A Cycling & bikes forum. CycleBanter.com

Go Back   Home » CycleBanter.com forum » rec.bicycles » Techniques
Site Map Home Register Authors List Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read Web Partners

Speed cameras to be implemented and red light cameras to be removed



 
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old October 16th 13, 04:11 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Nate Nagel[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,872
Default Speed cameras to be implemented and red light cameras to be removed

On 10/15/2013 08:44 PM, Radey Shouman wrote:
Frank Krygowski writes:

On Monday, October 14, 2013 10:10:27 PM UTC-4, Nate Nagel wrote:

You're in the UK... don't know how it is there, but here things are
definitely predatory. Especially with the red light cameras, the yellow
intervals are often well short of the ITE guideline, giving you a choice
between panic stopping (and risking a rear-ender from the guy behind you
who's not expecting you to do so) and making an involuntary donation to
the highway fund.

Fortunately at least some states (VA for one) are recognizing this and
taking steps to keep the camera companies in check. (Oh, yeah, the
cameras are generally operated by private, for-profit firms.)


I happened to be browsing through some Ohio traffic laws. I found
that Ohio has a law that states that if a red light camera is
installed, the yellow light phase has to be exceed the normal
(standard) yellow time by one second. That seems fair to me.


That surely smells like a reaction to abuse, whether in Ohio or elsewhere.


Ohio is notorious for abuse of traffic enforcement in general (New Rome,
Linndale etc.) Don't know about RLCs in particular but there are still
periodic news "exposés" in many places around the country of a reporter
"discovering" that the yellow light timing isn't set to ITE guidelines
even when a state law explicitly states that such must be evaluated
before any RLC can be commissioned at an intersection.

And yes, Ohio is trying to clean up its act somewhat as for example the
village of New Rome was actually unincorporated (by the state, not by
consensus of the residents) about 10 years ago primarily due to its
abuses of traffic enforcement - a good portion of the town's budget was
coming from traffic tickets, and a large portion of said budget funded
the village's large (relative to population) police department... Too
little too late, as there's many of us who still remember the "old" Ohio
and just plain don't trust cops, or that attitudes really have changed.
But maybe in another 20 years things will be different.


And I don't have a problem with a private firm makes some money by
enforcing traffic laws. We can't afford to station cops at every red
light, or have radar patrols on every road, so we now have near-zero
enforcement, with predictable results: people who think it's their
constitutional right to disobey the laws.


Private law enforcement is a *huge* conflict of interest. If there have
to be speed cameras, they should be run by a government, and someone
should hold that government's feet to the fire to prevent
revenue-seeking rule changes.


Even worse, many of the private companies rather than getting a flat fee
per camera per day, are actually paid *per violation.*

nate

--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel
Ads
  #2  
Old October 16th 13, 04:29 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Frank Krygowski[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 7,511
Default Speed cameras to be implemented and red light cameras to be removed

On Wednesday, October 16, 2013 11:11:01 AM UTC-4, Nate Nagel wrote:

And yes, Ohio is trying to clean up its act somewhat as for example the
village of New Rome was actually unincorporated (by the state, not by
consensus of the residents) about 10 years ago primarily due to its
abuses of traffic enforcement - a good portion of the town's budget was
coming from traffic tickets, and a large portion of said budget funded
the village's large (relative to population) police department... Too
little too late, as there's many of us who still remember the "old" Ohio
and just plain don't trust cops, or that attitudes really have changed.


Well, as a person who bikes and walks around here, I'm just fine with drivers who say "I don't trust the cops; so I'm going to just drive the speed limit, and stop for the red lights." Also for the drivers who say "I'm going to avoid that town."

- Frank Krygowski
  #3  
Old October 16th 13, 06:05 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Nate Nagel[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,872
Default Speed cameras to be implemented and red light cameras to be removed

On 10/16/2013 11:29 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Wednesday, October 16, 2013 11:11:01 AM UTC-4, Nate Nagel wrote:

And yes, Ohio is trying to clean up its act somewhat as for example
the village of New Rome was actually unincorporated (by the state,
not by consensus of the residents) about 10 years ago primarily due
to its abuses of traffic enforcement - a good portion of the town's
budget was coming from traffic tickets, and a large portion of said
budget funded the village's large (relative to population) police
department... Too little too late, as there's many of us who still
remember the "old" Ohio and just plain don't trust cops, or that
attitudes really have changed.


