Bicycling specific clothing = why not?

On Saturday, July 13, 2019 at 9:16:29 PM UTC-4, Duane wrote:
Frank Krygowski wrote:


AK started this sub-thread with his statement that he knew head injured cyclists,
and his implication that therefore bicyclists should wear helmets.

Nobody has suitably explained why that logic applies only for bicyclists, who
are NOT at unusual individual risk, and who make up only a microscopic percentage
of serious brain injuries nationally.

So where ARE you going? Are you back to claiming that all bicyclists should wear
helmets? And that nobody should post any data skeptical of helmets?

Perhaps you should just let people post what they like, and read only what
interests you. And perhaps you should let each person make their own choice of
hat style. Or gosh, maybe even ride without hats!

https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/07...-02_grande.jpg

- Frank Krygowski


Whether you are right or wrong, John posting bogus stats is still nonsense.
That’s all, I’m saying. I’m sick of fake data. Sick enough to reply to
you. So perhaps you should try to encourage actual science and data to
support your cause.

I have posted tons of actual data regarding this issue, data derived by actual
research and actual science. None are so blind as those who will not see. None
are so ignorant as those who refuse to read.

Bike deaths are not much more than falling out of bed deaths in the U.S. (BTW,
in some years in Canada, falling out of bed deaths actually exceeded bike deaths.) Why is this relevant?

Here's why: One of the arguments frequently raised in favor of helmet use and in
favor of helmet laws is "cost to society." I can dig out some direct quotes if
you really haven't noticed; but those claims typically go something like "Each
serious brain injury can cost up to $XXXXXXXX in long term care. Brain injuries
are estimated to cost the economy $YYYYYYYYYY per year. So it's important for
every bicyclist to wear a helmet every time they ride."

Anyone who has had a course - or just a lecture - in Critical Thinking _should_
be able to expose the logical disconnects. But a huge one is that bicyclists
are a tiny portion of the nation's brain injuries and of those societal costs.
How to make that clear to un-critical thinkers? One way is by giving relevant
figures for _other_ causes of such injuries.

Dedicated helmet promoters don't buy that, of course. In their dedication to the
"fact" that bicycling is really, really dangerous, they mock any such comparison.
They don't want things put in context. They want things black-and-white simple -
as in "Some people get hurt bicycling, so OF COURSE everyone should always wear
a helmet every time they ride."

And when they can't counter the above argument, they fire up their kill file.
Right, Duane?

- Frank Krygowski

On Saturday, July 13, 2019 at 5:54:37 PM UTC-5, John B. wrote:
On Sat, 13 Jul 2019 13:02:22 -0700 (PDT), Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On Saturday, July 13, 2019 at 3:17:11 PM UTC-4, AK wrote:
On Thursday, July 11, 2019 at 10:06:19 AM UTC-5, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Thursday, July 11, 2019 at 8:30:19 AM UTC-4, news18 wrote:
On Thu, 11 Jul 2019 16:00:38 +1000, James wrote:


(In most of Australia it is a legal requirement to wear a helmet. That
in itself could be said to be a change to what you're wearing.)

Unless you've just been up a ladder.
Bacxkground; men over 60 feature significantly in deaths from falling off
a ladder in Australia and I consider a bicycle helment of better use than
those plastic "construction hats".

Ladder manufacturers are too smart to accept promotion of ladder helmets. It
will make use of ladders seem too dangerous.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=07o-TASvIxY

- Frank Krygowski

Mr. Anderon is somewhat interesting.

He tends to drag things out.

So I only watched half of it.

If he believes we should not wear a helmet while biking, I can give him names of folks permanently injured because they chose not to wear a helmet.

I can give names of people who died of brain injuries - at least, that was the
most likely cause of death - and who didn't wear helmets. But all the ones I
personally knew were inside cars at the time. That's not unusual, given the
roughly 40,000 annual motorist deaths in this country.

I had one friend who used to ride a motorcycle almost identical to mine, an
antique BMW. He died while wearing a helmet.

