At least 5 dead , 9 injured after pickup truck hits bicyclists from BEHIND

On 2016-06-10 16:13, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Friday, June 10, 2016 at 6:09:03 PM UTC-4, Joerg wrote:
On 2016-06-10 14:46, Duane wrote:
Joerg wrote:
On 2016-06-10 13:00, Duane wrote:
On 10/06/2016 3:43 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2016-06-10 12:13, Sir Ridesalot wrote:


[...]

The state Senator has a very interesting comment.

http://wincountry.com/news/articles/...-of-kalamazoo/





"UPDATE - 6/8 at 10:05 a.m.: State Sen. Margaret O' Brien,
R-Portage, has released a statement:

"Kalamazoo County has again experienced a senseless
tragedy. Nine people were randomly attacked while
enjoying a bicycle ride. No explanation can bring back
the lives of the five people killed."


But not much news in terms of new facts or investigation
results. Whether it was a deliberate attack is speculation
at this point. It's possible though. There are people who
hate cyclists and the threshold towards acting out on that
hate can drop with alcohol and drugs.


Well the choice of words "randomly attacked" sort of implies
intent, no?


And on exactly what proof did she based that?


I don't know. On what proof do you base your DRL comment having
any relevance?


I didn't, because it it just a comment, no more. All I was saying
is that it does make sense to investigate whether or not the last
rider had a flashing rear light. Everyone knows that this greatly
increases the visibility of a cyclist.

"Random attack" is an accusation. It might be true and what this
driver did was despicable but still, without proof I would never
make an accusation like that.

-- Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

Absolutely friggin incredible! NINE bicyclists riding in a group on a
sunny day on a straight section of road with good sight lines get
struck from BEHIND by a pickup truck that had a least three 911 calls
made about it being driven in a very erratic manner within an hour of
it striking all nine bicyclist and killing five of them, seriously
injuring two of them and injuring the other two and it's the
bicyclists' fault decause they didn't have a red blinking tail light?


I never said that. I said it can help, even with erratic drivers.



Plus, the driver tried to get away on foot but was apprehended. Plus
the truck was incapable of moving under its own power after the crash
just goesto show how severe the impacts were. Iconceivable that you
believethat in this case DLRs or blinking lights would have prevented
this.

The driver isd facing FIVE charges of MURDER and some lesser charges
but it's the bicyclists who are at fault according to you.
Astounding!


What nonsense. I never said that.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

On 2016-06-10 16:15, W. Wesley Groleau wrote:
On 06-10-2016 21:34, Joerg wrote:
The Gazelle steel frame on my early 80's road bike also doesn't trip
some loops. I've even had cases where laying it didn't trigger. Which is
a major inconvenience when that is for a left turn at a traffic light.
The designers of such loop circuits don't always seem to be the
brightest bulbs in the chandelier.

I've found that riding at the edge of the loop has a better chance than
riding through the middle.


Yes, sometimes that helps. Same when laying the bike down where I try to
have the seat tube and the top tube along the buried wires. Problem is,
sometimes you can't see the buried wires because they poured new
blacktop all over the road. At one such place I lay the bike but keep it
a few degrees off the pavement, then swing it back and forth like a
scythe until it triggers.

What I find absolutely hazardous is when you can leave gated communities
only via car because of such inadequately designed loops. What if a
panic set in? What if a propane tank exploded and people must flee on foot?

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

On Friday, June 10, 2016 at 3:05:37 PM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2016-06-10 14:40, jbeattie wrote:
On Friday, June 10, 2016 at 12:34:05 PM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2016-06-10 11:54, jbeattie wrote:
On Friday, June 10, 2016 at 10:43:00 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2016-06-10 10:40, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Friday, June 10, 2016 at 1:17:17 PM UTC-4, Joerg wrote:
On 2016-06-10 10:04, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 6/10/2016 12:43 PM, Joerg wrote:
I found that the number of times I got into critical
situations because of inattentive (or possibly soused)
drivers has greatly dropped off since I have bright
lighting. One of the reasons is simple. If a driver,
especially a drunk one, sees red flashing lights in
the distance one of the first reactions will likely be
"Oh no, cops!" which in many cases will make them slow
down.