Well, as a person who bikes and walks around here, I'm just fine with
drivers who say "I don't trust the cops; so I'm going to just drive
the speed limit, and stop for the red lights." Also for the drivers
who say "I'm going to avoid that town."


So you really don't care whether or not someone was driving unsafely or
even breaking the law or not, you just want to stick it to drivers. Oh,
wait, I've known that for years. Move to New Rome, you'd fit right in.
Some of us actually believe in fairness, laws that make sense, and
reasonable enforcement however.

nate


--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel
  #4  
Old October 16th 13, 08:06 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Frank Krygowski[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 7,511
Default Speed cameras to be implemented and red light cameras to be removed

On Wednesday, October 16, 2013 1:05:29 PM UTC-4, Nate Nagel wrote:
On 10/16/2013 11:29 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:

Well, as a person who bikes and walks around here, I'm just fine with
drivers who say "I don't trust the cops; so I'm going to just drive
the speed limit, and stop for the red lights." Also for the drivers
who say "I'm going to avoid that town."



So you really don't care whether or not someone was driving unsafely or
even breaking the law or not, you just want to stick it to drivers.


Oh, please! First, I'm just saying that motorists should obey the laws (even though I realize that's a radical idea in some circles). Why should violations of traffic laws be treated more leniently than violations of shoplifting laws, industrial pollution laws, or other laws?

Second, nobody is "sticking it to drivers." We've already made the world extremely convenient for motorists in every possible way; and in doing so, we've made it quite inconvenient for those _not_ driving motor vehicles. For motorist convenience, my otherwise walkable village was cut in half by a 5 lane road that looks more like a freeway than anything else, and pedestrian crossings are far apart, with long waits for a "Walk" sign. And that's far from unusual! Grocery stores that used to be within neighborhoods have all been moved miles away, on "main roads" so there would be easy access for motorists and plenty of parking. Pedestrians aren't even given sidewalks in most places where roads are widened for motorists.

Motorists are hardly a persecuted segment of society. The idea that expecting obedience to laws is persecution, only illustrates how out of control motorist privilege has gotten.

- Frank Krygowski


Oh,

wait, I've known that for years. Move to New Rome, you'd fit right in.

Some of us actually believe in fairness, laws that make sense, and

reasonable enforcement however.



nate





--

replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.

http://members.cox.net/njnagel

  #5  
Old October 16th 13, 08:44 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Nate Nagel[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,872
Default Speed cameras to be implemented and red light cameras to be removed

On 10/16/2013 03:06 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Wednesday, October 16, 2013 1:05:29 PM UTC-4, Nate Nagel wrote:
On 10/16/2013 11:29 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:

Well, as a person who bikes and walks around here, I'm just fine
with drivers who say "I don't trust the cops; so I'm going to
just drive the speed limit, and stop for the red lights." Also
for the drivers who say "I'm going to avoid that town."



So you really don't care whether or not someone was driving
unsafely or even breaking the law or not, you just want to stick it
to drivers.


Oh, please! First, I'm just saying that motorists should obey the
laws (even though I realize that's a radical idea in some circles).


But those enforcing the laws are exempt from them?

That's what we're talking about here - ILLEGAL ACTIONS on the part of
municipalities to raise revenue at the expense of motorists, by trapping
them into breaking the law. Sure, if a light immediately turns from
green to red with no yellow, and I cross the stop bar after the light
turns red because I have no hope of stopping, and the law says that that
is illegal, well, then I'm a criminal. But would you really say that I
was a bad person or scofflaw in that situation? Do I *deserve* a ticket
for that?

Or is this one of those four legs good two legs better kind of things?

nate


--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel
  #6  
Old October 16th 13, 10:29 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Dan O
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 6,098
Default Speed cameras to be implemented and red light cameras to be removed

On Wednesday, October 16, 2013 12:44:56 PM UTC-7, Nate Nagel wrote:
On 10/16/2013 03:06 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Wednesday, October 16, 2013 1:05:29 PM UTC-4, Nate Nagel wrote:
On 10/16/2013 11:29 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:


Well, as a person who bikes and walks around here, I'm just fine
with drivers who say "I don't trust the cops; so I'm going to
just drive the speed limit, and stop for the red lights." Also
for the drivers who say "I'm going to avoid that town."

