Voiding the warranty -- Dyno Redux

On Sun, 5 Jan 2020 14:49:32 -0800 (PST), jbeattie
wrote:

On Sunday, January 5, 2020 at 12:02:24 PM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 1/5/2020 11:08 AM, jbeattie wrote:

Andre Jute wrote:
what's wrong with the Luxos?


Or, as we simpletons put it, its dim -- at least compared to a decent 800 lumen all-in-one on a 500 lumen setting, i.e. the second to the highest setting on my L&M Urban 800...

Yep, lumen wars. And to continue the logic, the Urban 800 is dim at
least compared to the Urban 1000; which is really dim compared to the
Suburban 2500... and on and on.

A motorcycle's low beam headlamp is maybe 750 lumens and is usually fine
for 55 mph. It seems really weird to say you need to match that with a
bike headlight.

And we've talked about wet roads before; but last night, I was driving
on a dark, newly paved and relatively empty four-lane state highway in
the rain. For obvious optical reasons, I couldn't see my headlight beams
on the wet road. If my headlights were ten times brighter, I still
couldn't have seen them - but they sure would have been effective at
blinding oncoming motorists.

I've always suspected my hub output was low, too, but I don't have a reliable way of testing it and don't feel like doing a DYI Radio Shack project.

Do you own a multimeter? Seriously! We should be able to measure the
hub's output.

Is measuring with no load that meaningful?

Measuring with no load tells you the voltage which may not be
significant.

And I know, anyone who needs a bright light is an idiot -- like needing anything other than a 1970s touring bike with cantilever brakes. Riding on the rocky trail into my neighborhood at 10mph, the Luxos doesn't produce enough light to see. Sorry. It is inadequate. It is inadequate in most places except the cycletrack. My little all-in-one produces more light at the "medium" setting, but I'll do a comparison tomorrow night and report back.

-- Jay Beattie.


--
cheers,

John B.

On Sunday, 5 January 2020 17:49:35 UTC-5, jbeattie wrote:
On Sunday, January 5, 2020 at 12:02:24 PM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 1/5/2020 11:08 AM, jbeattie wrote:

Andre Jute wrote:
what's wrong with the Luxos?


Or, as we simpletons put it, its dim -- at least compared to a decent 800 lumen all-in-one on a 500 lumen setting, i.e. the second to the highest setting on my L&M Urban 800...

Yep, lumen wars. And to continue the logic, the Urban 800 is dim at
least compared to the Urban 1000; which is really dim compared to the
Suburban 2500... and on and on.

A motorcycle's low beam headlamp is maybe 750 lumens and is usually fine
for 55 mph. It seems really weird to say you need to match that with a
bike headlight.

And we've talked about wet roads before; but last night, I was driving
on a dark, newly paved and relatively empty four-lane state highway in
the rain. For obvious optical reasons, I couldn't see my headlight beams
on the wet road. If my headlights were ten times brighter, I still
couldn't have seen them - but they sure would have been effective at
blinding oncoming motorists.

I've always suspected my hub output was low, too, but I don't have a reliable way of testing it and don't feel like doing a DYI Radio Shack project.

Do you own a multimeter? Seriously! We should be able to measure the
hub's output.

Is measuring with no load that meaningful?

And I know, anyone who needs a bright light is an idiot -- like needing anything other than a 1970s touring bike with cantilever brakes. Riding on the rocky trail into my neighborhood at 10mph, the Luxos doesn't produce enough light to see. Sorry. It is inadequate. It is inadequate in most places except the cycletrack. My little all-in-one produces more light at the "medium" setting, but I'll do a comparison tomorrow night and report back.

-- Jay Beattie.

I found the same thing here in my area. I tried a hub dynamo at a bike shop in another small city not too far from me but the light was too dim at slow speeds for my needs.

Cheers

On 1/5/2020 4:32 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Sunday, January 5, 2020 at 12:28:21 PM UTC-8, Sepp Ruf wrote:
jbeattie wrote:
On Sunday, January 5, 2020 at 4:46:06 AM UTC-8, Sepp Ruf wrote:
Andre Jute wrote:
On Sunday, January 5, 2020 at 1:40:13 AM UTC, jbeattie wrote:
After breaking my old Cannondale Disc CX bike, I got a replacement
frame CAADX with a CF fork and aluminum steerer -- with a nice
threaded hole in the back of the crown for a fender bolt but no
hole in the front for my Luxos B dyno mood light. So, I was going
to get a bar mount, but I like the light on the crown, so after
doing a little research and while hallucinating on pain meds (from
my little accident a week ago that netted a rib fracture which is
really painful), I drilled a hole in the crown and tapped it 5mm.
The fork crown is like aluminum billet, and Cannondale just drilled
and tapped it for the rear bolt (no insert), so I did the same for
the front. Works great, and there is so much material that I don't
have any concern about a failure.