Sounds like you must have gotten into many "critical
situations" before. Otherwise you couldn't know they had
dropped off greatly.


I hear a car coming from the rear and it is very easy to
discern whether the braking process is a hard one or a
normal one. Now they are almost all normal, typically where
people just let go of the accelerator pedal.


To me, that's very odd. I can't remember the last time I
got in a "critical situation" on my bike. Perhaps that
has something to do with riding style?


No, with the roads out here and I am not the only one. I've
met people who even invested in Dinotte rear lights to the
tune of more than $100 and reported similar results.

-- Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

What if the car/truck is coming up behind you and NOT
braking?


You typically die or get hurt badly. Hence my preference for
segregated bike paths.

Or the truck passes. Do you not get passed by trucks?


Sure they do. But sometimes they can't and then I prefer my lights
to alert them in a timely manner that I am in the lane.


The change of that happening while riding on roads is reduced
with bright lighting. Hence I ride with daytime lights.
Always.

O.K. Just a digression, but I was riding to work today on a
busy road with lots of trucks, buses and cars -- I often post the
video of SW Barbur Boulevard with those narrow bridges that put
cyclists in the lane. PDOT installed flashers at the bridges
with induction loop switches that, for some reason, my plastic
Roubaix (which I rode today) will not trip.
http://bikeportland.org/2014/03/07/o...xt-week-102600



I didn't trip the flashers this morning, and you know what, I was
kind of scared. I was going over this narrow bridge with big
trucks and cars and buses without any rear flasher and without
the benefit of the big, new flashers. I could die! And then I
thought, hey, I've been riding on this road for 32 years without
giant flashers. I'm wearing a neon yellow/green rain jersey. I'm
riding conspicuously. 20 years ago, I didn't have any bike
facilities and rode a fog line all the way to downtown.


That is probably what some of the Kalamazoo riders thought as
well. Until Tuesday :-(

It's the same argument that people used when they were ranting
against having to wear safety belts in their cars. After all,
grandpa didn't even have belts in his DeSoto and he lived to a ripe
old age.

Hardly. We're not talking about easily implemented safety
improvements like seat-belts. You're suggesting a separate, parallel
transportation system and that it is too scary and too unsafe to ride
without one. If we all lived our lives according to that paradigm, we
would quit riding.


That is a risk we all have to take and I do that weekly. There is no
bike path system between here and El Dorado Hills and Folsom. It starts
in Folsom and from there on west it is very good. So what people do is
truck their bikes to Folsom, unload and commute the rest of the way. If
I had to commute daily I'd probably do the same. For once or twice a
week I just clench my teeth and ride but only with the ship brightly lit.


I don't know of any country, planet or universe where there is an
entirely separate transportation system just for bicycles. Even in
the bike heaven of Amsterdam, a lot of the facilities are on the road
or within ten feet of the road and separated by curbs or medians and
other minor obstacles easily overcome by determined drunks.


I lived in the Netherlands for more than five years and racked up around
40000 miles on bicycles while there, some of those miles in the neighbor
countries Germany and Belgium. That might sound like a lot but not to
other people living there. The contrast between these countries could
not have been larger. All major roads wherever I ventured in the
Netherlands had nice bike paths. In Germany there was the occasional
bike path and in Belgium, almost nada.

Yeah, theoretically a car driver could spin out, slide across some turf
and onto the bike path. But that is rare. I cannot remember any
accidents like the one in this thread. I felt super safe there as a
cyclist. After moving to Germany, not anymore and so I became a weekend
and evening rider. After moving to the US I quit riding altogether for
15 years. Now that at least some bike infrastructure started to mature I
began riding again, a lot. This is all not just my opinion but also that
of the vast majority of cyclists I know. And I know quite a few.

The ten zillion cyclists around here seem to manage on traffic calmed streets and in bike lanes (sometimes super-wide bike lanes) https://www.flickr.com/photos/bikepo...8621?ytcheck=1 https://www.flickr.com/photos/bikeportland/26749146761/ That's every day traffic. Eeek . . . a truck! https://www.flickr.com/photos/bikeportland/4951771834/

My side of town is less facility intensive. http://tinyurl.com/jy3uzhb That's where the flasher didn't go off for me. http://tinyurl.com/hug7wvu http://tinyurl.com/hug7wvu Here's something scary for you, on my way to work, I look over my shoulder before hitting the first bridge, and this is what I see: http://tinyurl.com/j4hr87h It's hair raising, super scary and impossible to ride -- except that about a zillion people do it every day.

