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Shimano Hollowtech lateral play



 
 
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  #1  
Old January 4th 20, 02:27 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
James[_8_]
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Posts: 6,153
Default Shimano Hollowtech lateral play

On a ride today on my gravel bike that came with Shimano gears, I
noticed movement in the BB area when I rode in much higher than normal
gears up a 10% grade. When I got home I investigated and found that I
can move the BB axle approximately 1 millimetre laterally. Having just
watched a video where a fellow removes the cranks and BB axle from a
bike, I am left wondering what controls lateral play?

Now having watched another video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W3-c8tS12Ko I wonder, do I have to buy
some special shims and another special tool to adjust the bearing preload?

(I've not had any prior experience with this Shimano BB, and a similar
problem doesn't exist for me with Campagnolo UT BBs that also employ
outboard bearings.)

--
JS
Ads
  #2  
Old January 4th 20, 02:58 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
jOHN b.
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Posts: 2,421
Default Shimano Hollowtech lateral play

On Sat, 4 Jan 2020 12:27:22 +1100, James
wrote:

On a ride today on my gravel bike that came with Shimano gears, I
noticed movement in the BB area when I rode in much higher than normal
gears up a 10% grade. When I got home I investigated and found that I
can move the BB axle approximately 1 millimetre laterally. Having just
watched a video where a fellow removes the cranks and BB axle from a
bike, I am left wondering what controls lateral play?

Now having watched another video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W3-c8tS12Ko I wonder, do I have to buy
some special shims and another special tool to adjust the bearing preload?

(I've not had any prior experience with this Shimano BB, and a similar
problem doesn't exist for me with Campagnolo UT BBs that also employ
outboard bearings.)


If the BB is as shown in the youtube it originally came with different
thickness spacers but the side play is taken out by R.H. pedal's
location on the shaft. The video shows the use of some sort of special
gizmo to set the pre load but shimano used to and maybe still do
supply a sort of nut thingie to adjust the pre-load before tightening
the mounting screws.
see:
https://bike.shimano.com/en-EU/produ.../SM-BBR60.html
check dealer's manual.
--
cheers,

John B.

  #3  
Old January 4th 20, 03:04 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
JBeattie
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5,870
Default Shimano Hollowtech lateral play

On Friday, January 3, 2020 at 5:27:35 PM UTC-8, James wrote:
On a ride today on my gravel bike that came with Shimano gears, I
noticed movement in the BB area when I rode in much higher than normal
gears up a 10% grade. When I got home I investigated and found that I
can move the BB axle approximately 1 millimetre laterally. Having just
watched a video where a fellow removes the cranks and BB axle from a
bike, I am left wondering what controls lateral play?

Now having watched another video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W3-c8tS12Ko I wonder, do I have to buy
some special shims and another special tool to adjust the bearing preload?

(I've not had any prior experience with this Shimano BB, and a similar
problem doesn't exist for me with Campagnolo UT BBs that also employ
outboard bearings.)

You adjust preload by tighten the retaining cap ("fixing bolt"). Loosen the pinch bolts and tighten down the retaining cap. You can look up the torque setting, but I just do it by feel, avoiding end loading and binding the BB bearings. Lou just uses a full beer can as a counter weight, IIRC. If you tighten it down all the way, and there is still play -- then you need some shims, which are readily available. FYI, be diligent with the torque setting on the pinch bolts, and tighten them alternately. It is possible for them to (1) strip if over-tightened, and (2) come loose if under-tightened.

How are the koalas doing? Any left? Save the koalas!

-- Jay Beattie.
  #4  
Old January 4th 20, 03:05 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
jOHN b.
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,421
Default Shimano Hollowtech lateral play

On Sat, 04 Jan 2020 08:58:49 +0700, John B.
wrote:

On Sat, 4 Jan 2020 12:27:22 +1100, James
wrote:

On a ride today on my gravel bike that came with Shimano gears, I
noticed movement in the BB area when I rode in much higher than normal
gears up a 10% grade. When I got home I investigated and found that I
can move the BB axle approximately 1 millimetre laterally. Having just
watched a video where a fellow removes the cranks and BB axle from a
bike, I am left wondering what controls lateral play?

