0400, Radey Shouman
wrote:

John B. writes:

rOn Sat, 24 Apr 2021 16:14:28 -0400, Radey Shouman
wrote:

John B. writes:

On Fri, 23 Apr 2021 16:01:23 -0400, Radey Shouman
wrote:

John B. writes:

On Wed, 21 Apr 2021 23:16:37 -0400, Radey Shouman
wrote:

John B. writes:

On Wed, 21 Apr 2021 09:52:32 -0400, Radey Shouman
wrote:

John B. writes:

On Tue, 20 Apr 2021 13:28:23 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 4/19/2021 11:18 PM, John B. wrote:

On a personal basis I really can't see what the furor is about. Over
here you are required to wear a mask in a public place - store,
office, etc. and everybody just does it. No leaping up and down,
waving of arms and shouting, "I don't wanna do that". In fact we have
been having some Student protests about the government and even those
protesting are wear masks :-)

Well, I think many right wingers are timid and delicate. They fear that
wearing a mask may decrease their blood oxygen content by a percent, and
they quiver in fear.

More honestly, right wingers jump on even the least plausible
justification for their political posturing.

A very good friend of mine works as a civilian at a naval base.
Supposedly the commander said certain recreation facilities will not be
allowed to open until 80% of sailors are vaccinated. But many are still
refusing.

My guy said it's nuts. He says it's normal for them to be subjected to
mandatory vaccination for other maladies before shipping out, and
there's never any objection.
....
But like every other aspect of COVID, right wing politics trumps both
science and reasonable past practice.

I had been in the Service for more then ten years when I was sent to
Vietnam and had, of course, had shots every year for my whole time in
the service. But as preparation to my sojourn in South East Asia I got
shots on both arms and one "big one" in the butt. After I got my shirt
on and my pants pulled up the ,Medic says, "you aren't going anywhere
for the next few days are you?" And I say "Hows come?". And he says
well, after you get the plague shot (the big one in the arse) we like
you to stay around for a few days", and I say, "you mean some people
get the plague from the shot?", and he don't say nothing.

A little more seriously, I don't know about now but when I was in the
Air Force there was a regulation that you could not refuse any medical
or dental treatment that the doctor prescribed for your health.

Were you ever ordered to take any medical treatments that were not FDA
approved?

I have no idea whether any treatment that was administered to me was
approved by the FDA or not. However I had a guy working for me (in the
U.S.A.F.) who was ordered to have all his teeth pulled. When he argued
that "you can't pull my teeth" he was shown a U.S.A.F. regulation that
stated that failure to accept any medical procedure that was
prescribed by a doctor was punishable by court martial.

I would give pretty good odds that all of the medical treatment you were
ordered to receive had been approved by the FDA, or whatever the
relevant organization was at the time. I suspect that the reason
current US military personnel are merely asked to volunteer for a covid
shot is that it is an experimental treatment, and it would look bad if
it later turned out to have undue side effects.

As I said, I have no idea but back in the early 1950's we used to get
an annual "flu shot" and I remember one year it made so many people
sick that they had to cancel flying for several days as there was no
one available to work on the flight line. Memory is often fallible but
I don't remember having a flu shot after that episode.

It does seem that all three covid shots are associated with some
elevated risk of cerebral blood clots. This does not mean that those at
a high risk of serious illness should avoid the shots, but almost all
those in the military are at an age where they are not at such risk, and
avoiding the vaccine just might be a rational choice.

Plus, didn't the Air Force teach you to think twice when asked to
volunteer for *anything*?

Nope, the rule of thumb was "never volunteer". If they want you they
will come and get you :-)

There you go, why would you expect any different from this generation?

I think you missed the target. My point was that when I was in the
Service shots were not optional.

My point was that when you were in the service, as you said, the rule of
thumb was "never volunteer". I can't see any reason why there should be
an exception for mysteriously voluntary shots.

And I was saying that when I was in the service there were no
"voluntary shots" :-)

If there had been, do you think you would have taken them?