I also take little goat roads over the hills or a less strenuous route with a bike lane over lower, rolling hills. http://tinyurl.com/gugmzl8 That's a nice route, but the sinage requires you to ride on your head in places: http://tinyurl.com/zc5lhl5


-- Jay Beattie.

Per Joerg:
But it is always good on a bicycle to stick
out. That's what a bright blinking light does and that's why both my
bikes have that. Actually several each.

In a Philadelphia (PA - USA) newspaper article they quoted a New Jersey
State Highway Patrolman as referring to tail lights on a car parked on
the shoulder as "Drunk Magnets".
--
Pete Cresswell

Per Joerg:
"Random attack" is an accusation. It might be true and what this driver
did was despicable but still, without proof I would never make an
accusation like that.


"Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by
carelessness." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanlon%27s_razor
--
Pete Cresswell

On Fri, 10 Jun 2016 12:05:11 -0700 (PDT), Sir Ridesalot
wrote:

On Friday, June 10, 2016 at 2:42:59 PM UTC-4, Duane wrote:
On 10/06/2016 2:02 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2016-06-10 10:53, Duane wrote:
On 10/06/2016 1:12 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2016-06-10 10:02, Duane wrote:
On 10/06/2016 12:43 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2016-06-10 07:54, Duane wrote:
On 10/06/2016 10:28 AM, Joerg wrote:
On 2016-06-07 21:56, Sir Ridesalot wrote:



"KALAMAZOO COUNTY, Mich. (NEWSCHANNEL 3) - Newschannel 3 has
learned
that at least five people have been killed on North Westnedge, near
Markin Glen Park, just north of Kalamazoo, after a group of
bicyclists were struck from behind by a blue Chevy pickup truck.

It happened around 6:30 p.m. Tuesday evening.

All of those killed were bicyclists riding down the road when a
pickup truck came up behind them, and struck the group."

More here

http://wwmt.com/news/local/multiple-...illed-in-crash

Condolences to the victims' families and friends.


Very sad.

One question is whether we will ever hear the results of the
investigation. Such as lane positions, lighting of the riders,
visibility, level of intoxication of the driver, speed of the truck,
and
so on.

Without such follow-up it's hard to learn from these case. I have
even
seen people flat-out deny that it was a non-intersection lane case
in a
similar deadly crash here in Sacramento. No follow-up info as usual,
zero, but it all points to a cyclist having been in the left lane
(two
per direction) preparing to turn off somewhere when a drunk driver
in a
truck smashed into her and killed her.


Read the report. It was not an intersection and they were
apparently on
the shoulder.


Please quote where it said that.



It was stated in the original report posted here.


It was not. See link above. Please quote.

[...]


http://ktla.com/2016/06/07/at-least-...s-in-michigan/



Sorry, Andrew Muzi posted this at the same time. It's in this one.


Ok, thanks. If the county attorney said that he must know since he
likely has access to the police report.


And regardless, they were hit from behind on a straight road.


Sure. But there are questions. Did the probably intoxicated driver not
see them at all? Did he see them too late? Did the last rider have a
highly visible rear light? Or did the driver deliberately run into them?

Some of those questions could be answered at this time.


All of your questions make it sound like the victims could or should
have have prevented this. Even if you buy the red blinky in the daytime
thing, that's bull****. The driver is solely responsible for hitting
someone from behind.


What is there to learn here? Maybe if it was drunk driving and the
guy
had priors or maybe if the guy was psychotic and off his meds. But
from
the riders' points of view what is there to learn?


A lot. Just one example: I found that the number of times I got into
critical situations because of inattentive (or possibly soused)
drivers
has greatly dropped off since I have bright lighting. One of the
reasons
is simple. If a driver, especially a drunk one, sees red flashing
lights
in the distance one of the first reactions will likely be "Oh no,
cops!"
which in many cases will make them slow down.



