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combination spanner: drop forged steel vs. chrome vanadium



 
 
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  #1  
Old July 23rd 16, 06:35 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Emanuel Berg
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Posts: 318
Default combination spanner: drop forged steel vs. chrome vanadium

Because the combination spanner seems to be an
integral part of the game I spent some time
examining my tools.

I have two almost complete sets despite never
having bought a set.

If we focus on the 10 mm one, both versions
have a width of 5 mm. One is 15 mm in length,
the other 12.3 mm. And the space that holds the
nut is equally 10 mm on both!

The difference in length makes for a somewhat
different angle.

In a shop size doesn't really matter but it
might be a factor for small toolboxes to bring
into the wild (or into thin air). On the flip
side, the short one should carry somewhat less
power as the lever is shorter!

The short one is made in Taiwan, the long in
China. So I suppose the short one is older
since nowadays everything seems to be built in
mainland China.

Now is where it gets interesting: the short one
is made of drop forged steel, and the long one:
chrome vanadium!

--
underground experts united .... http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573
Emacs Gnus Blogomatic ......... http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573/blogomatic
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  #2  
Old July 23rd 16, 08:33 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
John B.[_6_]
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Posts: 2,202
Default combination spanner: drop forged steel vs. chrome vanadium

On Sat, 23 Jul 2016 07:35:11 +0200, Emanuel Berg
wrote:

Because the combination spanner seems to be an
integral part of the game I spent some time
examining my tools.

I have two almost complete sets despite never
having bought a set.


I've got a friend who has a small business repairing outboard motors
at a large marina in Phuket, Thailand. And when you are always out and
about in the boat business you seem to collect things. He is also a
great fan of tool boards and has about half of one wall in his shop
covered by a gigantic "tool Board". The other day I asked him about
the 5 sets of combination wrenches - 2 in inch and 3 in metric sizes.
Jokingly I asked him if one set went with Mercury engines and one with
Honda's and maybe one for old Sea Gull motors. He says, "Nah, I just
grab whatever is the closest :-)


If we focus on the 10 mm one, both versions
have a width of 5 mm. One is 15 mm in length,
the other 12.3 mm. And the space that holds the
nut is equally 10 mm on both!

The difference in length makes for a somewhat
different angle.

In a shop size doesn't really matter but it
might be a factor for small toolboxes to bring
into the wild (or into thin air). On the flip
side, the short one should carry somewhat less
power as the lever is shorter!

The short one is made in Taiwan, the long in
China. So I suppose the short one is older
since nowadays everything seems to be built in
mainland China.

Now is where it gets interesting: the short one
is made of drop forged steel, and the long one:
chrome vanadium!


I've got a couple of bikes with hex nuts or bolts on the fender stays
and carry a single wrench on these bikes. I usually cut an existing
wrench down and drill holes in the handle to make it a bit lighter and
I notice that the better China Main Land made wrenches are made of
some pretty tough stuff. At least in the "better" grades.
--
cheers,

John B.

  #3  
Old July 24th 16, 12:19 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Emanuel Berg
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 318
Default combination spanner: drop forged steel vs. chrome vanadium

John B. wrote:

I've got a friend who has a small business
repairing outboard motors at a large marina
in Phuket, Thailand. And when you are always
out and about in the boat business you seem
to collect things.


It is the same for me even tho I don't do
boats! When you are at it with some activity
you notice suddenly all the new things.
When I did Karate I was in the dojo hundreds of
times without thinking about the screws in the
locker room, which had Torx heads. But after
doing bikes like two weeks that was the first
thing I saw when I entered the room! This goes
for tools and building material (wood) as well.
Some times it is impossible to resist having
long fingers because you strongly suspect
otherwise it'll just go to waste. It is also
educational as you learn how to clean and
repair stuff

Speaking of boats, I'm thinking of building
a raft with five 200 liter barrels in the
middle, and then two cantilevers of five 50
liter barrels each. But I think ropes will do
instead of mechanics - perhaps some 5 mm
cord...

I've got a couple of bikes with hex nuts or
bolts on the fender stays and carry a single
wrench on these bikes. I usually cut an
existing wrench down and drill holes in the
handle to make it a bit lighter and I notice
that the better China Main Land made wrenches
are made of some pretty tough stuff. At least
in the "better" grades.