I really can't say. The first "inoculation" I had was when I was,
probably, 5 years old and once I joined the Air Force they were
annually or more often in some cases. I don't think I ever gave any
thought about "whether or not".
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Sat, 24 Apr 2021 18:18:20 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
wrote:

On Friday, April 23, 2021 at 7:33:18 PM UTC-7, John B. wrote:
On Fri, 23 Apr 2021 16:01:23 -0400, Radey Shouman
wrote:

John B. writes:

On Wed, 21 Apr 2021 23:16:37 -0400, Radey Shouman
wrote:

John B. writes:

On Wed, 21 Apr 2021 09:52:32 -0400, Radey Shouman
wrote:

John B. writes:

On Tue, 20 Apr 2021 13:28:23 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 4/19/2021 11:18 PM, John B. wrote:

On a personal basis I really can't see what the furor is about. Over
here you are required to wear a mask in a public place - store,
office, etc. and everybody just does it. No leaping up and down,
waving of arms and shouting, "I don't wanna do that". In fact we have
been having some Student protests about the government and even those
protesting are wear masks :-)

Well, I think many right wingers are timid and delicate. They fear that
wearing a mask may decrease their blood oxygen content by a percent, and
they quiver in fear.

More honestly, right wingers jump on even the least plausible
justification for their political posturing.

A very good friend of mine works as a civilian at a naval base.
Supposedly the commander said certain recreation facilities will not be
allowed to open until 80% of sailors are vaccinated. But many are still
refusing.

My guy said it's nuts. He says it's normal for them to be subjected to
mandatory vaccination for other maladies before shipping out, and
there's never any objection.
....
But like every other aspect of COVID, right wing politics trumps both
science and reasonable past practice.

I had been in the Service for more then ten years when I was sent to
Vietnam and had, of course, had shots every year for my whole time in
the service. But as preparation to my sojourn in South East Asia I got
shots on both arms and one "big one" in the butt. After I got my shirt
on and my pants pulled up the ,Medic says, "you aren't going anywhere
for the next few days are you?" And I say "Hows come?". And he says
well, after you get the plague shot (the big one in the arse) we like
you to stay around for a few days", and I say, "you mean some people
get the plague from the shot?", and he don't say nothing.

A little more seriously, I don't know about now but when I was in the
Air Force there was a regulation that you could not refuse any medical
or dental treatment that the doctor prescribed for your health.

Were you ever ordered to take any medical treatments that were not FDA
approved?

I have no idea whether any treatment that was administered to me was
approved by the FDA or not. However I had a guy working for me (in the
U.S.A.F.) who was ordered to have all his teeth pulled. When he argued
that "you can't pull my teeth" he was shown a U.S.A.F. regulation that
stated that failure to accept any medical procedure that was
prescribed by a doctor was punishable by court martial.

I would give pretty good odds that all of the medical treatment you were
ordered to receive had been approved by the FDA, or whatever the
relevant organization was at the time. I suspect that the reason
current US military personnel are merely asked to volunteer for a covid
shot is that it is an experimental treatment, and it would look bad if
it later turned out to have undue side effects.

As I said, I have no idea but back in the early 1950's we used to get
an annual "flu shot" and I remember one year it made so many people
sick that they had to cancel flying for several days as there was no
one available to work on the flight line. Memory is often fallible but
I don't remember having a flu shot after that episode.

It does seem that all three covid shots are associated with some
elevated risk of cerebral blood clots. This does not mean that those at
a high risk of serious illness should avoid the shots, but almost all
those in the military are at an age where they are not at such risk, and
avoiding the vaccine just might be a rational choice.

Plus, didn't the Air Force teach you to think twice when asked to
volunteer for *anything*?

Nope, the rule of thumb was "never volunteer". If they want you they
will come and get you :-)

There you go, why would you expect any different from this generation?
I think you missed the target. My point was that when I was in the
Service shots were not optional.

Yes John, but they only gave us shots for diseases that would disable us, not make us feel crappy. Polio and Plaque and such were something that could stop an army. They couldn't care less if you had a runny nose.

Well yes, mostly :-)
The plague shot I got before going to 'nam was supposed to have a
booster shot after 6 months or so but the A.F. cancelled the whole
program before I got the booster shot as they determined that either
the shots didn't do any good, or maybe there was no plague in Vietnam.
and I remember one "flu shot" that caused so many to "get sick" that
the cancelled flying for a day or so as there weren't enough guys to
man the flight line.

But perhaps that taught somebody something as it was the last "flu
shot" I can remember getting.

