Where "facilities" end

I think many of us believe that an issue with many existing cycle
"facilities" run out just where we might actually need them.

I'm of the opinion that many "facilities" (if not all) are a waste anyway
and that better training of all road users is the best solution.

However, we are where we are and our political masters believe that we want
cycle facilities. That being the case how do we provide a roundabout
facility, for instance? If we just get a painted lane around the outside I
can see many (not all) motorists just charging through even if a cyclist is
present. So, what do we want?

Don't just restrict yourselves to roundabouts.

"Graham Harrison" writes:

However, we are where we are and our political masters believe that we
want cycle facilities. That being the case how do we provide a
roundabout facility, for instance? If we just get a painted lane
around the outside I can see many (not all) motorists just charging
through even if a cyclist is present. So, what do we want?

On the assumption that the facilities must be cheap, for little more
than the cost of the paint and time spent painting, we could have
bicycle symbols painted in the middle of the lane on perfectly ordinary
bits of carriageway. This would encourage cyclists to use the lane
sensibly instead of gutter-hugging, and would remind other road users
that they have a right to be there.


-dan

On Mon, 28 Sep 2009 20:53:22 +0100, Graham Harrison couldnae haud thur
wheesht ony mair an' gied us this:

I think many of us believe that an issue with many existing cycle
"facilities" run out just where we might actually need them.

I'm of the opinion that many "facilities" (if not all) are a waste
anyway and that better training of all road users is the best solution.

However, we are where we are and our political masters believe that we
want cycle facilities. That being the case how do we provide a
roundabout facility, for instance? If we just get a painted lane
around the outside I can see many (not all) motorists just charging
through even if a cyclist is present. So, what do we want?

Don't just restrict yourselves to roundabouts.

I feel that better training for all road users is the way to go rather
than segregated cycle lanes.

However, one idea might be to have an extra green traffic light for
cyclists to commence through a junction several (say 8) seconds before
the main green, giving them a head start before the motorised traffic
moves. Or, to save money on new lights, flashing main red instead; thus
only requiring a change of program logic.

Roundabouts: I'd rather they didn't have left-lane filtering because this
necessitates moving into the right lane to go straight, which is awkward
for cyclists when traffic is busy.

Fill in the potholes. I hate them. :-)

Daniel Barlow wrote:
"Graham Harrison" writes:

However, we are where we are and our political masters believe that we
want cycle facilities. That being the case how do we provide a
roundabout facility, for instance? If we just get a painted lane
around the outside I can see many (not all) motorists just charging
through even if a cyclist is present. So, what do we want?

On the assumption that the facilities must be cheap, for little more
than the cost of the paint and time spent painting, we could have
bicycle symbols painted in the middle of the lane on perfectly ordinary
bits of carriageway. This would encourage cyclists to use the lane
sensibly instead of gutter-hugging, and would remind other road users
that they have a right to be there.


-dan

The line painting at roundabouts has proved to be more dangerous than no
paint at all. It encourages cyclists to remove themselves from the lines
of sight of road users looking at the traffic in the middle, the traffic
coming from the entrance/exit to their right and the entrance/exit to
the left.
We look in straight lines, not round corners.
We even drive/cycle in straight lines most of the time (hopefully)
No amount of 'beware, thar be cyclists' signs at roundabouts will stop
people looking for the obvious signs of a hazard.

Anyway, for every one lot of masters, another lot want something
different and another lot will want nothing at all.
London-wide cycle-grid super highway thingies - if it's all right with
everyone else who has them running through their boroughs. Blue paint is
the answer there, it seems.

The idea of painting more bikes n the road isn't such a bad idea - there
aren't usually enough on cycle-only paths to start with - just to remind
the dog emptiers and joggers and buggy-pushers (the last two are usually
found on cycle paths as the pavement is so crap).

--

Come to Dave & Boris - your cycle security experts.

Keitht KeithT writes:

The line painting at roundabouts has proved to be more dangerous than
no paint at all. It encourages cyclists to remove themselves from the
lines of sight of road users looking at the traffic in the middle, the
traffic coming from the entrance/exit to their right and the
entrance/exit to the left.

For the avoidance of doubt: I agree with you completely on this. I
cannot think of a general way to make big roundabouts safer for
cyclists, except perhaps by hatching areas of the roadway to turn them
into what are effectively small roundabouts and thus reducing the speeds
that drivers travel on them.


-dan

Graham Harrison wrote:

The road, the whole road and nothing but the road.