Yeah, once upon a time everything was made in
England, then then rest of Europe, USA, then
Japan, Taiwan, now PR China, tomorrow India
perhaps... The outsourcing was perhaps due to
cheeper labor at some point but as for quality
Chinese stuff hasn't let me down so far.
On the other hand my father has a Chinese wife
and some of the stuff I get from her is broke
in several places even before I start using it!
But the stuff from China I buy in Sweden hasn't
failed so far. This isn't to say the old Europe
stuff wasn't awesome, proof of which is some of
the 60s bikes and tools are still around
working perfectly - and some stuff even older,
for example I repaired a mower the other day -
or actually it wasn't broke, it was just filled
with age-old grass

--
underground experts united .... http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573
Emacs Gnus Blogomatic ......... http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573/blogomatic
- so far: 58 Blogomatic articles -
  #4  
Old July 24th 16, 08:38 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
John B.[_6_]
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Posts: 2,202
Default combination spanner: drop forged steel vs. chrome vanadium

On Sun, 24 Jul 2016 01:19:50 +0200, Emanuel Berg
wrote:

John B. wrote:

I've got a friend who has a small business
repairing outboard motors at a large marina
in Phuket, Thailand. And when you are always
out and about in the boat business you seem
to collect things.


It is the same for me even tho I don't do
boats! When you are at it with some activity
you notice suddenly all the new things.
When I did Karate I was in the dojo hundreds of
times without thinking about the screws in the
locker room, which had Torx heads. But after
doing bikes like two weeks that was the first
thing I saw when I entered the room! This goes
for tools and building material (wood) as well.
Some times it is impossible to resist having
long fingers because you strongly suspect
otherwise it'll just go to waste. It is also
educational as you learn how to clean and
repair stuff

Speaking of boats, I'm thinking of building
a raft with five 200 liter barrels in the
middle, and then two cantilevers of five 50
liter barrels each. But I think ropes will do
instead of mechanics - perhaps some 5 mm
cord...


That isn't a boat, that is a barge :-)

If you mean five barrels in a row then that is about 14 feet, or a
little over 4 metre's. I would suggest a catamaran - two lengths of 5
containers in parallel.

I've build a few boats as well as a number of "floats" or whatever you
call them supported by barrels and my comments a

It will be heavier than a simple plywood boat but a bit easier to
build. Although it will likely be quite a lot cheaper. It will not
necessarily be more seaworthy. It will be very slow and without a crew
probably impossible to row or paddle.

If you build it as usually done, a grid of timber hold the containers
in place and their normal buoyancy keeps them in place up against the
underside of the deck. Usually they are tied in place with rope or
perhaps some sort of plastic strapping, which is not a major
structural part of the structure. Just a retainer, so to speak.

Usually one of more containers will have a leak and occasionally a
container may get heavy enough to sink, thus the retaining ropes.

Unless the framework and deck are very stiff, thus heavy, it will not
be a flat, solid, deck the deck will flex, to some extent, as a wave
passes under the hull(s).

Comments: It will likely be more seaworthy than the Vasa(Wasa?). It
certainly does not fit in with historical vessels in the region, and
if you are going Viking it is going to take two or three months to
reach England, or France :-)


II've got a couple of bikes with hex nuts or
bolts on the fender stays and carry a single
wrench on these bikes. I usually cut an
existing wrench down and drill holes in the
handle to make it a bit lighter and I notice
that the better China Main Land made wrenches
are made of some pretty tough stuff. At least
in the "better" grades.


Yeah, once upon a time everything was made in
England, then then rest of Europe, USA, then
Japan, Taiwan, now PR China, tomorrow India
perhaps... The outsourcing was perhaps due to
cheeper labor at some point but as for quality
Chinese stuff hasn't let me down so far.


From what I know it isn't just cheaper labor, although that gets all
the news coverage. My experience is that setting up the company,
taxes, government over sight, health and safety, medical and life
insurance coverage for the workers, materials (in many instances) are
all cheaper.

Years ago my company looked at setting up a subsidiary company in
Burma (Myanmar) I met with a Burmese lawyer (educated, and a member of
the bar, in England) and essentially to open a legal company I needed
to have a Burmese member of the Board and bring in US$ 10,000 and
lodge it in a Burmese bank, which became the Capitalization of the
company. Take a look into opening a company in Sweden, or the U.S. for
that matter.