--
Cheers,

John B.

On Sat, 24 Apr 2021 18:26:35 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
wrote:

On Friday, April 23, 2021 at 7:38:47 PM UTC-7, John B. wrote:
On Fri, 23 Apr 2021 16:05:19 -0400, Radey Shouman
wrote:

Rolf Mantel writes:

Am 21.04.2021 um 22:44 schrieb Radey Shouman:

Essentially you're telling me that I really should wear a
St. Christopher medal, because it's easier on the pocket than a rabbit's
foot, less likely to smell bad, and won't offend vegans, while
completely begging the question of how either one does any good at all.

Funnily enough, this St Christopher's medal (or something else) has
all but stalled the flu season world-wide; there is no "flu season"
2020/21 to speak of in Europe or the USA.
https://www.today.com/health/flu-season-2020-2021-flu-activity-historic-lows-mask-wearing-t207131

It's not clear that there would have been without it. One respiratory
virus tends to win every year, and largely replace the others. For
example, one flu strain tends to be dominant.

But I take your point that precautions against covid might well have
protected many people against flu. I'm not saying we should not take
any precautions, just that the costs have to be balanced against the
benefits. For example, if a complete lockdown every winter were shown
conclusively to prevent all flu, I would still be against it.
Incidentally I did ask my cardiologist whether the masks had any
effect on the annual cold/flu here and he said that there had been
"almost no respiratory illnesses" since masks had become almost
universally worn here.

John, is a respiratory disease and it kills 80% of the older people that die each year. Respiratory diseases as well as Circulatory diseases have been greatly reduced this year (2021) not because masks do anything but because people out of fear began taking care of themselves - walking, riding bikes, jogging etc. Many obese people have been going on diets and losing excess weight.

I warned you that you have to be very careful of doctors because they are as easily propagandized as you are. A MD doesn't give you immunity to being falsely convinced. I think I told you of my Neurologist, who started riding bicycles because of me. He is not putting in 4,000 miles a year but all on the flats. But exercise is exercise. But he too despite being in the middle of a University that contains people that are proving Fauci completely wrong still follows those orders or masks and social distancing and washing his hands until the skin falls off.

I think you are missing the boat, or perhaps I wasn't informative
enough, as when I asked my cardiologist about whether wearing masks
did much good, or not he replied (as well as I can remember) something
like "we haven't seen any respiratory disease this year" or words to
that effect, at least, again from memory, I didn't think he was saying
that there had been no respiratory disease in Thailand, but rather
that they hadn't seen any at that hospital.

As for pneumonia, I don't believe that it is particularly common here.
At least I did a quick search for "Major cause of death in Thailand:
and apparently the most common causes of death a

Among males are stroke (9.4%); transport accidents (8.1%); HIV/AIDS
(7.9%); ischemic heart diseases (6.4%),
Amount females , the leading causes are stroke (11.3%); diabetes (8%);
ischemic heart disease (7.5%); HIV/AIDS (5.7%); and renal diseases
(4%).
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Saturday, April 24, 2021 at 7:24:43 PM UTC-7, John B. wrote:
On Sat, 24 Apr 2021 18:26:35 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
wrote:

On Friday, April 23, 2021 at 7:38:47 PM UTC-7, John B. wrote:
On Fri, 23 Apr 2021 16:05:19 -0400, Radey Shouman
wrote:

Rolf Mantel writes:

Am 21.04.2021 um 22:44 schrieb Radey Shouman:

Essentially you're telling me that I really should wear a
St. Christopher medal, because it's easier on the pocket than a rabbit's
foot, less likely to smell bad, and won't offend vegans, while
completely begging the question of how either one does any good at all.

Funnily enough, this St Christopher's medal (or something else) has
all but stalled the flu season world-wide; there is no "flu season"
2020/21 to speak of in Europe or the USA.
https://www.today.com/health/flu-season-2020-2021-flu-activity-historic-lows-mask-wearing-t207131

It's not clear that there would have been without it. One respiratory
virus tends to win every year, and largely replace the others. For
example, one flu strain tends to be dominant.