I know that the number of pedestrians killed annually in the U.S., Canada,
Britain, Australia (and probably more countries) greatly exceeds the number of
bicyclists killed. As an example, the recent U.S. pedestrian fatality counts
have been approaching 6000. (Bicyclist fatalities are about 800.) I've seen
NEISS data showing that the percentage of fatalities due to brain injury are
about 45% for bikes, about 40% for pedestrians. That means _lots_ more ped
TBI deaths. And other data shows that the pedestrians are at more risk per
mile traveled, too.

And I've had friends who suffered pretty severe (as in, rush to the ER) head
injuries from just walking. They each tripped and fell on their face. Another
good friend just had the same thing happen, but didn't go to ER; she just dealt
with the resulting facial bruises on her own.

When, oh when, are we going to get helmet promotion for pedestrians and motorists?

- Frank Krygowski

I read somewhere that some 450 USians die annually from falling out of
bed. It is apparent that "bed Helmets" or at least safety belts
should be required.

Why don't our leaders do something to stop this carnage!
--
cheers,

John B.

To be honest, most of our leaders do not represent their constituency.

To be elected takes big bucks.

If say some honest God fearing person wants to run.

He will need a lot of money to run his campaign.

How many companies etc. will be willing to support that person if they know he will not give them any favors?

Have a great weekend,
Andy

On Sat, 13 Jul 2019 23:13:07 -0000 (UTC), Duane
wrote:

John B. wrote:
On Sat, 13 Jul 2019 13:02:22 -0700 (PDT), Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On Saturday, July 13, 2019 at 3:17:11 PM UTC-4, AK wrote:
On Thursday, July 11, 2019 at 10:06:19 AM UTC-5, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Thursday, July 11, 2019 at 8:30:19 AM UTC-4, news18 wrote:
On Thu, 11 Jul 2019 16:00:38 +1000, James wrote:


(In most of Australia it is a legal requirement to wear a helmet. That
in itself could be said to be a change to what you're wearing.)

Unless you've just been up a ladder.
Bacxkground; men over 60 feature significantly in deaths from falling off
a ladder in Australia and I consider a bicycle helment of better use than
those plastic "construction hats".

Ladder manufacturers are too smart to accept promotion of ladder helmets. It
will make use of ladders seem too dangerous.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=07o-TASvIxY

- Frank Krygowski

Mr. Anderon is somewhat interesting.

He tends to drag things out.

So I only watched half of it.

If he believes we should not wear a helmet while biking, I can give him
names of folks permanently injured because they chose not to wear a helmet.

I can give names of people who died of brain injuries - at least, that was the
most likely cause of death - and who didn't wear helmets. But all the ones I
personally knew were inside cars at the time. That's not unusual, given the
roughly 40,000 annual motorist deaths in this country.

I had one friend who used to ride a motorcycle almost identical to mine, an
antique BMW. He died while wearing a helmet.

I know that the number of pedestrians killed annually in the U.S., Canada,
Britain, Australia (and probably more countries) greatly exceeds the number of
bicyclists killed. As an example, the recent U.S. pedestrian fatality counts
have been approaching 6000. (Bicyclist fatalities are about 800.) I've seen
NEISS data showing that the percentage of fatalities due to brain injury are
about 45% for bikes, about 40% for pedestrians. That means _lots_ more ped
TBI deaths. And other data shows that the pedestrians are at more risk per
mile traveled, too.

And I've had friends who suffered pretty severe (as in, rush to the ER) head
injuries from just walking. They each tripped and fell on their face. Another
good friend just had the same thing happen, but didn't go to ER; she just dealt
with the resulting facial bruises on her own.

When, oh when, are we going to get helmet promotion for pedestrians and motorists?

- Frank Krygowski

I read somewhere that some 450 USians die annually from falling out of
bed. It is apparent that "bed Helmets" or at least safety belts
should be required.

Why don't our leaders do something to stop this carnage!
--
cheers,

John B.



How many times will you post that? I’m tired of explaining to you about
universe of discourse. What percentage of those sleeping in beds die from
falling out of bed?

Let me give you a hint. 300 or so million Americans sleep in beds. 450
die falling out of them. The math is not complicated.