The SPPD8/Luxos B rides again, for what it's worth (which isn't a
whole lot). I forgot to charge a few times last month, so I
figured I'd lug it around as a backup.

"Luxos B dyno mood light"????

It's well known that I consider B+M an outstanding example of the
good being the enemy of the best, but what's wrong with the Luxos?

The big fat aluminum top's heatsink potential wasted by an outdated,
cold white, underpowered main led sitting on a plastic pcb. Jay's mood
light looks like the dim beam shown when the modder mumbles "Serien"
['zay rien] -- and that's on dry ground, not at Drizzleport, Ore.

https://youtu.be/zxbZLlvqfMg

Or, as we simpletons put it, its dim -- at least compared to a decent 800
lumen all-in-one on a 500 lumen setting, i.e. the second to the highest
setting on my L&M Urban 800 which requires charging but doesn't require a
dyno hub, wiring and a separate light. There is a good reason why dyno
lights have not captured the market.

We could again argue about which of reasons are valid, lame, technology or
culture specific, but the market shares are what they are.

I've always suspected my hub output was low, too,

Unlikely unless THEY put it on a rack in the way of the occasional ufo's hot
magnetic beam exhaust. Hub power failures tend not to be gradual ones,
unlike various effects of corrosion, current leakage, or led damage.

but I don't have a reliable way of testing it and don't
feel like doing a DYI Radio Shack project.

Do Yourself In? Forget about Frank's multimeter then, you might poke your
lawyer hands. Does your Specialized son still know how to feed a light
bulb? You could have him test some clear (12..14V) automotive .4 or .5 amps
bulb with the bike stationary and giving the SP wheel a good spin. If the
bulb lights up reasonably bright, the generator is fine.

I have a multimeter and did house wiring and low voltage wiring before and after getting lawyer hands. I even have alligator clips. I just fixed my toaster, damn it! And the solenoid in my 1950 Westminster chime Nutone door bell.

I've put a multi-meter on it, and just looking at the output voltage doesn't say much, and I was thinking about testing it across a resistor. A light bulb as an indicator doesn't tell me much either except that the light bulb doesn't get that bright. I wonder if it should get brighter.


Your dynamo usually has output current marked, typically
6V2.5W up to about 6V4W. A 1950s 6V auto bulb will barely glow.
IME wiring troubles far outnumber actual dynamo hub troubles.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Sunday, January 5, 2020 at 5:49:35 PM UTC-5, jbeattie wrote:
On Sunday, January 5, 2020 at 12:02:24 PM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 1/5/2020 11:08 AM, jbeattie wrote:

Andre Jute wrote:
what's wrong with the Luxos?


Or, as we simpletons put it, its dim -- at least compared to a decent 800 lumen all-in-one on a 500 lumen setting, i.e. the second to the highest setting on my L&M Urban 800...

Yep, lumen wars. And to continue the logic, the Urban 800 is dim at
least compared to the Urban 1000; which is really dim compared to the
Suburban 2500... and on and on.

A motorcycle's low beam headlamp is maybe 750 lumens and is usually fine
for 55 mph. It seems really weird to say you need to match that with a
bike headlight.

And we've talked about wet roads before; but last night, I was driving
on a dark, newly paved and relatively empty four-lane state highway in
the rain. For obvious optical reasons, I couldn't see my headlight beams
on the wet road. If my headlights were ten times brighter, I still
couldn't have seen them - but they sure would have been effective at
blinding oncoming motorists.

I've always suspected my hub output was low, too, but I don't have a reliable way of testing it and don't feel like doing a DYI Radio Shack project.

Do you own a multimeter? Seriously! We should be able to measure the
hub's output.

Is measuring with no load that meaningful?

Not very. If you want to measure power output, you'll need a load.
I'd get a couple of resistors out of my workshop drawer to make a
12 Ohm load. Spin the wheel at least 12 mph and see what voltage
you get. Switch to amp scale, put the meter in series with the
load and repeat to see the current (which will almost certainly be
about half an amp). Multiply Volts times Amps to get Watts. It should
be about 3 Watts.

I might also check out the headlight itself. You could do that by
hooking it up to a six Volt battery. (Dyno lights are designed for
AC, but will work on DC.) Is it way brighter?

