Creaking pedals

On Sun, 31 Jul 2016 09:44:22 +0100, "Graham"
wrote:

Idea: Put the bicycle on a trainer that elevates the rear wheel and
try to reproduce the creaking noises on the trainer. Forget about
using rollers because they're too noisy. Have an accomplice sit next
to you with a physicians stethoscope to locate the source of the
noise. It might be possible for your accomplice to follow your foot
around the crank with the stethoscope and isolate the exact source of
the noise.

If the stethoscope is too awkward, try an electret microphone and
extension cable plugged into a smartphone. You can see the noises on
the smartphone screen, which might be easier than listening.

If you're really into this, you can use two microphones to locate the
source by time difference of arrival. With the output from each
microphone connected to differential inputs on a dual trace
oscilloscope, the noise will cancel when the path lengths are equal.
That produces a flat plane surface, half way between the microphones,
which crosses the noise source. Do this several times, from different
angles, and it should locate the noise source.

Disclaimer: I've never tried any of this with a bicycle and have no
idea if it will actually work.

--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

On Sun, 31 Jul 2016 18:59:38 -0700 (PDT), jbeattie
wrote:

On Sunday, July 31, 2016 at 6:21:33 PM UTC-7, John B. wrote:
On Sun, 31 Jul 2016 09:44:22 +0100, "Graham"
wrote:

I have a Shimano chainset with Shimano pedals. I have just come back from a trip to the Pyrenees where I climbed some of the classic cols ridden in the TdF and Vuelta. After an hour or two of climbing at least one and possibly both of my pedals started to creak - every half rev.

After the first time I tried tightening them but they were already as tight as they would go and this made no difference. What did make a difference was slackening and then retightening them. This was only a temporary fix as the creak would return after another hour or two of climbing. The threads are clean and greased. Having got back home the problem has not returned when cycling around on much flatter territory. I guess it will though when I climb the next sizeable hill.

Anyone come across this before and found a fix. I was considering trying some plumbers ptfe tape to take up any possible slight mismatch in the thread profiles or to provide another form of lubrication to prevent the creak.

Graham.

Plumber's tape is a soft, slippery, Teflon tape that is intended to
deform under pressure, without tearing, in order to seal the threads
against pressure in pipe. Not to somehow render the joint ridged.

Jobst Brandt apparently had considerable problems with pedals and
evolved some fixes. One of which I believe involved machining a
tapered seat in the crank.

A starting point might be to remove the pedals and clean the crank arm
and pedal shank thoroughly and examine them, with a magnifier, if
necessary. If the pedal shank and crank are unblemished then apply
anti-seize (or grease) and reinstall the pedals. Torque to Shimano
specified 25 - 40 ft. lbs. If it were me, I believe I would tend
toward the upper end of the recommended torque range. And, I would, in
this instance actually torque the pedals in place. Not just tighten
them up, grunt and think "tight enough all ready".

Then try it. If it doesn't creak you have solved the problem, and if
they still creak you have at least eliminated some possible causes :-)
--

Jobst's problem was that he broke a lot of cranks due to cracking at the pedal-eye, so he came up with his home-brew conical washer arrangement. I don't think he had creaking problems.

-- Jay Beattie.

I suppose that one of the problems is that "creaking pedals" is a
rather broad description that so far has been equated with three, or
is it four, different causes. What we need is a "definitions" section
on the first page :-)
--
cheers,

John B.

"John B." wrote in message ...
On Sun, 31 Jul 2016 09:44:22 +0100, "Graham"
wrote:

I have a Shimano chainset with Shimano pedals. I have just come back from a trip to the Pyrenees where I climbed some of the classic cols ridden in the TdF and Vuelta. After an hour or two of climbing at least one and possibly both of my pedals started to creak - every half rev.

After the first time I tried tightening them but they were already as tight as they would go and this made no difference. What did make a difference was slackening and then retightening them. This was only a temporary fix as the creak would return after another hour or two of climbing. The threads are clean and greased. Having got back home the problem has not returned when cycling around on much flatter territory. I guess it will though when I climb the next sizeable hill.