Now having watched another video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W3-c8tS12Ko I wonder, do I have to buy
some special shims and another special tool to adjust the bearing preload?

(I've not had any prior experience with this Shimano BB, and a similar
problem doesn't exist for me with Campagnolo UT BBs that also employ
outboard bearings.)


If the BB is as shown in the youtube it originally came with different
thickness spacers but the side play is taken out by R.H. pedal's
location on the shaft. The video shows the use of some sort of special
gizmo to set the pre load but shimano used to and maybe still do
supply a sort of nut thingie to adjust the pre-load before tightening
the mounting screws.
see:
https://bike.shimano.com/en-EU/produ.../SM-BBR60.html
check dealer's manual.


Sorry (I must have been sitting on the bike backwards) the preload is
set on the #L.H.# pedal.
--
cheers,

John B.

  #5  
Old January 4th 20, 03:30 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
James[_8_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 6,153
Default Shimano Hollowtech lateral play

On 4/1/20 1:05 pm, John B. wrote:
On Sat, 04 Jan 2020 08:58:49 +0700, John B.
wrote:

On Sat, 4 Jan 2020 12:27:22 +1100, James
wrote:

On a ride today on my gravel bike that came with Shimano gears, I
noticed movement in the BB area when I rode in much higher than normal
gears up a 10% grade. When I got home I investigated and found that I
can move the BB axle approximately 1 millimetre laterally. Having just
watched a video where a fellow removes the cranks and BB axle from a
bike, I am left wondering what controls lateral play?

Now having watched another video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W3-c8tS12Ko I wonder, do I have to buy
some special shims and another special tool to adjust the bearing preload?

(I've not had any prior experience with this Shimano BB, and a similar
problem doesn't exist for me with Campagnolo UT BBs that also employ
outboard bearings.)


If the BB is as shown in the youtube it originally came with different
thickness spacers but the side play is taken out by R.H. pedal's
location on the shaft. The video shows the use of some sort of special
gizmo to set the pre load but shimano used to and maybe still do
supply a sort of nut thingie to adjust the pre-load before tightening
the mounting screws.
see:
https://bike.shimano.com/en-EU/produ.../SM-BBR60.html
check dealer's manual.


Sorry (I must have been sitting on the bike backwards) the preload is
set on the #L.H.# pedal.


Ok. Looks like I need to play.

--
JS
  #6  
Old January 4th 20, 03:35 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
James[_8_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 6,153
Default Shimano Hollowtech lateral play

On 4/1/20 1:04 pm, jbeattie wrote:
On Friday, January 3, 2020 at 5:27:35 PM UTC-8, James wrote:
On a ride today on my gravel bike that came with Shimano gears, I
noticed movement in the BB area when I rode in much higher than
normal gears up a 10% grade. When I got home I investigated and
found that I can move the BB axle approximately 1 millimetre
laterally. Having just watched a video where a fellow removes the
cranks and BB axle from a bike, I am left wondering what controls
lateral play?

Now having watched another video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W3-c8tS12Ko I wonder, do I have
to buy some special shims and another special tool to adjust the
bearing preload?

(I've not had any prior experience with this Shimano BB, and a
similar problem doesn't exist for me with Campagnolo UT BBs that
also employ outboard bearings.)

You adjust preload by tighten the retaining cap ("fixing bolt").
Loosen the pinch bolts and tighten down the retaining cap. You can
look up the torque setting, but I just do it by feel, avoiding end
loading and binding the BB bearings. Lou just uses a full beer can as
a counter weight, IIRC. If you tighten it down all the way, and there
is still play -- then you need some shims, which are readily
available. FYI, be diligent with the torque setting on the pinch
bolts, and tighten them alternately. It is possible for them to (1)
strip if over-tightened, and (2) come loose if under-tightened.