If your system is really so dim as to be useless, my first guess would
be a wiring problem. My second guess would be the headlight itself,
but I think that's much more remote. I'd put the dyno third for a
likely source of failure.

And I know, anyone who needs a bright light is an idiot -- like needing anything other than a 1970s touring bike with cantilever brakes. Riding on the rocky trail into my neighborhood at 10mph, the Luxos doesn't produce enough light to see. Sorry. It is inadequate. It is inadequate in most places except the cycletrack.

I'm sorry it doesn't work for you; and it does baffle me. I'm older
than you, so I'd expect my night vision wouldn't be any better than
yours. Maybe its because your riding is so often in wet weather...
but then lots of people in very wet climates use dyno lights very
well.

As I've said, my B&M Cyo lights up stop signs about a quarter mile
away. To me, its light output looks luxurious. Not as bright as the
Oculus, but I can't imagine anyone outside a downhill nighttime
road race needing that thing's light output.

Maybe I got used to riding with a halogen dyno headlight, so mine
looks fine to me.

My little all-in-one produces more light at the "medium" setting, but I'll do a comparison tomorrow night and report back.

I'd be curious about how many feet down the road you can see obstacles
with with each one.

- Frank Krygowski

On 6/1/20 9:49 am, jbeattie wrote:
On Sunday, January 5, 2020 at 12:02:24 PM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski
wrote:
On 1/5/2020 11:08 AM, jbeattie wrote:

Andre Jute wrote:
what's wrong with the Luxos?


Or, as we simpletons put it, its dim -- at least compared to a
decent 800 lumen all-in-one on a 500 lumen setting, i.e. the
second to the highest setting on my L&M Urban 800...

Yep, lumen wars. And to continue the logic, the Urban 800 is dim
at least compared to the Urban 1000; which is really dim compared
to the Suburban 2500... and on and on.

A motorcycle's low beam headlamp is maybe 750 lumens and is usually
fine for 55 mph. It seems really weird to say you need to match
that with a bike headlight.

And we've talked about wet roads before; but last night, I was
driving on a dark, newly paved and relatively empty four-lane state
highway in the rain. For obvious optical reasons, I couldn't see my
headlight beams on the wet road. If my headlights were ten times
brighter, I still couldn't have seen them - but they sure would
have been effective at blinding oncoming motorists.

I've always suspected my hub output was low, too, but I don't
have a reliable way of testing it and don't feel like doing a DYI
Radio Shack project.

Do you own a multimeter? Seriously! We should be able to measure
the hub's output.

Is measuring with no load that meaningful?

No. You could use a 6V/3W globe to test it, so long as you can spin the
wheel at least 10 mph, and have a cheap multimeter. Measure voltage
across the globe in one test and the current through it in second test.
Note that the voltage and current will be AC, so ensure the meter is
on the correct measurement setting. RMS voltage x current through a
resistive load gives Watts.

Even easier, if you have a 12 ohm resistor capable of handling at least
5W, you could measure the voltage across the resistor while spinning the
wheel, then disconnect the resistor and measure the resistance just
after the test while it is potentially still warm, and use the
relationship V^2 / R = P.

(Note that a globe resistance changes significantly from cold to hot, so
you can't rely on the resistance measurement of a globe when it is not
glowing, but a resistor will maintain close to measured resistance well
enough).


And I know, anyone who needs a bright light is an idiot -- like
needing anything other than a 1970s touring bike with cantilever
brakes. Riding on the rocky trail into my neighborhood at 10mph, the
Luxos doesn't produce enough light to see. Sorry. It is inadequate.
It is inadequate in most places except the cycletrack. My little
all-in-one produces more light at the "medium" setting, but I'll do a
comparison tomorrow night and report back.


Last time I rode up the hill to home (10% in places, and I would be
riding slower than 10 mph) at night with my dynamo light on my heavy
gravel bike, there was plenty of light for me to see from my 80 lux B&M
IQTec Premium light.

I would have had no trouble on a gravel track at that speed with that
light. Perhaps you just have poor vision at night? I know I see better
at night than she who must be obeyed.

--
JS

On Sunday, January 5, 2020 at 5:28:39 PM UTC, wrote:
On Sunday, January 5, 2020 at 2:40:13 AM UTC+1, jbeattie wrote:
After breaking my old Cannondale Disc CX bike, I got a replacement frame CAADX with a CF fork and aluminum steerer -- with a nice threaded hole in the back of the crown for a fender bolt but no hole in the front for my Luxos B dyno mood light. So, I was going to get a bar mount, but I like the light on the crown, so after doing a little research and while hallucinating on pain meds (from my little accident a week ago that netted a rib fracture which is really painful), I drilled a hole in the crown and tapped it 5mm. The fork crown is like aluminum billet, and Cannondale just drilled and tapped it for the rear bolt (no insert), so I did the same for the front. Works great, and there is so much material that I don't have any concern about a failure.