Anyone come across this before and found a fix. I was considering trying some plumbers ptfe tape to take up any possible slight mismatch in the thread profiles or to provide another form of lubrication to prevent the creak.

Graham.

Plumber's tape is a soft, slippery, Teflon tape that is intended to
deform under pressure, without tearing, in order to seal the threads
against pressure in pipe. Not to somehow render the joint ridged.

Jobst Brandt apparently had considerable problems with pedals and
evolved some fixes. One of which I believe involved machining a
tapered seat in the crank.

A starting point might be to remove the pedals and clean the crank arm
and pedal shank thoroughly and examine them, with a magnifier, if
necessary. If the pedal shank and crank are unblemished then apply
anti-seize (or grease) and reinstall the pedals. Torque to Shimano
specified 25 - 40 ft. lbs. If it were me, I believe I would tend
toward the upper end of the recommended torque range. And, I would, in
this instance actually torque the pedals in place. Not just tighten
them up, grunt and think "tight enough all ready".

Then try it. If it doesn't creak you have solved the problem, and if
they still creak you have at least eliminated some possible causes :-)
--
cheers,

John B.

Firstly thanks to all who have contributed ideas so far. I plan to work my way throught them.

So far I have removed, cleaned, greased and replaced the bottom bracket and the chain ring bolts. Both appeared to be tight before hand and the threads were already clean and greased on removal with no signs of damage so hopefully I can cross them off the list. My past experience with both is they tend to click rather than creak. I have cleaned and lubricated the pedal shoe interfaces so hopefully they are off the list too. Again these tend to sqeak or click.

Hopefully we all have the same or similar appreciation of what is meant in the bike context by the highly technical terms of squeak, click and creak

The next plan is to do a series of hill reps up a local 1 mile 7.5% grade hill to see if the creak returns under climbing load. If it does and it should if it was the pedal/crank interface which so far I have not touched then I will try the various suggestions on that.

To answer John's point above I have done all of what he suggests except accurately torquing the pedals. With a 15" wrench I have always found the "grunt" approach gets the pedals tight enough. I do however have a torque wrench suitable for the job but that will rely on the hex slot in the back of the pedal axle holding up. In the past I have found these to round at modest torques. My remove, clean, grease, replace and "grunt" approach does seem to cure the problem for at least one to two hours of hard climing as I mentioned in my original post.

One more clue to the source I forgot to mention last time is that I could silence the creaks for while by standing on the pedals with the cranks horizontal and bunny hopping the bike.

Graham.

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On Mon, 1 Aug 2016 09:49:46 +0100, "Graham"
wrote:


"John B." wrote in message ...
On Sun, 31 Jul 2016 09:44:22 +0100, "Graham"
wrote:

I have a Shimano chainset with Shimano pedals. I have just come back from a trip to the Pyrenees where I climbed some of the classic cols ridden in the TdF and Vuelta. After an hour or two of climbing at least one and possibly both of my pedals started to creak - every half rev.

After the first time I tried tightening them but they were already as tight as they would go and this made no difference. What did make a difference was slackening and then retightening them. This was only a temporary fix as the creak would return after another hour or two of climbing. The threads are clean and greased. Having got back home the problem has not returned when cycling around on much flatter territory. I guess it will though when I climb the next sizeable hill.

Anyone come across this before and found a fix. I was considering trying some plumbers ptfe tape to take up any possible slight mismatch in the thread profiles or to provide another form of lubrication to prevent the creak.

Graham.

Plumber's tape is a soft, slippery, Teflon tape that is intended to
deform under pressure, without tearing, in order to seal the threads
against pressure in pipe. Not to somehow render the joint ridged.

Jobst Brandt apparently had considerable problems with pedals and
evolved some fixes. One of which I believe involved machining a
tapered seat in the crank.

