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"Rigid Class System in Europe" Bob Roll Comments



 
 
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  #1  
Old August 16th 06, 08:56 PM posted to rec.bicycles.racing
steve
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Posts: 87
Default "Rigid Class System in Europe" Bob Roll Comments

Im hoping some of our European friends will comment here. I know the US is
famous for class mobility, but I was under the impression that class
immobility was a thing of the past even in Europe... especially after the
two world wars shook up the social structure. Bob obviously disagrees..and
he's been there, which gives him a big advantage over me (a "dumbass", no
doubt).

What do our European friends think? Rigid class structure and social
pressure to stay put? Or is social mobility now the norm?

thanks,
steve
--
"The accused will now make a bogus statement."
James Joyce
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  #2  
Old August 16th 06, 09:18 PM posted to rec.bicycles.racing
Davey Crockett
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Posts: 12
Default "Rigid Class System in Europe" Bob Roll Comments

On Wed, 16 Aug 2006 19:56:22 GMT, "steve" a écrit :

Im hoping some of our European friends will comment here. I know the US is
famous for class mobility, but I was under the impression that class
immobility was a thing of the past even in Europe... especially after the
two world wars shook up the social structure. Bob obviously disagrees..and
he's been there, which gives him a big advantage over me (a "dumbass", no
doubt).

What do our European friends think? Rigid class structure and social
pressure to stay put? Or is social mobility now the norm?

thanks,
steve


Davey thinks Roll is an uncouth, ignorant, semi literate slob with an
IQ somewhere around 4O and who has difficulty stringing more than two
words together to form a coherent sentence and who definitely isn't
qualified to comment on anything more profound than what he had for
breakfast.

There Roll, it's payback time

Remember shouting your usual garbage at an older rider in the
Place Massena in July 1988?

  #3  
Old August 16th 06, 09:44 PM posted to rec.bicycles.racing
Revtom
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Posts: 30
Default "Rigid Class System in Europe" Bob Roll Comments

The rigid class system in the US is rarely spoken of, and if one does
mention it, the neo-cons immediately cry out "class warfare!!". They
don't want any attention drawn to the rapidly disappearing middle class
of the US. There are some slight chances for inter-caste mobility both
in Europe and the US - either with a lucky, huge lottery win, or as in
some cases, those lucky enough to be in the right place at the right
time during the internet boom. In any case, if you aren't already
wealthy, you've missed out.
Revtom

steve wrote:
Im hoping some of our European friends will comment here. I know the US is
famous for class mobility, but I was under the impression that class
immobility was a thing of the past even in Europe... especially after the
two world wars shook up the social structure. Bob obviously disagrees..and
he's been there, which gives him a big advantage over me (a "dumbass", no
doubt).

What do our European friends think? Rigid class structure and social
pressure to stay put? Or is social mobility now the norm?

thanks,
steve
--
"The accused will now make a bogus statement."
James Joyce


  #4  
Old August 16th 06, 09:50 PM posted to rec.bicycles.racing
[email protected]
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Posts: 3,092
Default "Rigid Class System in Europe" Bob Roll Comments

steve wrote:
Im hoping some of our European friends will comment here. I know the US is
famous for class mobility, but I was under the impression that class
immobility was a thing of the past even in Europe... especially after the
two world wars shook up the social structure. Bob obviously disagrees..and
he's been there, which gives him a big advantage over me (a "dumbass", no
doubt).

What do our European friends think? Rigid class structure and social
pressure to stay put? Or is social mobility now the norm?


Actually, the US is not as class-mobile as it is famous for, depending
on how you define class. The US is (or should be) famous for the
_appearance_ of mobility because class is more linked to income
than strict heredity, but actual measures of income mobility from
generation to generation often show that the US is _less_ income-mobile
than a number of European countries. This is all speaking about
the postwar era.