700 or so die cycling. How many cycle? See where I’m going with this? I
guess not..l


And I read that a hundred million ride bicycles in the U.S. and some
777 died in 2017 (the last year on the chart) so .007% died. And this
is such a vast majority that we must jump up and down and wave out
arms in the air and shout "Helmets, Helmets, you can only be safe if
you wear a helmet!".

I believe that the U.S. National Anthem mentions "the land of the free
and the brave". will it be changed to "The Land of the Free and the
Timorous"?
--
cheers,

John B.

On Saturday, July 13, 2019 at 11:09:35 PM UTC-4, news18 wrote:
On Sun, 14 Jul 2019 05:46:54 +0700, John B. wrote:

On Sat, 13 Jul 2019 12:17:10 -0700 (PDT), AK
wrote:

I cringe when I see motorcyclists without helmets. :-(

Why? cyclists of both species rode their two wheeled devices for far
more many years without helmets than with.

no they crop the casualities for organ transplants.

Let me just point out that Sir Ridesalot was offended by me occasionally
calling helmets "magic hats."

But the most prominent helmet promotion website in the U.S. has (or perhaps had)
a list of insults to use against people who choose to ride without a helmet.
Among those was to call them "organ donors."

And for Duane's benefit: I countered that with actual data, which I found with
the assistance of a good friend who is a kidney recipient and who does education
on real organ donations. He pointed out that - as with brain injuries in general -
bicyclist comprise a negligible percentage of organ donors. (Ditto motorcyclists.)
Motorists are a big source. So are victims of strokes.

But helmet promoters here or elsewhere have never objected to the "organ donor"
crap or to the organized publishing of insults. Whatever sells helmets has
always been fine with them.

- Frank Krygowski

On Sat, 13 Jul 2019 17:19:11 -0700 (PDT), Sir Ridesalot
wrote:

On Saturday, July 13, 2019 at 7:50:04 PM UTC-4, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Saturday, July 13, 2019 at 7:13:10 PM UTC-4, Duane wrote:
John B. wrote:
On Sat, 13 Jul 2019 13:02:22 -0700 (PDT), Frank Krygowski wrote:

On Saturday, July 13, 2019 at 3:17:11 PM UTC-4, AK wrote:


If he believes we should not wear a helmet while biking, I can give him
names of folks permanently injured because they chose not to wear a helmet.

I can give names of people who died of brain injuries - at least, that was the
most likely cause of death - and who didn't wear helmets. But all the ones I
personally knew were inside cars at the time. That's not unusual, given the
roughly 40,000 annual motorist deaths in this country.

I had one friend who used to ride a motorcycle almost identical to mine, an
antique BMW. He died while wearing a helmet.

I know that the number of pedestrians killed annually in the U.S., Canada,
Britain, Australia (and probably more countries) greatly exceeds the number of
bicyclists killed. As an example, the recent U.S. pedestrian fatality counts
have been approaching 6000. (Bicyclist fatalities are about 800.) I've seen
NEISS data showing that the percentage of fatalities due to brain injury are
about 45% for bikes, about 40% for pedestrians. That means _lots_ more ped
TBI deaths. And other data shows that the pedestrians are at more risk per
mile traveled, too.

And I've had friends who suffered pretty severe (as in, rush to the ER) head
injuries from just walking. They each tripped and fell on their face. Another
good friend just had the same thing happen, but didn't go to ER; she just dealt
with the resulting facial bruises on her own.

When, oh when, are we going to get helmet promotion for pedestrians and motorists?

- Frank Krygowski

I read somewhere that some 450 USians die annually from falling out of
bed. It is apparent that "bed Helmets" or at least safety belts
should be required.

Why don't our leaders do something to stop this carnage!
--
cheers,

John B.



How many times will you post that? I’m tired of explaining to you about
universe of discourse. What percentage of those sleeping in beds die from
falling out of bed?

Let me give you a hint. 300 or so million Americans sleep in beds. 450
die falling out of them. The math is not complicated.