A starting point might be to remove the pedals and clean the crank arm
and pedal shank thoroughly and examine them, with a magnifier, if
necessary. If the pedal shank and crank are unblemished then apply
anti-seize (or grease) and reinstall the pedals. Torque to Shimano
specified 25 - 40 ft. lbs. If it were me, I believe I would tend
toward the upper end of the recommended torque range. And, I would, in
this instance actually torque the pedals in place. Not just tighten
them up, grunt and think "tight enough all ready".

Then try it. If it doesn't creak you have solved the problem, and if
they still creak you have at least eliminated some possible causes :-)
--
cheers,

John B.

Firstly thanks to all who have contributed ideas so far. I plan to work my way throught them.

So far I have removed, cleaned, greased and replaced the bottom bracket and the chain ring bolts. Both appeared to be tight before hand and the threads were already clean and greased on removal with no signs of damage so hopefully I can cross them off the list. My past experience with both is they tend to click rather than creak. I have cleaned and lubricated the pedal shoe interfaces so hopefully they are off the list too. Again these tend to sqeak or click.

Hopefully we all have the same or similar appreciation of what is meant in the bike context by the highly technical terms of squeak, click and creak

The next plan is to do a series of hill reps up a local 1 mile 7.5% grade hill to see if the creak returns under climbing load. If it does and it should if it was the pedal/crank interface which so far I have not touched then I will try the various suggestions on that.

To answer John's point above I have done all of what he suggests except accurately torquing the pedals. With a 15" wrench I have always found the "grunt" approach gets the pedals tight enough. I do however have a torque wrench suitable for the job but that will rely on the hex slot in the back of the pedal axle holding up. In the past I have found these to round at modest torques. My remove, clean, grease, replace and "grunt" approach does seem to cure the problem for at least one to two hours of hard climing as I mentioned in my original post.

And normally I would not think it necessary to torque a pedal but I
suggested it in my post simply as a means to (hopefully) eliminate yet
another possible cause.

By the way, one can torque a fitting with an open end wrench. Measure
from the center of the threads, in a straight line, to some point on
the wrench handle apply the required force at that point. :-)

One more clue to the source I forgot to mention last time is that I could silence the creaks for while by standing on the pedals with the cranks horizontal and bunny hopping the bike.

Graham.

--
cheers,

John B.

On 7/31/2016 8:59 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Sunday, July 31, 2016 at 6:21:33 PM UTC-7, John B. wrote:
On Sun, 31 Jul 2016 09:44:22 +0100, "Graham"
wrote:

I have a Shimano chainset with Shimano pedals. I have just come back from a trip to the Pyrenees where I climbed some of the classic cols ridden in the TdF and Vuelta. After an hour or two of climbing at least one and possibly both of my pedals started to creak - every half rev.

After the first time I tried tightening them but they were already as tight as they would go and this made no difference. What did make a difference was slackening and then retightening them. This was only a temporary fix as the creak would return after another hour or two of climbing. The threads are clean and greased. Having got back home the problem has not returned when cycling around on much flatter territory. I guess it will though when I climb the next sizeable hill.

Anyone come across this before and found a fix. I was considering trying some plumbers ptfe tape to take up any possible slight mismatch in the thread profiles or to provide another form of lubrication to prevent the creak.

Graham.

Plumber's tape is a soft, slippery, Teflon tape that is intended to
deform under pressure, without tearing, in order to seal the threads
against pressure in pipe. Not to somehow render the joint ridged.

Jobst Brandt apparently had considerable problems with pedals and
evolved some fixes. One of which I believe involved machining a
tapered seat in the crank.

A starting point might be to remove the pedals and clean the crank arm
and pedal shank thoroughly and examine them, with a magnifier, if
necessary. If the pedal shank and crank are unblemished then apply
anti-seize (or grease) and reinstall the pedals. Torque to Shimano
specified 25 - 40 ft. lbs. If it were me, I believe I would tend
toward the upper end of the recommended torque range. And, I would, in
this instance actually torque the pedals in place. Not just tighten
them up, grunt and think "tight enough all ready".