Give me a ****ing break. At least 14 people in front of him on bikes,
and he would have seen them if only they had a light?


Quite possibly yes. On a straight stretch of road drivers often see only
the last rider or maybe the last 2-3. It is important to know these
things.

My bright lights are a reason why I am sometimes asked to ride last in a
group. Because that affords the whole group better safety.


Having you behind them? Maybe your jams are too loud when you are in
front of them. - sorry, could not resist.


Not sure what you mean with jams.


Music.

I think the State Senator nailed it when she said: "This page has a very interesting comment.

http://wincountry.com/news/articles/...-of-kalamazoo/

"UPDATE - 6/8 at 10:05 a.m.: State Sen. Margaret O' Brien, R-Portage, has released a statement:

"Kalamazoo County has again experienced a senseless tragedy. Nine people were randomly attacked while enjoying a bicycle ride. No explanation can bring back the lives of the five people killed."

Note that she's calling it a "random attack" not an accident or crash?

Cheers

I suggest that what a state senator says might be very different from
what the public attorney that has to try the case would say. After
all, election time is fast approaching.
--
cheers,

John B.

On Fri, 10 Jun 2016 22:17:15 -0000 (UTC), Duane
wrote:

Joerg wrote:
On 2016-06-10 14:46, Duane wrote:
Joerg wrote:
On 2016-06-10 13:00, Duane wrote:
On 10/06/2016 3:43 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2016-06-10 12:13, Sir Ridesalot wrote:


[...]

The state Senator has a very interesting comment.

http://wincountry.com/news/articles/...-of-kalamazoo/



"UPDATE - 6/8 at 10:05 a.m.: State Sen. Margaret O' Brien,
R-Portage, has released a statement:

"Kalamazoo County has again experienced a senseless tragedy. Nine
people were randomly attacked while enjoying a bicycle ride. No
explanation can bring back the lives of the five people killed."


But not much news in terms of new facts or investigation results.
Whether it was a deliberate attack is speculation at this point. It's
possible though. There are people who hate cyclists and the threshold
towards acting out on that hate can drop with alcohol and drugs.


Well the choice of words "randomly attacked" sort of implies intent, no?


And on exactly what proof did she based that?


I don't know. On what proof do you base your DRL comment having any
relevance?


I didn't, because it it just a comment, no more. All I was saying is
that it does make sense to investigate whether or not the last rider had
a flashing rear light. Everyone knows that this greatly increases the
visibility of a cyclist.


It makes no sense at all to attribute negligence to the victims here.

"Random attack" is an accusation. It might be true and what this driver
did was despicable but still, without proof I would never make an
accusation like that.


Chances are a state senator wouldn't either.

:-) Do you listen to what the political candidates say :-)
--
cheers,

John B.

On Fri, 10 Jun 2016 15:48:47 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

On 2016-06-10 15:39, Duane wrote:
Joerg wrote:
On 2016-06-10 15:17, Duane wrote:
Joerg wrote:
On 2016-06-10 14:46, Duane wrote:
Joerg wrote:
On 2016-06-10 13:00, Duane wrote:
On 10/06/2016 3:43 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2016-06-10 12:13, Sir Ridesalot wrote:


[...]

The state Senator has a very interesting comment.

http://wincountry.com/news/articles/...-of-kalamazoo/



"UPDATE - 6/8 at 10:05 a.m.: State Sen. Margaret O' Brien,
R-Portage, has released a statement:

"Kalamazoo County has again experienced a senseless tragedy. Nine
people were randomly attacked while enjoying a bicycle ride. No
explanation can bring back the lives of the five people killed."


But not much news in terms of new facts or investigation results.
Whether it was a deliberate attack is speculation at this point. It's
possible though. There are people who hate cyclists and the threshold
towards acting out on that hate can drop with alcohol and drugs.


Well the choice of words "randomly attacked" sort of implies intent, no?


And on exactly what proof did she based that?


I don't know. On what proof do you base your DRL comment having any
relevance?


I didn't, because it it just a comment, no more. All I was saying is
that it does make sense to investigate whether or not the last rider had
a flashing rear light. Everyone knows that this greatly increases the
visibility of a cyclist.