700 or so die cycling. How many cycle? See where I’m going with this? I
guess not..l

AK started this sub-thread with his statement that he knew head injured cyclists,
and his implication that therefore bicyclists should wear helmets.

Nobody has suitably explained why that logic applies only for bicyclists, who
are NOT at unusual individual risk, and who make up only a microscopic percentage
of serious brain injuries nationally.

So where ARE you going? Are you back to claiming that all bicyclists should wear
helmets? And that nobody should post any data skeptical of helmets?

Perhaps you should just let people post what they like, and read only what
interests you. And perhaps you should let each person make their own choice of
hat style. Or gosh, maybe even ride without hats!

https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/07...-02_grande.jpg

- Frank Krygowski

And not disparage those who choose to wear a helmet by you calling them "magic Hats". LOL

Cheers

How does one refer to a thing that is tested in a drop of about 14
miles per hour and that people firmly believe will protect them at
speeds of 60 mph? (speed mentioned by Tom only a day or so ago)

It would seem that "magic hat" is a reasonable description.
--
cheers,

John B.

On Sun, 14 Jul 2019 01:16:27 -0000 (UTC), Duane
wrote:

Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Saturday, July 13, 2019 at 7:13:10 PM UTC-4, Duane wrote:
John B. wrote:
On Sat, 13 Jul 2019 13:02:22 -0700 (PDT), Frank Krygowski wrote:

On Saturday, July 13, 2019 at 3:17:11 PM UTC-4, AK wrote:


If he believes we should not wear a helmet while biking, I can give him
names of folks permanently injured because they chose not to wear a helmet.

I can give names of people who died of brain injuries - at least, that was the
most likely cause of death - and who didn't wear helmets. But all the ones I
personally knew were inside cars at the time. That's not unusual, given the
roughly 40,000 annual motorist deaths in this country.

I had one friend who used to ride a motorcycle almost identical to mine, an
antique BMW. He died while wearing a helmet.

I know that the number of pedestrians killed annually in the U.S., Canada,
Britain, Australia (and probably more countries) greatly exceeds the number of
bicyclists killed. As an example, the recent U.S. pedestrian fatality counts
have been approaching 6000. (Bicyclist fatalities are about 800.) I've seen
NEISS data showing that the percentage of fatalities due to brain injury are
about 45% for bikes, about 40% for pedestrians. That means _lots_ more ped
TBI deaths. And other data shows that the pedestrians are at more risk per
mile traveled, too.

And I've had friends who suffered pretty severe (as in, rush to the ER) head
injuries from just walking. They each tripped and fell on their face. Another
good friend just had the same thing happen, but didn't go to ER; she just dealt
with the resulting facial bruises on her own.

When, oh when, are we going to get helmet promotion for pedestrians and motorists?

- Frank Krygowski

I read somewhere that some 450 USians die annually from falling out of
bed. It is apparent that "bed Helmets" or at least safety belts
should be required.

Why don't our leaders do something to stop this carnage!
--
cheers,

John B.



How many times will you post that? I’m tired of explaining to you about
universe of discourse. What percentage of those sleeping in beds die from
falling out of bed?

Let me give you a hint. 300 or so million Americans sleep in beds. 450
die falling out of them. The math is not complicated.

700 or so die cycling. How many cycle? See where I’m going with this? I
guess not..l

AK started this sub-thread with his statement that he knew head injured cyclists,
and his implication that therefore bicyclists should wear helmets.

Nobody has suitably explained why that logic applies only for bicyclists, who
are NOT at unusual individual risk, and who make up only a microscopic percentage
of serious brain injuries nationally.

So where ARE you going? Are you back to claiming that all bicyclists should wear
helmets? And that nobody should post any data skeptical of helmets?

Perhaps you should just let people post what they like, and read only what
interests you. And perhaps you should let each person make their own choice of
hat style. Or gosh, maybe even ride without hats!

https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/07...-02_grande.jpg

- Frank Krygowski


Whether you are right or wrong, John posting bogus stats is still nonsense.
That’s all, I’m saying. I’m sick of fake data. Sick enough to reply to
you. So perhaps you should try to encourage actual science and data to
support your cause.

