Autofaq now on faster server

"Just zis Guy, you know?" writes:

Because I'm not putting anybody down, I'm taking the **** out of those
bikes which manage to be, without looking any different from the bike
next door, vastly heavier.

I drive a Volvo. I have to get used to people taking the **** out of
Volvo drivers.

Well, this just confirms to me that you really don't have a clue what
I'm talking about. A Volvo is a generally expensive car. Taking the ****
out of a Volvo owner isn't nearly the same thing as putting them down.

Ditto recumbents,

A very expensive option.

in fact I was pelted with stones by some chavs

Such a delightful term, 'chav'. A wonderful addition to the vocabulary
of class warfare.

the other day. I'm guessing you don't ride one of the Sterling House
horrors that the FAQ is mainly warning people against, but if you did
I'd suggest you, too, would need to learn to live with a certain
amount of ribbing.

Working out the difference between buying a 15k Volvo and a 60 quid bike
is left as an excersise in class consciousness.

--
Keith Willoughby http://flat222.org/keith/
"By the way, it's the Afghan national army that
went into Najaf and did the work there."
- George W. Bush

On Sun, 20 Mar 2005 14:55:46 +0000, Jon Senior
jon_AT_restlesslemon_DOT_co_DOT_uk wrote:

Martin Wilson wrote:
Thats your opinion but there is no evidence to support it.

See below

Again where is the evidence, I've never seen any broken frames in a
bike shop and it probably wouldn't be in their interest to display
them whatever the frame material. The internet would be a logical
place to search for evidence and the evidence here seems to indicate
aluminium is more likely to fail and thats in a world where hi-ten
massively outsells aluminium bikes.

If you're ever in Edinburgh, drop in and visit the Bike Station in
Waverly station. You'll find a room of scrap in which Hi-Ten steel
frames are over-representative. You'll also find boxes and boxes of
Tourney (And SIS - from when Shimano couldn't bring themselves to name
them) rear derailleurs. These bikes are a over-represented as a
proportion of the bikes donated. We re-fit and fettle them where
possible, often scrapping three or more bikes to make one useful one.


So lets get this straight. They have a large collection of high
tensile steel frames that have broken in use either the welds or
tubeing. What is their motivation to keep these frames?

It doesn't surprise me about tourney gears. They are ok and workable
but the shimano models higher up in the range have a crisper and
faster gear change. While tourney gears are widely used on sub £100
bikes they also feature on higher end models upto £400. While I think
the tourney front derailleur is probably as good at changing as must
other shimano front derailleurs even if it isn't as robust the rear
tourney definitely is not brilliant. Some of the very cheapest chinese
imported bikes have a similar looking rear derailleur to the shimano
tourney with the name 'china gearing'. If anything these seem to
perform better than the tourney and have a better spring.

And you're right that a bike shop wouldn't display broken frames... but
ask the techs and they'll show you the pile!

It probably does represent the view of the group generally so its
probably on the button as the urc faq but whether its useful to a
wider cycling audience who may own or be considering a low cost high
tensile bike I don't know.

Then add your voice. If you feel that it's wrong, edit it to better
reflect your views. If you can't actually be bothered to invest the
time, why waste it arguing the toss here.

Jon

I think I've already answered that elsewhere.

On Sun, 20 Mar 2005 17:37:27 +0000, Keith Willoughby
wrote in message
:

I'm not putting anybody down, I'm taking the **** out of those
bikes which manage to be, without looking any different from the bike
next door, vastly heavier.
I drive a Volvo. I have to get used to people taking the **** out of
Volvo drivers.

Well, this just confirms to me that you really don't have a clue what
I'm talking about. A Volvo is a generally expensive car. Taking the ****
out of a Volvo owner isn't nearly the same thing as putting them down.

Obviously you haven't heard the sorts of comments made about Volvo
drivers. I suggest you check the Ogri cartoon some time.

Ditto recumbents,

A very expensive option.