Thanks. Yes I will be torquing to spec.


How are the koalas doing? Any left? Save the koalas!


I'm sure enough will have survived to continue the species, but food
will be the next issue, seeing as how most of the trees where they
inhabit are leafless now.

https://www.statista.com/chart/20387/recent-wildfire-events-by-acreage-burned/

And it's still burning out of control, so the area burned will continue
to grow.

--
JS
  #7  
Old January 4th 20, 05:06 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Frank Krygowski[_2_]
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Posts: 7,511
Default Shimano Hollowtech lateral play

On Friday, January 3, 2020 at 9:35:55 PM UTC-5, James wrote:
On 4/1/20 1:04 pm, jbeattie wrote:

How are the koalas doing? Any left? Save the koalas!


I'm sure enough will have survived to continue the species, but food
will be the next issue, seeing as how most of the trees where they
inhabit are leafless now.

https://www.statista.com/chart/20387/recent-wildfire-events-by-acreage-burned/

And it's still burning out of control, so the area burned will continue
to grow.


Vaguely related, I recently read _1491_ by Charles Mann, about pre-
Columbian North & South America. Among much other fascinating stuff,
he pointed out that the American Indians of New England conducted
annual burns of the forest underbrush, for various reasons - to
aid hunting, to make travel easier, to promote growth of grass and
attract prey.

And I think it's now clear that too much undergrowth exacerbates fire
risks. Which makes me wonder: Did the Australian aborigines have a
tradition of conducting controlled burns? Did that practice end and
lead to the current tragedy?

Just wondering.

- Frank Krygowski

  #8  
Old January 4th 20, 01:09 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 824
Default Shimano Hollowtech lateral play

On Saturday, January 4, 2020 at 3:04:21 AM UTC+1, jbeattie wrote:
On Friday, January 3, 2020 at 5:27:35 PM UTC-8, James wrote:
On a ride today on my gravel bike that came with Shimano gears, I
noticed movement in the BB area when I rode in much higher than normal
gears up a 10% grade. When I got home I investigated and found that I
can move the BB axle approximately 1 millimetre laterally. Having just
watched a video where a fellow removes the cranks and BB axle from a
bike, I am left wondering what controls lateral play?

Now having watched another video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W3-c8tS12Ko I wonder, do I have to buy
some special shims and another special tool to adjust the bearing preload?

(I've not had any prior experience with this Shimano BB, and a similar
problem doesn't exist for me with Campagnolo UT BBs that also employ
outboard bearings.)

You adjust preload by tighten the retaining cap ("fixing bolt"). Loosen the pinch bolts and tighten down the retaining cap. You can look up the torque setting, but I just do it by feel, avoiding end loading and binding the BB bearings. Lou just uses a full beer can as a counter weight, IIRC. If you tighten it down all the way, and there is still play -- then you need some shims, which are readily available. FYI, be diligent with the torque setting on the pinch bolts, and tighten them alternately. It is possible for them to (1) strip if over-tightened, and (2) come loose if under-tightened.

How are the koalas doing? Any left? Save the koalas!

-- Jay Beattie.



+1. The preload cap should not be bottoming out on the axle but on the left crank arm. You can easily see this if you remove the preload cap (first loosen the pinch bolts). The axle should not be flush with the surface of the crank arm. I had a photo of it but I couldn't find it. Somewhere in my digital black hole. The torque spec is 2 Nm which is very low for a torque wrench hence my use of a filled 650 ml waterbottle as a counter weight. Make sure al threads are clean and lubed before torquing otherwise you just overcoming friction. Strange that you didn't notice this earlier.