What bogus stats did I mention?

Other than a few tongue in cheek figures that I've posted ridiculing
(probably) ridicules bicycle statistics I usually post my references,
don't I?
--
cheers,

John B.

On Sat, 13 Jul 2019 17:13:54 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
wrote:

On Saturday, July 13, 2019 at 4:13:10 PM UTC-7, Duane wrote:
John B. wrote:
On Sat, 13 Jul 2019 13:02:22 -0700 (PDT), Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On Saturday, July 13, 2019 at 3:17:11 PM UTC-4, AK wrote:
On Thursday, July 11, 2019 at 10:06:19 AM UTC-5, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Thursday, July 11, 2019 at 8:30:19 AM UTC-4, news18 wrote:
On Thu, 11 Jul 2019 16:00:38 +1000, James wrote:


(In most of Australia it is a legal requirement to wear a helmet. That
in itself could be said to be a change to what you're wearing.)

Unless you've just been up a ladder.
Bacxkground; men over 60 feature significantly in deaths from falling off
a ladder in Australia and I consider a bicycle helment of better use than
those plastic "construction hats".

Ladder manufacturers are too smart to accept promotion of ladder helmets. It
will make use of ladders seem too dangerous.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=07o-TASvIxY

- Frank Krygowski

Mr. Anderon is somewhat interesting.

He tends to drag things out.

So I only watched half of it.

If he believes we should not wear a helmet while biking, I can give him
names of folks permanently injured because they chose not to wear a helmet.

I can give names of people who died of brain injuries - at least, that was the
most likely cause of death - and who didn't wear helmets. But all the ones I
personally knew were inside cars at the time. That's not unusual, given the
roughly 40,000 annual motorist deaths in this country.

I had one friend who used to ride a motorcycle almost identical to mine, an
antique BMW. He died while wearing a helmet.

I know that the number of pedestrians killed annually in the U.S., Canada,
Britain, Australia (and probably more countries) greatly exceeds the number of
bicyclists killed. As an example, the recent U.S. pedestrian fatality counts
have been approaching 6000. (Bicyclist fatalities are about 800.) I've seen
NEISS data showing that the percentage of fatalities due to brain injury are
about 45% for bikes, about 40% for pedestrians. That means _lots_ more ped
TBI deaths. And other data shows that the pedestrians are at more risk per
mile traveled, too.

And I've had friends who suffered pretty severe (as in, rush to the ER) head
injuries from just walking. They each tripped and fell on their face. Another
good friend just had the same thing happen, but didn't go to ER; she just dealt
with the resulting facial bruises on her own.

When, oh when, are we going to get helmet promotion for pedestrians and motorists?

- Frank Krygowski

I read somewhere that some 450 USians die annually from falling out of
bed. It is apparent that "bed Helmets" or at least safety belts
should be required.

Why don't our leaders do something to stop this carnage!
--
cheers,

John B.



How many times will you post that? I’m tired of explaining to you about
universe of discourse. What percentage of those sleeping in beds die from
falling out of bed?

Let me give you a hint. 300 or so million Americans sleep in beds. 450
die falling out of them. The math is not complicated.

700 or so die cycling. How many cycle? See where I’m going with this? I
guess not..l

--
duane

That's the engineer in John who cannot understand that these sorts of injuries are measured in man/hours per fatality.

OH! This must be something new. Bicycle deaths or falling out of bead,
in man hours.See the following
https://injuryfacts.nsc.org/home-and...icycle-deaths/
https://www.governing.com/gov-data/t...tate-data.html
https://www.cdc.gov/motorvehiclesafe...cle/index.html
https://www.nhtsa.gov/road-safety/bicycle-safety

I can provide you with the bed statistics, NOT showing man hours if
you wish.


For bicycling the numbers are a little vague but about a fifth of the population cycles. Finding an average time of ride would be extremely difficult since most of these are slow speed rides not more than an hour whereas you or I might ride for 8 hours on a century.