--
Andy Morris

AndyAtjinkasDotfreeserve.co.uk

On Mon, 28 Sep 2009 21:48:52 +0100, Daniel Barlow
wrote:

Keitht KeithT writes:

The line painting at roundabouts has proved to be more dangerous than
no paint at all. It encourages cyclists to remove themselves from the
lines of sight of road users looking at the traffic in the middle, the
traffic coming from the entrance/exit to their right and the
entrance/exit to the left.

For the avoidance of doubt: I agree with you completely on this. I
cannot think of a general way to make big roundabouts safer for
cyclists, except perhaps by hatching areas of the roadway to turn them
into what are effectively small roundabouts and thus reducing the speeds
that drivers travel on them.


-dan

I think you should do as the Highway Code advises:
If you are uncomfortable riding round the outside of the roundabout -
carefully indicating your intentions, you should get off and walk
round. Better be safe than sorry.

--

British Medical Association (BMA)
View on helmets:

Several studies provided solid scientific evidence that bicycle helmets
protect against head, brain, severe brain and facial injuries,
as well as death, as a result of cycling accidents

On 2009-09-28, Graham Harrison wrote:
I think many of us believe that an issue with many existing cycle
"facilities" run out just where we might actually need them.

I'm of the opinion that many "facilities" (if not all) are a waste anyway
and that better training of all road users is the best solution.

However, we are where we are and our political masters believe that we want
cycle facilities. That being the case how do we provide a roundabout
facility, for instance?

The Dutch system is typically a cycle lane across each of the roads into
the roundabout.

Sometimes you get priority over the cars, sometimes they get priority
over you, sometimes you have to press a button and wait for a little
traffic light. It all depends where you are.

Here's one: 52.12853258312998, 4.654265195076732

Paste that into Google maps and zoom right in on the satellite view. The
orange bits are the cycle lanes. In this case, probably because it's
near a town centre, cyclists have right of way because the little white
triangles are painted across the paths of the car lanes. But it isn't
always like that. Out on sort of ring-road junction, you'd get lights
and have to wait. Other places you just give way to the cars.

Here's one where give way:

52.71286238170493, 5.867956727688579

You can see the cycle lane is off-road, some way from the roundabout,
but cyclists give way to cars.

If we just get a painted lane around the outside I
can see many (not all) motorists just charging through even if a cyclist is
present. So, what do we want?

Don't just restrict yourselves to roundabouts.

Clear priorities, like they have in NL with a defined right of way for
everyone. No unnecessary road markings or furniture, and absolutely no
"traffic calming".

I know some people favour removing all road paint and having a
Calcutta-style free-for-all, but I just think that's too stressful for
everyone.

Daniel Barlow wrote:
For the avoidance of doubt: I agree with you completely on
this. I
cannot think of a general way to make big roundabouts safer
for
cyclists, except perhaps by hatching areas of the roadway to
turn them
into what are effectively small roundabouts and thus
reducing the speeds
that drivers travel on them.

In some circumstances (where the roundabout is big and often
grid-locked anyway) traffic lights can help a lot to give
cyclists some space on roundabouts.

I cycle quite a long way around on my commute to work to avoid
a roundabout on the intersection of two A roads. On that one
drivers simply go on to and round it too fast. It would help
if there were a sensible speed-limit imposed, but I'm not
prepared to be one of the deaths which will no doubt be needed
before the limit gets reduced so I'll carry on avoiding it
altogether for the time being.

On 2009-09-29, Jim wrote:
Daniel Barlow wrote:
For the avoidance of doubt: I agree with you completely on
this. I
cannot think of a general way to make big roundabouts safer
for
cyclists, except perhaps by hatching areas of the roadway to
turn them
into what are effectively small roundabouts and thus
reducing the speeds
that drivers travel on them.

In some circumstances (where the roundabout is big and often
grid-locked anyway) traffic lights can help a lot to give
cyclists some space on roundabouts.

I cycle quite a long way around on my commute to work to avoid
a roundabout on the intersection of two A roads. On that one
drivers simply go on to and round it too fast. It would help
if there were a sensible speed-limit imposed, but I'm not
prepared to be one of the deaths which will no doubt be needed
before the limit gets reduced so I'll carry on avoiding it
altogether for the time being.

Another factor is how tight the roundabout is. On some the roads coming
in are too wide and the "hub" in the middle too small. This means cars
straight-line it and it's difficult to get in without feeling you're
going to get run over by traffic from the right that hasn't even entered
the roundabout yet.

Really you should only be worrying about the cars _on_ the roundabout
(otherwise it's a mini-roundabout, which only work if speeds are low).