Then try it. If it doesn't creak you have solved the problem, and if
they still creak you have at least eliminated some possible causes :-)
--

Jobst's problem was that he broke a lot of cranks due to cracking at the pedal-eye, so he came up with his home-brew conical washer arrangement. I don't think he had creaking problems.

-- Jay Beattie.


Right so far as it goes. Jobst deduced failure from
precession and designed his tapered collar to stop that
motion which should, in theory, quiet that joint as a
secondary benefit.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On 8/1/2016 6:07 AM, John B. wrote:

By the way, one can torque a fitting with an open end wrench. Measure
from the center of the threads, in a straight line, to some point on
the wrench handle apply the required force at that point. :-)

I've done things like that when necessary. (e.g. to apply hundreds of
foot pounds of torque to some big fasteners, my weight was the known
force and I chose the length of the moment arm to produce the proper
torque.) But there are adapters one can use with a torque wrench. For
example, a "Crow's Foot" adapter might be used.
http://www.sears.com/craftsman-10-pc...b lockType=G2
The torque wrench will probably give a slightly erroneous reading, since
the effective arm length will be different. To be really accurate,
you'll account for the difference in effective length.


--
- Frank Krygowski

On 8/1/2016 4:49 AM, Graham wrote:


One more clue to the source I forgot to mention last time is that I could silence the creaks for while by standing on the pedals with the cranks horizontal and bunny hopping the bike.

That might be an important clue!

That's leading me to suspect some problem where the crank arm connects
to the bottom bracket spindle. What model crankset are you using?

Did that trick work no matter which foot was forward when you stood on
the horizontal cranks?

--
- Frank Krygowski

"Frank Krygowski" wrote in message ...
On 8/1/2016 4:49 AM, Graham wrote:


One more clue to the source I forgot to mention last time is that I could silence the creaks for while by standing on the pedals with the cranks horizontal and bunny hopping the bike.

That might be an important clue!

That's leading me to suspect some problem where the crank arm connects
to the bottom bracket spindle. What model crankset are you using?

Shimano Hollowtech II Ultegra.

Did that trick work no matter which foot was forward when you stood on
the horizontal cranks?

Now that I could not say for sure. I can check if/when the creaking re-occurs.

Would I be correct in assuming you are considering some directional aspect to the problem possibly to do with the direction of loading. If so it is worth noting that only one of the crank arms, the left, is detachable with the Hollowtech design.

The left crank arm is secured by a clamping arrangement tightened by two hex head bolts. As I have a Stages power meter on left crank then I do make sure that I torque those bolts exactly to spec to assure optimum functioning of the meter.

The last time I removed the crank I checked the crank and spindle splines and they looked ok but that is only by visual inspection. I have no way of checking whether they are both close to the extremes of their spec tolerances which could adversely affect the fit. I have just rechecked the torque values and they are on spec.

The power meter also looks to be giving sensible readings comparing its output on the Pyrenean climbs to that I calculated from the basic physics for the climbs. If the crank arm were not "solidly" connected to the spindle then I would expect this to adversely affect the power reading.

Graham.










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On Monday, August 1, 2016 at 10:00:45 AM UTC-7, Graham wrote:
"Frank Krygowski" wrote in message ...
On 8/1/2016 4:49 AM, Graham wrote:


One more clue to the source I forgot to mention last time is that I could silence the creaks for while by standing on the pedals with the cranks horizontal and bunny hopping the bike.

That might be an important clue!

That's leading me to suspect some problem where the crank arm connects
to the bottom bracket spindle. What model crankset are you using?

Shimano Hollowtech II Ultegra.

Did that trick work no matter which foot was forward when you stood on
the horizontal cranks?

Now that I could not say for sure. I can check if/when the creaking re-occurs.

Would I be correct in assuming you are considering some directional aspect to the problem possibly to do with the direction of loading. If so it is worth noting that only one of the crank arms, the left, is detachable with the Hollowtech design.

The left crank arm is secured by a clamping arrangement tightened by two hex head bolts. As I have a Stages power meter on left crank then I do make sure that I torque those bolts exactly to spec to assure optimum functioning of the meter.