And where did I say otherwise?

in fact I was pelted with stones by some chavs

Such a delightful term, 'chav'. A wonderful addition to the vocabulary
of class warfare.

You want salt and vinegar with those chips?

The only class warfare I've ever been involved in, I was on the
receiving end. I was attacked more than once for going to the "posh"
school - the irony was that I was on a direct grant place, my parents
were, if not quite as poor as church mice, certainly not a lot better
off. My dad was a teacher and my mum stayed home.

I'm guessing you don't ride one of the Sterling House
horrors that the FAQ is mainly warning people against, but if you did
I'd suggest you, too, would need to learn to live with a certain
amount of ribbing.

Working out the difference between buying a 15k Volvo and a 60 quid bike
is left as an excersise in class consciousness.

If you study hard and work hard one day you, too, might be able to
afford a six-year-old car with 100,000 miles on the clock...

I think you have fallen victim to exactly the kind of stereotyping you
are falsely accusing me of, and you really haven't a clue how wide of
the mark that is. I went to a thousand-year-old public school where
it was common for people to be given a new car for their 17th
birthday, but we drove a Mini van with the bonnet tied down with
string. The process of learning to drive was hampered by things like
the brakes failing at the third junction I came to. I bought my first
Dawes Galaxy with a compensation payout from some woman who ran me off
the road, my previous bike was a hand-me-down from my grandfather and
when I had the crash I was riding my sister's Raleigh Shopper because
my bike was broken and I couldn't afford the bus fare to the other
side of the city to see my girlfriend. My first car was given to me
as a non-runner and I had to rebuild it from the ground up, scrounging
parts, cycling seventy miles to get a gearbox layshaft for a cheap
price, a full day at work and then six hours in a freezing workshop.
I lived through university on a grant and the money I could make in
the holidays doing furniture removals, and for at least half my
working life I worked 80+ hours per week to pay the mortgage and feed
the kids. And do you know something? I have no idea what it's like
to be really poor. And I'm guessing you might not either, although I
could be wrong. We always had enough for food (although it got a bit
tight at times, the last week of the month was known not entirely
ironically as "famine week") and we always had clothes that more or
less fitted and shoes which did fit.

My sister in Wales lives on the poverty line and I've given her
precisely the same advice I give people he a decent second-hand
bike is almost without exception better value than a cheap new one.
The same applies, in my view, to cars. It's not about affluence or
poverty, it's about getting best value for whatever money you are
going to spend.


Guy
--
http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk

"To every complex problem there is a solution which is
simple, neat and wrong" - HL Mencken

On Sun, 20 Mar 2005 14:43:59 +0000, Jon Senior
jon_AT_restlesslemon_DOT_co_DOT_uk wrote:

Martin Wilson wrote:

snip

I think that you're in danger on confusing a discussion of actual
materials with a discussion of warning signs.

There is more to a bike than what material is used to make the frame,
and the fact is that the lower quality bikes (Build quality inc frame
alignment, and componentry) are often synonymous with the use of
"Hi-Ten" steel. This means that a frame with "Hi-Ten" emblazoned on it,
often coupled with unnecessary oversize tubes and carbon effect
stickers, is a warning sign that you are not looking at a good bike.


I've never seen a cheap bike with terrible alignment or substandard
components. You probably see resin covered steel V brakes as
substandard but they have worked well for me. Plastic brake levers
have also been ok. I'm not saying I wouldn't prefer both to be made
from finely crafted alloys etc but they work. Where are all the posts
from people who are buying such bikes and finding these components
unsatisfactory? I don't see them anywhere. Can you name exact models
that suffer these problems, point them out who sells them etc. There
is nothing wrong with an oversize tube if your manufacturing a
stronger frame. I like the fact the frame has an over the top main
tube its re-assuring. Your basically saying my cheap ebay bike is not
a good bike. Maybe if I got on your bike and found that the wheels
buckled almost instantly under my weight and created a life
threatening situation for me that your bike is actually complete
rubbish as its too weak for heavier riders.