But I take your point that precautions against covid might well have
protected many people against flu. I'm not saying we should not take
any precautions, just that the costs have to be balanced against the
benefits. For example, if a complete lockdown every winter were shown
conclusively to prevent all flu, I would still be against it.
Incidentally I did ask my cardiologist whether the masks had any
effect on the annual cold/flu here and he said that there had been
"almost no respiratory illnesses" since masks had become almost
universally worn here.

John, is a respiratory disease and it kills 80% of the older people that die each year. Respiratory diseases as well as Circulatory diseases have been greatly reduced this year (2021) not because masks do anything but because people out of fear began taking care of themselves - walking, riding bikes, jogging etc. Many obese people have been going on diets and losing excess weight.

I warned you that you have to be very careful of doctors because they are as easily propagandized as you are. A MD doesn't give you immunity to being falsely convinced. I think I told you of my Neurologist, who started riding bicycles because of me. He is not putting in 4,000 miles a year but all on the flats. But exercise is exercise. But he too despite being in the middle of a University that contains people that are proving Fauci completely wrong still follows those orders or masks and social distancing and washing his hands until the skin falls off.
I think you are missing the boat, or perhaps I wasn't informative
enough, as when I asked my cardiologist about whether wearing masks
did much good, or not he replied (as well as I can remember) something
like "we haven't seen any respiratory disease this year" or words to
that effect, at least, again from memory, I didn't think he was saying
that there had been no respiratory disease in Thailand, but rather
that they hadn't seen any at that hospital.

As for pneumonia, I don't believe that it is particularly common here.
At least I did a quick search for "Major cause of death in Thailand:
and apparently the most common causes of death a

Among males are stroke (9.4%); transport accidents (8.1%); HIV/AIDS
(7.9%); ischemic heart diseases (6.4%),
Amount females , the leading causes are stroke (11.3%); diabetes (8%);
ischemic heart disease (7.5%); HIV/AIDS (5.7%); and renal diseases
(4%).
I cannot understand where you're getting your numbers, here is a CDC chart that effectively shows that pneumonia kills most people over 50. It also has that Red line at the end that shows Covid-19 shooting through the ceiling.. But you will also notice that although the numbers are shooting up supposedly, there is no increase in total deaths. This is why I say that covid is a hoax and has been. https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019...nchs-data.html

On 4/23/2021 9:33 PM, John B. wrote:
On Fri, 23 Apr 2021 16:01:23 -0400, Radey Shouman
wrote:

John B. writes:

On Wed, 21 Apr 2021 23:16:37 -0400, Radey Shouman
wrote:

John B. writes:

On Wed, 21 Apr 2021 09:52:32 -0400, Radey Shouman
wrote:

John B. writes:

On Tue, 20 Apr 2021 13:28:23 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 4/19/2021 11:18 PM, John B. wrote:

On a personal basis I really can't see what the furor is about. Over
here you are required to wear a mask in a public place - store,
office, etc. and everybody just does it. No leaping up and down,
waving of arms and shouting, "I don't wanna do that". In fact we have
been having some Student protests about the government and even those
protesting are wear masks :-)

Well, I think many right wingers are timid and delicate. They fear that
wearing a mask may decrease their blood oxygen content by a percent, and
they quiver in fear.

More honestly, right wingers jump on even the least plausible
justification for their political posturing.

A very good friend of mine works as a civilian at a naval base.
Supposedly the commander said certain recreation facilities will not be
allowed to open until 80% of sailors are vaccinated. But many are still
refusing.

My guy said it's nuts. He says it's normal for them to be subjected to
mandatory vaccination for other maladies before shipping out, and
there's never any objection.
....
But like every other aspect of COVID, right wing politics trumps both
science and reasonable past practice.

I had been in the Service for more then ten years when I was sent to
Vietnam and had, of course, had shots every year for my whole time in
the service. But as preparation to my sojourn in South East Asia I got
shots on both arms and one "big one" in the butt. After I got my shirt
on and my pants pulled up the ,Medic says, "you aren't going anywhere
for the next few days are you?" And I say "Hows come?". And he says
well, after you get the plague shot (the big one in the arse) we like
you to stay around for a few days", and I say, "you mean some people
get the plague from the shot?", and he don't say nothing.

A little more seriously, I don't know about now but when I was in the
Air Force there was a regulation that you could not refuse any medical
or dental treatment that the doctor prescribed for your health.

Were you ever ordered to take any medical treatments that were not FDA
approved?