Lou
  #9  
Old January 5th 20, 05:20 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Mark J.
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Posts: 840
Default Shimano Hollowtech lateral play

On 1/4/2020 2:51 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Saturday, January 4, 2020 at 1:27:23 PM UTC-8, James wrote:
On 4/1/20 11:09 pm, wrote:
On Saturday, January 4, 2020 at 3:04:21 AM UTC+1, jbeattie wrote:
On Friday, January 3, 2020 at 5:27:35 PM UTC-8, James wrote:
On a ride today on my gravel bike that came with Shimano gears,
I noticed movement in the BB area when I rode in much higher than
normal gears up a 10% grade. When I got home I investigated and
found that I can move the BB axle approximately 1 millimetre
laterally. Having just watched a video where a fellow removes
the cranks and BB axle from a bike, I am left wondering what
controls lateral play?

Now having watched another video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W3-c8tS12Ko I wonder, do I have
to buy some special shims and another special tool to adjust the
bearing preload?

(I've not had any prior experience with this Shimano BB, and a
similar problem doesn't exist for me with Campagnolo UT BBs that
also employ outboard bearings.)

You adjust preload by tighten the retaining cap ("fixing bolt").
Loosen the pinch bolts and tighten down the retaining cap. You can
look up the torque setting, but I just do it by feel, avoiding end
loading and binding the BB bearings. Lou just uses a full beer can
as a counter weight, IIRC. If you tighten it down all the way, and
there is still play -- then you need some shims, which are readily
available. FYI, be diligent with the torque setting on the pinch
bolts, and tighten them alternately. It is possible for them to
(1) strip if over-tightened, and (2) come loose if
under-tightened.

How are the koalas doing? Any left? Save the koalas!



+1. The preload cap should not be bottoming out on the axle but on
the left crank arm. You can easily see this if you remove the preload
cap (first loosen the pinch bolts). The axle should not be flush with
the surface of the crank arm. I had a photo of it but I couldn't find
it. Somewhere in my digital black hole. The torque spec is 2 Nm which
is very low for a torque wrench hence my use of a filled 650 ml
waterbottle as a counter weight. Make sure al threads are clean and
lubed before torquing otherwise you just overcoming friction. Strange
that you didn't notice this earlier.


Thanks Lou. Strange that I didn't notice the movement? I think there
was enough friction (maybe oxidation?) to hold it in a position for
normal riding. It requires some effort to push the axle left and right.

--
JS


My $.02 USD: On a new crank, you can have a very tight fit between the spindle and bearings, which is even worse if the BB shell faces are not parallel.
https://www.parktool.com/assets/img/...igure_7-15.jpg During the original install, the crank may have been popped into the bearings but not completely seated on the right side because of the tight fit. Getting the preload cap tight would not exert enough force to seat the crank, and the crank would not rock if tested. Then you ride on that for a while, and the spindle wears and play develops -- and the crank can seat against the right bearing. The only other explanation is loose pinch bolts and the crank arm walking out, but that would also push out the preload cap, which can happen. A Hollowtech crank arm can fall off.


?Can a Hollowtech crank fall off? ISTR a shim in the crank pinch bolts
that is keyed to a hole in the spindle. Am I remembering incorrectly?

I imagine the spindle hole has to be pretty wide to keep the key from
interfering with preload adjustment, and of course you could leave the
shim off (I nearly did until I figured out its function).

I have limited experience with Shimano cranks, (though I've owned three,
still using one), so I may have something fundamentally wrong here.

Mark J.

  #10  
Old January 5th 20, 05:20 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Joy Beeson
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Posts: 1,638
Default Shimano Hollowtech lateral play

On Fri, 3 Jan 2020 20:06:00 -0800 (PST), Frank Krygowski
wrote:

Did the Australian aborigines have a
tradition of conducting controlled burns? Did that practice end and
lead to the current tragedy?


In some areas, invasive plants are a factor. The native kerosene
grass flashes up and is gone; the invasive plants burn more slowly,
set fire to other plants, and roast the soil.

--
Joy Beeson
joy beeson at comcast dot net


 




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