As an aside, we decided not to establish a company as essentially the
kyat was valueless although there was an illegal rate of exchange that
the local bank would change money at, so we would have been forced
into using black market money. At the time there was almost no basic
support industry - to get office furniture you hired a carpenter and
he came to your office and made it. And it was becoming more and more
evident of just how awful the government really was. We decided that
it just wasn't worth the effort.


On the other hand my father has a Chinese wife
and some of the stuff I get from her is broke
in several places even before I start using it!
But the stuff from China I buy in Sweden hasn't
failed so far. This isn't to say the old Europe
stuff wasn't awesome, proof of which is some of
the 60s bikes and tools are still around
working perfectly - and some stuff even older,
for example I repaired a mower the other day -
or actually it wasn't broke, it was just filled
with age-old grass


Chinese stuff, in China, is just like any other country. There is the
good stuff and the bad stuff. A Flying Pidgin bicycle ( the company
had made 500 million units as of 2007) you could pass it on to your
descendents. Originally a single speed, some with a double top tube
for strength, a fully enclosed chain guard and made in a ladies model
also. But I believe that they have now been modernized although the
original models are still alive both in China and abroad, I've
frequently seen them in Singapore.

Allbaba has the old original, two top tube version for $45 - $65 each
in lots of 200.
--
cheers,

John B.

  #5  
Old July 24th 16, 02:28 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Emanuel Berg
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 318
Default combination spanner: drop forged steel vs. chrome vanadium

John B. wrote:

If you mean five barrels in a row then that
is about 14 feet, or a little over 4 metre's.
I would suggest a catamaran - two lengths of
5 containers in parallel.


OK, any suggestions what wood to use? The raft
part will be 3.5 meters square and then some
additional is required for a centerboard, mast,
possibly skeg, and so on.

Comments: It will likely be more seaworthy
than the Vasa(Wasa?). It certainly does not
fit in with historical vessels in the region,
and if you are going Viking it is going to
take two or three months to reach England, or
France :-)


So you know about all that.

Well, the Vikings (some 800-1100) had perfected
the craft for generations so obviously there is
no comparison. And they didn't use rafts, at
least not for their journeys to England
and France.

Vasa (or Wasa) was a royal warship (out of oak)
which sank in 1628, immediatly upon starting
the maiden voyage.

No, I got the print from this book so I suppose
it is Polynesian if any:

@book{det-stora-vågspelet,
author = {Alain Brun and Bengt Danielsson},
ISBN = 9177988515,
publisher = {Carlsson},
title = {Det stora vågspelet: Tahiti Nui-expeditionen},
year = {1994 (originally 1959)}
}

to get office furniture you hired a carpenter
and he came to your office and made it.


I wish it was like that here because that would
mean a lot of work

--
underground experts united .... http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573
Emacs Gnus Blogomatic ......... http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573/blogomatic
- so far: 58 Blogomatic articles -
  #6  
Old July 24th 16, 04:37 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Frank Krygowski[_4_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 10,538
Default combination spanner: drop forged steel vs. chrome vanadium

On 7/24/2016 3:38 AM, John B. wrote:


Comments: It will likely be more seaworthy than the Vasa(Wasa?).


We saw the Vasa in its museum a few years ago. It's still one of the
most amazing museums we've ever visited.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vasa_(ship)


--
- Frank Krygowski
  #7  
Old July 24th 16, 05:58 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
DATAKOLL MARINE RESEARCH
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,011
Default combination spanner: drop forged steel vs. chrome vanadium

maybe as a pedal wrench a CV ...otherwise bike torques are lower than CV specs.

https://goo.gl/UyZRlO

outstanding ! problem is finding one when needed. gotta keepum on the holder.

uneeda 10MM and 6MM

with a ball joint hex key set

and a propane torch.

  #8  
Old July 24th 16, 11:44 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Emanuel Berg
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 318
Default combination spanner: drop forged steel vs. chrome vanadium

Today I continued my examination of this tool.

The closed end seems to always have 12 slots -
perhaps the 6 of the hex nut, times 2, so you
can position it more freely? What about times
3, even more freely? Likely the tool would just
rotate around the nut... Why not 6 slots?
I suspect this would only limit the flexibility
severely (cut it in half) while the grip
stability wouldn't increase all that much (?)