It makes no sense at all to attribute negligence to the victims here.


And where have I done that?


You're saying if they were using lights they would have greatly increased
their visibility. Don't you see the inference there?


No. I said there should be an investigation into all aspects of this.
Start of vehicle braking, driver intoxication, rider positions, and yes,
whether there were lights.

My guess that all the various details are being very stringently
investigated.

I can imagine what the results would be if an elected attorney whether
State, County or City were to fail in his prosecution of the miscreant
due to a lack of evidence. And, I imagine that he/she can too.


--
cheers,

John B.

On Fri, 10 Jun 2016 11:54:57 -0700 (PDT), jbeattie
wrote:

On Friday, June 10, 2016 at 10:43:00 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2016-06-10 10:40, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Friday, June 10, 2016 at 1:17:17 PM UTC-4, Joerg wrote:
On 2016-06-10 10:04, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 6/10/2016 12:43 PM, Joerg wrote:
I found that the number of times I got into
critical situations because of inattentive (or possibly soused) drivers
has greatly dropped off since I have bright lighting. One of the reasons
is simple. If a driver, especially a drunk one, sees red flashing lights
in the distance one of the first reactions will likely be "Oh no, cops!"
which in many cases will make them slow down.

Sounds like you must have gotten into many "critical situations" before.
Otherwise you couldn't know they had dropped off greatly.


I hear a car coming from the rear and it is very easy to discern whether
the braking process is a hard one or a normal one. Now they are almost
all normal, typically where people just let go of the accelerator pedal.


To me, that's very odd. I can't remember the last time I got in a
"critical situation" on my bike. Perhaps that has something to do with
riding style?


No, with the roads out here and I am not the only one. I've met people
who even invested in Dinotte rear lights to the tune of more than $100
and reported similar results.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

What if the car/truck is coming up behind you and NOT braking?


You typically die or get hurt badly. Hence my preference for segregated
bike paths.

Or the truck passes. Do you not get passed by trucks?

The change of that happening while riding on roads is reduced with
bright lighting. Hence I ride with daytime lights. Always.

O.K. Just a digression, but I was riding to work today on a busy road with lots of trucks, buses and cars -- I often post the video of SW Barbur Boulevard with those narrow bridges that put cyclists in the lane. PDOT installed flashers at the bridges with induction loop switches that, for some reason, my plastic Roubaix (which I rode today) will not trip. http://bikeportland.org/2014/03/07/o...xt-week-102600

I didn't trip the flashers this morning, and you know what, I was kind of scared. I was going over this narrow bridge with big trucks and cars and buses without any rear flasher and without the benefit of the big, new flashers. I could die! And then I thought, hey, I've been riding on this road for 32 years without giant flashers. I'm wearing a neon yellow/green rain jersey. I'm riding conspicuously. 20 years ago, I didn't have any bike facilities and rode a fog line all the way to downtown.

I like my bike facilities, and the flasher is a nice touch -- except the loop is too close to the bridge and it makes bicyclist jump out at the last minute. But its a nice idea, just poorly implemented. Points for being kind, PDOT. Demerits for being stupid for location and sensitivity. Everyone is not on an iron Mao bike.

Anyway, I lived. The bottom line is that crazy drunks can kill you on a sidewalk, on a separate bike facility . . . in your f****** bed. Google "car drives through [house, barn, store, etc., etc.]

-- Jay Beattie.

I doubt that the average motor vehicle wants to deliberately run into
bicycles and given half a chance will not. I have, by accident, gotten
into situations where if the car had proceeded without slowing or
stopping I would have been hit, and the car does slow, or even stop in
some instances.

On the other hand, Thailand has a terrifying traffic record and in the
majority of the fatal accidents one or both of the driver had "drink
taken" as the Irish so quaintly put it.

--
cheers,

John B.

On Fri, 10 Jun 2016 21:10:43 -0400, "(PeteCresswell)"
wrote:

Per Joerg:
"Random attack" is an accusation. It might be true and what this driver
did was despicable but still, without proof I would never make an
accusation like that.


"Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by
carelessness." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanlon%27s_razor

or "Never assume malice when stupidity will suffice"" from the same
source.
--
cheers,

John B.