I have no idea whether any treatment that was administered to me was
approved by the FDA or not. However I had a guy working for me (in the
U.S.A.F.) who was ordered to have all his teeth pulled. When he argued
that "you can't pull my teeth" he was shown a U.S.A.F. regulation that
stated that failure to accept any medical procedure that was
prescribed by a doctor was punishable by court martial.

I would give pretty good odds that all of the medical treatment you were
ordered to receive had been approved by the FDA, or whatever the
relevant organization was at the time. I suspect that the reason
current US military personnel are merely asked to volunteer for a covid
shot is that it is an experimental treatment, and it would look bad if
it later turned out to have undue side effects.

As I said, I have no idea but back in the early 1950's we used to get
an annual "flu shot" and I remember one year it made so many people
sick that they had to cancel flying for several days as there was no
one available to work on the flight line. Memory is often fallible but
I don't remember having a flu shot after that episode.

It does seem that all three covid shots are associated with some
elevated risk of cerebral blood clots. This does not mean that those at
a high risk of serious illness should avoid the shots, but almost all
those in the military are at an age where they are not at such risk, and
avoiding the vaccine just might be a rational choice.

Plus, didn't the Air Force teach you to think twice when asked to
volunteer for *anything*?

Nope, the rule of thumb was "never volunteer". If they want you they
will come and get you :-)

There you go, why would you expect any different from this generation?

I think you missed the target. My point was that when I was in the
Service shots were not optional.


One ought to hesitate when ascribing motive to any Pentagon
rule or regulation, but in this unique case the china virus
vaccine is voluntary. Why? Who knows? But it is.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

jbeattie writes:

On Thursday, April 22, 2021 at 8:21:49 AM UTC-7, Radey Shouman wrote:
" writes:
On Wednesday, April 21, 2021 at 3:44:48 PM UTC-5, Radey Shouman wrote:

The decisions we're seeing governments make in the name of public health
go so far beyond what would have been considered reasonable two years
ago, and are so far divorced from any kind of rational cost vs benefit
analysis that I am gobsmacked every time I read the news.

Are you saying the current government health mandates are
unreasonable? Limiting attendance, closing some activities, limiting
travel, and others.

Yes. Arbitrarily denying people the right to work or operate their
businesses, closing schools, subjecting populations to the equivalent of
house arrest (not in the US as far as I know, but you can now be
arrested in Ontario for being on the street without sufficient reason).

https://www.cdc.gov/immigrantrefugee...ation-faq.html
What vaccines are required for U.S. immigration?
At this time,* vaccines for these diseases are currently required
for U.S. immigration:

Mumps
Measles
Rubella
Polio
Tetanus and diphtheria
Pertussis
Haemophilus influenzae type B (Hib)
Hepatitis A
Hepatitis B
Rotavirus
Meningococcal disease
Varicella
Pneumococcal disease
Seasonal influenza

So is it OK to require the danged furners to get vaccinated to get
into the land of milk and honey? But its unreasonable to require
those already here? Above is a federal law. Probably been on the
books for decades and decades.

https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/imz-man...aws/index.html
State Vaccination Requirements
State laws establish vaccination requirements for school
children. These laws often apply not only to children attending public
schools but also to those attending private schools and day care
facilities. States may also require immunization of healthcare workers
and of patients/residents of healthcare facilities.

So it is OK for most, all the states, to make school children and
healthcare workers get vaccinated but current health rules are
unreasonable?

Maybe I am just not following you too well. We currently have federal
and state health laws for diseases and many other things. And have
had these for decades and decades. And we have state laws regulating
population, attendance. Such as certain buildings cannot safely
accommodate too many people. And vehicles like buses cannot carry too
many people. But you are saying all these laws are illegal and the
population should rise up and overthrow the oppressors?

We have never had a law that required vaccination for anyone just
because of US residence. We have never had the current sort of opaque,
unaccountable administrative rulemaking over, for example, how many
people you can have in your own house for dinner. Are you really saying
that covid regulations are not a major increment in government power?
Mr. Beattie will perhaps take the time to explain to us hoi polloi why
it's all legal, but it certainly has not been customary up to very
recently.