So you really don't care whether or not someone was driving
unsafely or even breaking the law or not, you just want to stick it
to drivers.


Oh, please! First, I'm just saying that motorists should obey the
laws (even though I realize that's a radical idea in some circles).


But those enforcing the laws are exempt from them?

That's what we're talking about here - ILLEGAL ACTIONS on the part of
municipalities to raise revenue at the expense of motorists, by trapping
them into breaking the law. Sure, if a light immediately turns from
green to red with no yellow, and I cross the stop bar after the light
turns red because I have no hope of stopping, and the law says that that
is illegal, well, then I'm a criminal.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Due_process

But would you really say that I
was a bad person or scofflaw in that situation?


I'd have to recuse myself ;-)

Do I *deserve* a ticket
for that?


As in "cyclists need to obey the &^%$#@* law, period"?


Or is this one of those four legs good two legs better kind of things?


Well, if by legs you mean wheels, a bicyclist *would* seem
much less likely to be cited in your hypothetical scenario.
  #7  
Old October 17th 13, 12:04 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Nate Nagel[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,872
Default Speed cameras to be implemented and red light cameras to be removed

On 10/16/2013 05:29 PM, Dan O wrote:
On Wednesday, October 16, 2013 12:44:56 PM UTC-7, Nate Nagel wrote:
On 10/16/2013 03:06 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Wednesday, October 16, 2013 1:05:29 PM UTC-4, Nate Nagel wrote:
On 10/16/2013 11:29 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:


Well, as a person who bikes and walks around here, I'm just fine
with drivers who say "I don't trust the cops; so I'm going to
just drive the speed limit, and stop for the red lights." Also
for the drivers who say "I'm going to avoid that town."

So you really don't care whether or not someone was driving
unsafely or even breaking the law or not, you just want to stick it
to drivers.

Oh, please! First, I'm just saying that motorists should obey the
laws (even though I realize that's a radical idea in some circles).


But those enforcing the laws are exempt from them?

That's what we're talking about here - ILLEGAL ACTIONS on the part of
municipalities to raise revenue at the expense of motorists, by trapping
them into breaking the law. Sure, if a light immediately turns from
green to red with no yellow, and I cross the stop bar after the light
turns red because I have no hope of stopping, and the law says that that
is illegal, well, then I'm a criminal.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Due_process


Traffic tickets, and especially ones given by automated cameras, are
literally almost completely exempt from due process. You get a ticket,
you have no realistic recourse. That's how the system perpetuates
itself - you might have received a $300 ticket you didn't deserve, but
it'll cost you $1000 or more and a day or two off work to fight it.


But would you really say that I
was a bad person or scofflaw in that situation?


I'd have to recuse myself ;-)

Do I *deserve* a ticket
for that?


As in "cyclists need to obey the &^%$#@* law, period"?


It'd be better if *everyone* obeyed the law.

Sadly, as bad as motorists are in this respect, when you get to
automated enforcement, the enforcers are generally *less* inclined to
obey the law.


Or is this one of those four legs good two legs better kind of things?


Well, if by legs you mean wheels, a bicyclist *would* seem
much less likely to be cited in your hypothetical scenario.


True, not enough of a laser cross-section.

I wonder if they detect motorcycles? Problem with the plan I'm forming
is that the areas where detection is most rampant around here also tend
to have bombed-out, third world type roads...

nate


--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel
  #8  
Old October 17th 13, 01:13 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Frank Krygowski[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 7,511
Default Speed cameras to be implemented and red light cameras to be removed

On Wednesday, October 16, 2013 3:44:56 PM UTC-4, Nate Nagel wrote:
On 10/16/2013 03:06 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:

Oh, please! First, I'm just saying that motorists should obey the
laws (even though I realize that's a radical idea in some circles).


But those enforcing the laws are exempt from them?

That's what we're talking about here - ILLEGAL ACTIONS on the part of
municipalities to raise revenue at the expense of motorists, by trapping
them into breaking the law.


I'm not in favor of municipalities or camera companies breaking the law. But I am in favor of proper and legal use of these traffic cameras. It shouldn't be hard to use them legally.

If you want to complain _only_ about illegal uses, then we're in very substantial agreement.