Here's a recent article that suggests Brits define class more by birth
than by income:
http://www.economist.com/world/brita...ory_id=7289005

(FWIW, as an American, the class jape in the headline about
"did they buy their own furniture" was quite inexplicable. I had to
read the article to find out that the opposite is inheriting one's
furniture, from the previous Lord of Woolshirt-Dundersnipe, presumably.
My American co-worker who has lived in Britain figured it out
immediately, though.)

A bunch of Times poll results for the US (which shows that most
Amis think it's easier to move up in the US than Europe):
http://www.nytimes.com/packages/html.../index_04.html

And a comparison of income-mobility among countries, which
suggests the opposite:
http://www.americanprogress.org/site...8OVF&b=1579981

Unfortunately, none of these really studied whether bike racers
are definitively working-class no matter how much they make,
which is sort of the substance of your question, I guess.

Ben

  #5  
Old August 16th 06, 09:50 PM posted to rec.bicycles.racing
[email protected]
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Posts: 601
Default "Rigid Class System in Europe" Bob Roll Comments


steve wrote:
Im hoping some of our European friends will comment here. I know the US is
famous for class mobility, but I was under the impression that class
immobility was a thing of the past even in Europe... especially after the
two world wars shook up the social structure. Bob obviously disagrees..and
he's been there, which gives him a big advantage over me (a "dumbass", no
doubt).

What do our European friends think? Rigid class structure and social
pressure to stay put? Or is social mobility now the norm?

thanks,
steve


There is certainly a great degree of social mobility, but not on the
scale found in the US. There are ethnic issues related to this as well.
Nationality is based on ethnicity (despite what folks wish to believe)
which makes integration of "foreigners" difficult. This does not help
the mobility situation. The so-called pro-worker laws that make it hard
to fire people reinforces the old-boy networks where people get jobs
from people they know, or when to some exclusive school with. This of
course happens in the US too, but at least in the US a kid from a
trailer park or the projects who does well in school has a chance of
getting a good job where they can prove their worth. In Europe hiring
"unkowns" like this can be too risky as they can't be fired if they
turn out to be flakes, so people like that have a hard time getting
jobs. This is the real problem with mobility there.

Joseph

(American guy who has lived in NY, Chicago, LA, France, Switzerland,
and Norway. Also lots of travelling in Europe and US.)

  #6  
Old August 16th 06, 09:55 PM posted to rec.bicycles.racing
[email protected]
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Posts: 249
Default "Rigid Class System in Europe" Bob Roll Comments


steve wrote:
Im hoping some of our European friends will comment here. I know the US is
famous for class mobility, but I was under the impression that class
immobility was a thing of the past even in Europe... especially after the
two world wars shook up the social structure. Bob obviously disagrees..and
he's been there, which gives him a big advantage over me (a "dumbass", no
doubt).

What do our European friends think? Rigid class structure and social
pressure to stay put? Or is social mobility now the norm?

thanks,
steve
--
"The accused will now make a bogus statement."
James Joyce


Is this in response to the usual stereotype that bicycle racing success
serves to rescue destitute European men from dismal futures slaving
away in coal mines? People have been reading too many back-issues of
Winning Magazine again. Ergo, Dope or grab a pick-axe.

  #7  
Old August 16th 06, 10:21 PM posted to rec.bicycles.racing
Jack Maars
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Posts: 28
Default "Rigid Class System in Europe" Bob Roll Comments


wrote in message
ups.com...


Is this in response to the usual stereotype that bicycle racing success
serves to rescue destitute European men from dismal futures slaving
away in coal mines? People have been reading too many back-issues of
Winning Magazine again. Ergo, Dope or grab a pick-axe.


Yea, now it's Dope or answer the phone in a call center.


  #8  
Old August 16th 06, 10:25 PM posted to rec.bicycles.racing
Tom Kunich
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Posts: 6,456
Default "Rigid Class System in Europe" Bob Roll Comments

"Revtom" wrote in message
oups.com...
The rigid class system in the US is rarely spoken of, and if one does
mention it, the neo-cons immediately cry out "class warfare!!". They
don't want any attention drawn to the rapidly disappearing middle class
of the US.