The last time I removed the crank I checked the crank and spindle splines and they looked ok but that is only by visual inspection. I have no way of checking whether they are both close to the extremes of their spec tolerances which could adversely affect the fit. I have just rechecked the torque values and they are on spec.

The power meter also looks to be giving sensible readings comparing its output on the Pyrenean climbs to that I calculated from the basic physics for the climbs. If the crank arm were not "solidly" connected to the spindle then I would expect this to adversely affect the power reading.


That interface usually isn't problematic so long as the bolts are torqued to spec. Watch out for those things -- they strip easily, even with a good 5mm hex socket. What can happen, though, is that the crank is not snugged far enough on to the spindle before the bolts are tightened, which can cause rocking and might cause creaking. Check for slop in the crank.

IMO, your experience with the noise going away after a bunny hop might be a symptom of pedal thread slop. You drive the threads together by jumping on the pedals, and they stay quiet for a moment. Who knows. It could also be your BB. Make sure that is tight.

By the way, I assume you're using a standard Shimano threaded BB -- or do you have a BB30 or other press-fit format and adapters. What type of BB do you have? If you have one of the press-in Shimano adapters like the Praxis Works, that's probably your problem right there.

-- Jay Beattie.

"jbeattie" wrote in message ...
On Monday, August 1, 2016 at 10:00:45 AM UTC-7, Graham wrote:
"Frank Krygowski" wrote in message ...
On 8/1/2016 4:49 AM, Graham wrote:


One more clue to the source I forgot to mention last time is that I could silence the creaks for while by standing on the pedals with the cranks horizontal and bunny hopping the bike.

That might be an important clue!

That's leading me to suspect some problem where the crank arm connects
to the bottom bracket spindle. What model crankset are you using?

Shimano Hollowtech II Ultegra.

Did that trick work no matter which foot was forward when you stood on
the horizontal cranks?

Now that I could not say for sure. I can check if/when the creaking re-occurs.

Would I be correct in assuming you are considering some directional aspect to the problem possibly to do with the direction of loading. If so it is worth noting that only one of the crank arms, the left, is detachable with the Hollowtech design.

The left crank arm is secured by a clamping arrangement tightened by two hex head bolts. As I have a Stages power meter on left crank then I do make sure that I torque those bolts exactly to spec to assure optimum functioning of the meter.

The last time I removed the crank I checked the crank and spindle splines and they looked ok but that is only by visual inspection. I have no way of checking whether they are both close to the extremes of their spec tolerances which could adversely affect the fit. I have just rechecked the torque values and they are on spec.

The power meter also looks to be giving sensible readings comparing its output on the Pyrenean climbs to that I calculated from the basic physics for the climbs. If the crank arm were not "solidly" connected to the spindle then I would expect this to adversely affect the power reading.


That interface usually isn't problematic so long as the bolts are torqued to spec. Watch out for those things -- they strip easily, even with a good 5mm hex socket.

I know all about Shimano's "soft" bolts ;( I have replaced then in all my cranks with decent ones having had to drill into one and drive in a Torx bit to remove it.

What can happen, though, is that the crank is not snugged far enough on to the spindle before the bolts are tightened, which can cause rocking and might cause creaking. Check for slop in the crank.

With regards to the a snug fit of the crank on the spindle then I use the plastic "wheel" tool and screw the pre-load "plug" in hand tight. I will check it again just to make sure and rule it out.

IMO, your experience with the noise going away after a bunny hop might be a symptom of pedal thread slop. You drive the threads together by jumping on the pedals, and they stay quiet for a moment. Who knows.

That's my current thinking as to the effect. If it is I have still to find a permanent solution to the underlying problem.

It could also be your BB. Make sure that is tight.

I have checked the BB by removing, cleaning, regreasing and reinstalling and it is tight.

By the way, I assume you're using a standard Shimano threaded BB

Correct. A standard Ultegra BB from the same groupset as the chainset.

Graham.

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