The open end has one strong part and one which
is smaller. If you rotate the thing, you can
alway pull the right way!

But this can be difficult in the dark or below
~9°C when every second you work with
a unclothed tool will cool down your hand.

Perhaps one should not overemphasize flipping
it the right way. I suspect this is more
important for adjustable spanners which might
brake if flipped the wrong way. Incidentally,
adjustable spanners are a virtual nightmare to
use in cold and darkness!

Also, the open end is tilted somewhat from the
handle. No idea why that is - ergonomics,
transfer of power ... ?

--
underground experts united .... http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573
Emacs Gnus Blogomatic ......... http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573/blogomatic
- so far: 58 Blogomatic articles -
  #9  
Old July 25th 16, 12:02 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Mark J.
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 840
Default combination spanner: drop forged steel vs. chrome vanadium

On 7/24/2016 3:44 PM, Emanuel Berg wrote:
Today I continued my examination of this tool.

The closed end seems to always have 12 slots -
perhaps the 6 of the hex nut, times 2, so you
can position it more freely?


Yes, to position more freely. This is not so much an issue with bikes
(though sometimes there also), but when working in enclosed spaces, e.g.
automobile engines, it may be possible only to turn a nut 30-40 degrees
at a time without the free end of the wrench being blocked by another
part of the engine. Those 12 "points" as they are called enable the
user to work in more constrained situations.

What about times
3, even more freely? Likely the tool would just
rotate around the nut... Why not 6 slots?


So-called socket wrenches come in "6-point" and "12-point" varieties.
12-point sockets are easier to engage, and good for most general uses,
especially when working by feel or in the dark as you mention. 6-point
is stronger, for badly seized / stuck bolts, or for really tiny sizes,
where the 12-point may not have enough engagement with the bolt.

References:
https://www.amazon.com/Craftsman-Pie...int+socket+set

and

https://www.amazon.com/Craftsman-Pie...int+socket+set

I suspect this would only limit the flexibility
severely (cut it in half) while the grip
stability wouldn't increase all that much (?)

The open end has one strong part and one which
is smaller. If you rotate the thing, you can
alway pull the right way!

But this can be difficult in the dark or below
~9°C when every second you work with
a unclothed tool will cool down your hand.


Yes, I used to use very thin gloves when using wrenches in the cold.

Perhaps one should not overemphasize flipping
it the right way. I suspect this is more
important for adjustable spanners which might
brake if flipped the wrong way. Incidentally,
adjustable spanners are a virtual nightmare to
use in cold and darkness!

Also, the open end is tilted somewhat from the
handle. No idea why that is - ergonomics,
transfer of power ... ?


Same reason as the 12-point - for clearance. If one has multiple bolt
or nut heads arranged closely in the same plane, a non-angled wrench
could not turn (as) much.

Obligatory bike stuff: I did 207k on my three-year old carbon fiber
bike yesterday. Surely I am tempting fate, it will surely disintegrate
any day now, but it's so nice to ride! Or perhaps Trek really /does/
engineer in a safety margin, hard as that would be to believe.

Mark J.
  #10  
Old July 25th 16, 12:18 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Emanuel Berg
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 318
Default combination spanner: drop forged steel vs. chrome vanadium

Mark J. wrote:

Today I continued my examination of this
tool. The closed end seems to always have 12
slots - perhaps the 6 of the hex nut, times
2, so you can position it more freely?


Yes, to position more freely. This is not so
much an issue with bikes (though sometimes
there also), but when working in enclosed
spaces, e.g. automobile engines, it may be
possible only to turn a nut 30-40 degrees at
a time without the free end of the wrench
being blocked by another part of the engine.
Those 12 "points" as they are called enable
the user to work in more
constrained situations.


Right, then you want the "ratchet" or detent
mechanism so you don't need to get away and
reset the tool between pulls...

So-called socket wrenches come in "6-point"
and "12-point" varieties.


You mean the sockets do? Google shows me what
I thought was a rachet?

The sockets I've seen are 6 point and it makes
sense because the space required is the same no
matter how you rotate the socket, and as for
the handle it can be rotated freely, of course.

Why 12 point? So it'll be easier to get it
there in the first place?

--
underground experts united .... http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573
Emacs Gnus Blogomatic ......... http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573/blogomatic
- so far: 58 Blogomatic articles -
 




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