See? I told you that idiots are everywhere.

Why imagine the fright Europeans have when they discover that the median
income for the "lower" classes in a place where wages are very low - Miami -
are $35K/year.

What's more, 95% of ALL taxes are paid by the upper half of all income
earners.

Did you know that you can own your own home and have a new car and be on
welfare?

This is the class system that people in the United States are decrying.
Moreover, EVERY person in the USA can move up to the limits of their ability
if they wish. In Europe that simply isn't the case as you can discover
simply by talking to any factory worker.

Too bad that revtom doesn't understand what he doesn't understand.


  #9  
Old August 16th 06, 10:28 PM posted to rec.bicycles.racing
Tom Kunich
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 6,456
Default "Rigid Class System in Europe" Bob Roll Comments

wrote in message
ups.com...

steve wrote:
Im hoping some of our European friends will comment here. I know the US
is
famous for class mobility, but I was under the impression that class
immobility was a thing of the past even in Europe... especially after the
two world wars shook up the social structure. Bob obviously
disagrees..and
he's been there, which gives him a big advantage over me (a "dumbass", no
doubt).

What do our European friends think? Rigid class structure and social
pressure to stay put? Or is social mobility now the norm?


There is certainly a great degree of social mobility, but not on the
scale found in the US. There are ethnic issues related to this as well.
Nationality is based on ethnicity (despite what folks wish to believe)
which makes integration of "foreigners" difficult. This does not help
the mobility situation. The so-called pro-worker laws that make it hard
to fire people reinforces the old-boy networks where people get jobs
from people they know, or when to some exclusive school with. This of
course happens in the US too, but at least in the US a kid from a
trailer park or the projects who does well in school has a chance of
getting a good job where they can prove their worth. In Europe hiring
"unkowns" like this can be too risky as they can't be fired if they
turn out to be flakes, so people like that have a hard time getting
jobs. This is the real problem with mobility there.


A former in-law of my brother did somewhat well in Germany. He tried to move
to the USA where he believed his business would thrive. The USA wouldn't let
a German immigrate. He moved to Australia and is presently a
multimillionaire. If he could have done that in Germany he'd have stayed.


  #10  
Old August 16th 06, 10:41 PM posted to rec.bicycles.racing
[email protected]
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Posts: 601
Default "Rigid Class System in Europe" Bob Roll Comments


Revtom wrote:
The rigid class system in the US is rarely spoken of, and if one does
mention it, the neo-cons immediately cry out "class warfare!!". They
don't want any attention drawn to the rapidly disappearing middle class
of the US. There are some slight chances for inter-caste mobility both
in Europe and the US - either with a lucky, huge lottery win, or as in
some cases, those lucky enough to be in the right place at the right
time during the internet boom. In any case, if you aren't already
wealthy, you've missed out.
Revtom


There is no rigid class system in the US. Sure it's far from perfect,
but it really is the land of oppurtunity. I know personally several
people who arrived in the US as refugees from places like Poland and
Ethiopia with literally $2 in their pockets who live as comfortable
middle-class citizens now. I'm only 3rd generation and even my
grandparents who were born on the boat made it to middle class after
they got to NY. I also know of black kids who grew up in the projects
who are doctors and are on boards of trustees at museums. Sure that's
all anecdotal, but that sort of thing is much less common elsewhere.

And you don't have to win lotto to become rich. Running a good pizza
restaurant or plumbing company can do the trick. And what is wealthy
anyway? What is poor? I remember watching (fat) people on "check day"
in Chicago standing in line to get their handout while wearing leather
jackets, gold jewlrey, and then using the money to pay their cable bill
at the same place.

I'm not saying there are no problems, but lack of mobility is not one
of them.

Joseph

 




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