- Frank Krygowski
  #9  
Old October 17th 13, 01:38 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Nate Nagel[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,872
Default Speed cameras to be implemented and red light cameras to be removed

On 10/16/2013 08:09 PM, Phil W Lee wrote:
Nate Nagel considered Wed, 16 Oct 2013 15:44:56
-0400 the perfect time to write:

On 10/16/2013 03:06 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Wednesday, October 16, 2013 1:05:29 PM UTC-4, Nate Nagel wrote:
On 10/16/2013 11:29 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:

Well, as a person who bikes and walks around here, I'm just fine
with drivers who say "I don't trust the cops; so I'm going to
just drive the speed limit, and stop for the red lights." Also
for the drivers who say "I'm going to avoid that town."


So you really don't care whether or not someone was driving
unsafely or even breaking the law or not, you just want to stick it
to drivers.

Oh, please! First, I'm just saying that motorists should obey the
laws (even though I realize that's a radical idea in some circles).


But those enforcing the laws are exempt from them?


I don't know which bit of your mind that came from, but it wasn't
stated in anything you're replying to.

That's what we're talking about here - ILLEGAL ACTIONS on the part of
municipalities to raise revenue at the expense of motorists, by trapping
them into breaking the law.


Seems that the most that even the "poor persecuted motorists" can come
up with is an occasional example of a light that has it's calibration
out by a few percent.


Occasional? They're nearly universally like that.

And when they get reported, they get fixed.


You actually believe that? How cute. That one light might get fixed,
then quietly the camera is taken down and moved to a different "problem"
intersection. (where the actual problem is a short yellow.)


Sure, if a light immediately turns from
green to red with no yellow, and I cross the stop bar after the light
turns red because I have no hope of stopping, and the law says that that
is illegal, well, then I'm a criminal. But would you really say that I
was a bad person or scofflaw in that situation? Do I *deserve* a ticket
for that?


Of course not, and you know as well as I do that if you were given one
in those circumstances you'd appeal it and it would be thrown out -
and if the case was that extreme, probably the contractor that fixed
the lights to generate illegal tickets fined, sacked or maybe even
imprisoned as well, for fraud.


How am I going to appeal an automated ticket? (seriously, look it up,
it's really difficult and expensive to do - more expensive than just
paying the ticket. This is how the corrupt system stays functional.
It's easier to just give in than fight.)


Or is this one of those four legs good two legs better kind of things?

For me, it's one of those illegal and dangerous bad, legal and safe
good, kind of things.


But you're OK with the government breaking the laws that they are
supposedly bound to? That to me is worse than an individual

And as Frank says, things have already gone way past reasonable in
pandering to motorists, even without colluding with their illegal
behaviour.


Ah, you're not from around here are you.

Seriously, here in the US, traffic law is NOT about safety. It's about
making money. It's *spun* as being for safety, but most enforcement
does SFA towards actually making the roads safer. Motorists are not
pandered to, far from it. It's become a game of motorists vs. cops, really.

nate

--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel
  #10  
Old October 17th 13, 05:02 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Frank Krygowski[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 7,511
Default Speed cameras to be implemented and red light cameras to be removed

On Wednesday, October 16, 2013 8:38:57 PM UTC-4, Nate Nagel wrote:

Seriously, here in the US, traffic law is NOT about safety. It's about
making money. It's *spun* as being for safety, but most enforcement
does SFA towards actually making the roads safer. Motorists are not
pandered to, far from it. It's become a game of motorists vs. cops, really.


How odd. I've had only two speeding tickets in my entire life, and one was in Canada.

If you really feel so persecuted, Nate (despite all the shopping plazas designed only for motorists, the shifting of almost all commerce away from walking distances, the free car storage on public property, the lack of sidewalks in so much commercial development, etc.) you might consider giving up the car. Ride a bike instead. That'll show 'em!

- Frank Krygowski
 




Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Speed cameras to be implemented and red light cameras to be removed Jay Beattie Techniques 36 October 20th 13 03:26 AM
Speed cameras to be implemented and red light cameras to be removed AMuzi Techniques 2 October 16th 13 06:28 PM
Speed Cameras vs. Red Light Cameras His Highness the TibetanMonkey, the Beach Cruiser Philosopher[_2_] UK 0 April 27th 11 02:06 PM
Red light cameras? Frank Krygowski[_2_] General 81 April 26th 11 01:45 AM
Red light cameras? Frank Krygowski[_2_] Techniques 82 April 26th 11 01:45 AM


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 06:48 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2004-2024 CycleBanter.com.
The comments are property of their posters.