And WRT to your experience, you may have had a lot of luck with your
"Hi-Ten" bike, and it may be the case that a stronger bike is better for
you, but in the general case, those shopping for a bike do not need that
level of over-building and those in the specific case (such as yourself)
may already be aware of this.


Have I been lucky? I don't think so because if I have there would be a
load of internet postings of people moaning about similar bikes
failing. Obesity is a big problem in this country and many people who
have allowed themselves to be obese are turning to cycling to aid
weight loss and improved fitness. I'm not sure exactly what people are
buying cycle nowadays but overweight people surely make a good
percentage of them.


Buying a bike from a decent LBS eliminates the concern as they are more
likely to select a bike which is appropriate to you in the first place
which means you can rely on professional advice rather than the colour
of the frame as the deciding factor!


This idea that LBS's always try to sell you what you actually
need/whats best for you is very naive. Its like saying supermarkets
only sell food that is good for you. Most LBS's are motivated by
profit and if they are not they are incompetent. If they could sell an
obese 25 stone man a super light weight titanium racing bike they
would if it wasn't for the fact he would be returning it. Maybe where
you are LBS's are different but I don't see the level of customer
service you speak of in any cycle shops local to me. I remember such
service in the past but I don't see it locally nowadays. I'm not
saying it doesn't exist but I wonder how many people have LBSs like
that.

And if you still feel that the FAQ is way-off the mark, then edit it. A
rant here wont change anything, and is unlikely to result in its
removal. If you aren't prepared to put your point forward in the
appropriate place, then I'm surprised your prepared to waste the effort
revisiting it here. Now chill out! ;-)

Jon

I didn't realise I'd said anything offensive to you to make you think
I'm not chilled out.

"Just zis Guy, you know?" wrote in message
...

... My first car was given to me
as a non-runner and I had to rebuild it from the ground up, scrounging
parts, cycling seventy miles to get a gearbox layshaft for a cheap
price, a full day at work and then six hours in a freezing workshop.
etc

That's nothing... (never had you pegged as a yorkshireman though :-))

cheers,
clive

"Martin Wilson" wrote in message
...

I've never seen a cheap bike with terrible alignment or substandard
components.

You've described the tourney rear mech (common on cheap bikes) as
substandard...

clive

On 20/3/05 7:28 pm, in article ,
"Martin Wilson" wrote:

I've never seen a cheap bike with terrible alignment or substandard
components.

I have. It was impossible to set it up to work appropriately well.

...d

"Just zis Guy, you know?" writes:

I think you have fallen victim to exactly the kind of stereotyping you
are falsely accusing me of,

I'm not accusing you of stereotyping. I'm saying you come across as
sneering.

and you really haven't a clue how wide of the mark that is.
[snip]

I really don't care about your personal situation. All I know is how
your words come across to me. If you're not interested, then that's the
end of it.

My sister in Wales lives on the poverty line and I've given her
precisely the same advice I give people he a decent second-hand
bike is almost without exception better value than a cheap new one.

And if she had a supermarket bike, you'd tell her it was crappy, made of
cheese and depleted uranium, and that she was, by extension, stupid for
buying it?

The same applies, in my view, to cars. It's not about affluence or
poverty, it's about getting best value for whatever money you are
going to spend.

And making jokes about the people with crap ones, of course.

--
Keith Willoughby http://flat222.org/keith/
"New songs and true songs and songs to bring you"

And making jokes about the people with crap ones, of course.

No no. He made jokes about the bikes, not the people. DKUAT..er, Front.

On Sun, 20 Mar 2005 19:53:00 -0000, "Clive George"
wrote in message
:

That's nothing...

I did permit myself a small wager that the four Yorkshiremen would be
invoked :-)


Guy
--
http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk

"To every complex problem there is a solution which is
simple, neat and wrong" - HL Mencken