What COVID regulations? Most of the COVID-related mandates are by
executive order of one sort or another. Various state agencies have
adopted temporary rules, but AFAIK, there has been very little
permanent rule-making, which requires notice, comment, etc.

I just followed the lead of my state government, which has a website
titled "covid regulations and guidance". I didn't mean to imply that
the rules were permanent.

Unilateral executive action is authorized by emergency power statutes.
I haven't really looked at the Oregon statute or how emergency powers
are or can be exercised by lesser units like state agencies and
municipalities, but there is no question that they are.
Municipalities are a lot more nimble and can pass ordinances in a
short period of time with significant consequences as any Portland
multi-family owner knows.

Emergency power statutes exist in every state. Governors have been
declaring emergencies, imposing curfews, restricting travel, imposing
mandatory evacuations, etc., etc. since we had states. COVID is
different because we can't see the disaster, like the destroyed
trailer parks or flooded coastal communities. COVID is uncommon, but
exercising emergency powers is common.

I am not arguing that emergency covid rules were put in place without
proper legal authority, just that a lot of them have not turned out to
be good ideas. As with many bad ideas in governance, when they don't
work the first implulse is to double down.

Pandemania is an international phonomenon, and many places with legal
systems not much like the US seem to have found legal ways to put
emergency rules in place.

I am in favor of regulations with a clearly articulated rational basis,
and transparent rules that limit their scope of application. When the
call was "14 days to flatten the curve", I was in favor, it made sense
to me. But after 14 days, and 14 days, and another 14 days, we have a
pandemic raj that makes rules about every aspect of everyday life
without public oversight, and without feeling the need to explain their
actions. California, for example, has repeatedly denied FOIA requests
for the data that underlie their pandemic regulations. Michigan and
Oregon are attempting to make mask mandates permanent.

About Oregon -- not really, although the conservative media loves that
narrative. OrOSHA is up against a statute that time-limits temporary
rules and prohibits their extension. If anything is to remain in
effect for more than 180 days (IIRC) has to be passed as a permanent
rule with notice, comment, etc. So, OrOSHA is doing the rational
thing -- passing permanent rules that would sunset. If people don't
like them, they can object during the notice/comment period -- and
they can tie them up in court. There are other problems with the rule
that relate to the scope of OrOSHA's statutory authority.

Would that other states had similar requirements.

All regulations must have a "rational basis" and be in accordance with
the agency's organic statute. That's a fundamental requirement of
substantive due process. "Rational basis" is an easy standard to
satisfy.

My bad for abusing a legal term of art. I don't doubt that much worse
rules than what we have would satisfy any likely legal standard. What I
would like is more transparency in the basis for government decisions,
but I doubt there is any wordsmithing that could make that happen, else
all those FOI acts would have already given it to us.

When I look at the actual curves for hospital admissions, deaths, or
covid cases I just don't see where, for example, the legal restrictions
made in South Dakota cause their curves to bend in way that that those
of North Dakota didn't -- there just isn't much evidence that legal
restrictions have done any good, and it should be obvious that they have
had heavy costs, not just in money but also in lives.

And thus the governors of the various states have dealt with the
pandemic differently. There is no federal mask mandate -- as Biden
has repeated over and over. In Oregon, the restrictions apply
differently to each county depending on its COVID numbers. There
never has been an outdoor mask mandate, at least when social
distancing is possible.

A lot of the mandates are blunt tools and should be better tailored.
You hope that advisory staff is skilled enough to do that. If you
don't like the ideology of your executive branch, vote them out or
move -- because when COVID 2.0 comes, you know what you're going to
get.

I believe that voluntary behavior changes have made a significant
difference in the pandemic progress. These are done in self interest,
they need not be mandated with criminal penalties. Those that are
unlikely to voluntarily change their behavior due to risk are also
unlikely to change their behavior due to regulation. Many of our fine
leaders are among this group.

Some times laws or regulations reinforce voluntary behavior, which is
the reasoning behind many of the mandates. The cops are not busting
people for face mask violations, but merchants and others who have to
satisfy all their customers can demand compliance with the laws. The
laws are often good cover.

I agree that legal mandates with penalties do change behavior, even
among the majority that are not likely to risk having them applied. As
it happened I believe that where the rules were helpful penalties were
mostly superfluous, and where they weren't superfluous the rules were
mostly harmful.