But as a guess let's put the number of man-hours of riding at about 1/5 of 320,000,000 at approximately 100 Million hours per year. This is an average cycling time of 1.5 hours PER YEAR for 64 Million people. This is purposely underestimated to give worst case scenarios concerning fatalities.

While we have a wide variation in fatalities it all seems to revolved around approximately 800 fatalities per year. Or one fatalities per 96 million hours.

EVERYONE sleeps approximately 6 hours a day as a minimum. That means that we're looking at about one fatality per 2 billion hours of participation assuming 400 yearly fatalities from falling out of bed. This makes bicycle only 20 times as dangerous as falling out of bed.

Now, any increase in the number of bicycling hours per year makes it appear correspondingly safer.

Now that is an example of real data
"numbers are a little vague but about a fifth of the population
cycles"
"as a guess let's put the number of man-hours of riding at about 1/5
of 320,000,000 at approximately 100 Million hours per year"

A "little vague" divided by a "guess" equals ?
--
cheers,

John B.

On Sun, 14 Jul 2019 03:08:09 -0000 (UTC), news18
wrote:

On Sat, 13 Jul 2019 17:13:54 -0700, Tom Kunich wrote:


For bicycling the numbers are a little vague but about a fifth of the
population cycles. Finding an average time of ride would be extremely
difficult since most of these are slow speed rides not more than an hour
whereas you or I might ride for 8 hours on a century.

You and anyone who posts on this usenet are NOT the typical bicycle rider.
Reader's Digest will tell you that it is kids on basic bicycles.

I have no idea of the U.S. cycling scene but in Thailand you are
certainly correct. For example, early in the morning, in my
neighborhood, I will see, perhaps, 10 regular single speed "ladies"
bikes parked along the lane and their riders, almost always women,
buying the days groceries. I have never seen a "road bike" i.e. multi
speed, drop bars, etc., or a Mountain Bike, i.e., multi speed,
suspension, etc. Never! And I've lived in that neighborhood for 30
years.
--
cheers,

John B.

On Sun, 14 Jul 2019 03:03:45 -0000 (UTC), news18
wrote:

On Sat, 13 Jul 2019 23:13:07 +0000, Duane wrote:

John B. wrote:

I read somewhere that some 450 USians die annually from falling out of
bed. It is apparent that "bed Helmets" or at least safety belts should
be required.

Why don't our leaders do something to stop this carnage!
--
cheers,

John B.



How many times will you post that? I’m tired of explaining to you about
universe of discourse. What percentage of those sleeping in beds die
from falling out of bed?

Let me give you a hint. 300 or so million Americans sleep in beds. 450
die falling out of them. The math is not complicated.

Do you have any age factor for this figure?
Based on recent personally known "injuries from falling out of bed" both
were very elderly people and the real danger was the long time until they
were discvered/found and given care.


700 or so die cycling. How many cycle? See where I’m going with this?
I guess not..l

Yes, often the figure do not have any depth of information to arrive a
woth while responses. E.g. in this country, wearing a helmet can increase
chances of death from heat stroke in certain places and times.

You are correct and no there isn't usually any explanatory
information.

It is difficult to get any emotion stirred up by stating that Mr. R.A.
Jones died in a fall from his bed. Mr. Jones was 94 years old and in
recent months had grown so feeble that he was no longer able to tie
his shoe laces. He is survived by Mrs. Irene Hones, his wife of 70
years and a son, William, now serving 1 - 2 years for the theft of
bicycles and a daughter, Augustine, recently divorced from her 3rd
husband...

You need to use strong language and few details, after all "The good
news about bad news - it sells".

Rather like a lot of the bicycle data :-)
--
cheers,

John B.

On Friday, July 12, 2019 at 10:17:31 PM UTC+1, Tom Kunich wrote:

Most of my rides are demanding and nothing is worse than wearing cotton and drenching it with sweat. So I always wear bicycle specific clothing.

Lycra *makes* me sweat. I like cotton because it is cool.

But what a person wears on a bike is their business and not mine so I cannot understand why anyone would disparage the clothing of another.

Exactly. Too many block fuhrers around.

Andre Jute
To the devil in a handcart, according to taste