The SPPD8/Luxos B rides again, for what it's worth (which isn't a whole lot). I forgot to charge a few times last month, so I figured I'd lug it around as a backup. I had to bend that bracket in the vice to make it closer to 90 degrees and then shortened up my FD cable just to make sure all the housings weren't whacking the light. I'm going to check the crank tomorrow since it was making a bunch of noise when I last commuted to work and throw on the winter tires. I struggled around today on a short ride and figure I'll be ready to go back to commuting on Monday. Slowly and painfully. I need to start riding so people in the elevator stop asking me why I'm not riding. I get concern from people who I basically don't even know except that I ride the elevator with them.

-- Jay Beattie.

Just wear your cycling clothes driving to work.

Lou

There's even a controversy about the visibility of bright cycling wear. A fellow on another conference I read saw somewhere that red is more visible in adverse conditions than yellow. Of course, he only mentioned it after I bought a yellow cycling jacket.

Andre Jute
It's not me who's bizarre, it's the world

On Sunday, January 5, 2020 at 12:46:06 PM UTC, Sepp Ruf wrote:
Andre Jute wrote:
On Sunday, January 5, 2020 at 1:40:13 AM UTC, jbeattie wrote:
After breaking my old Cannondale Disc CX bike, I got a replacement
frame CAADX with a CF fork and aluminum steerer -- with a nice threaded
hole in the back of the crown for a fender bolt but no hole in the
front for my Luxos B dyno mood light. So, I was going to get a bar
mount, but I like the light on the crown, so after doing a little
research and while hallucinating on pain meds (from my little accident
a week ago that netted a rib fracture which is really painful), I
drilled a hole in the crown and tapped it 5mm. The fork crown is like
aluminum billet, and Cannondale just drilled and tapped it for the rear
bolt (no insert), so I did the same for the front. Works great, and
there is so much material that I don't have any concern about a
failure.

The SPPD8/Luxos B rides again, for what it's worth (which isn't a whole
lot). I forgot to charge a few times last month, so I figured I'd lug
it around as a backup.

"Luxos B dyno mood light"????

It's well known that I consider B+M an outstanding example of the good
being the enemy of the best, but what's wrong with the Luxos?

The big fat aluminum top's heatsink potential wasted by an outdated, cold
white, underpowered main led sitting on a plastic pcb. Jay's mood light
looks like the dim beam shown when the modder mumbles "Serien" ['zay rien]
-- and that's on dry ground, not at Drizzleport, Ore.

https://youtu.be/zxbZLlvqfMg

Thanks, Sepp. That video does show one lamp or mode that would be acceptable on a cheaper lamp than the Luxos. But in the wet a hub dynamo lamp won't cut it. Here's a photograph taken from the saddle of my bike on a wet day at dusk
http://thorncyclesforum.co.uk/index....59139#msg59139
and if you scroll down to the next photograph, which has been photoshopped to show what you would see in daylight, you'll see why I consider a good lamp important.

Ande Jute
Let there be light on the subject

On Sunday, January 5, 2020 at 4:09:01 PM UTC, jbeattie wrote:
On Sunday, January 5, 2020 at 4:46:06 AM UTC-8, Sepp Ruf wrote:
Andre Jute wrote:
On Sunday, January 5, 2020 at 1:40:13 AM UTC, jbeattie wrote:
After breaking my old Cannondale Disc CX bike, I got a replacement
frame CAADX with a CF fork and aluminum steerer -- with a nice threaded
hole in the back of the crown for a fender bolt but no hole in the
front for my Luxos B dyno mood light. So, I was going to get a bar
mount, but I like the light on the crown, so after doing a little
research and while hallucinating on pain meds (from my little accident
a week ago that netted a rib fracture which is really painful), I
drilled a hole in the crown and tapped it 5mm. The fork crown is like
aluminum billet, and Cannondale just drilled and tapped it for the rear
bolt (no insert), so I did the same for the front. Works great, and
there is so much material that I don't have any concern about a
failure.

The SPPD8/Luxos B rides again, for what it's worth (which isn't a whole
lot). I forgot to charge a few times last month, so I figured I'd lug
it around as a backup.

"Luxos B dyno mood light"????

It's well known that I consider B+M an outstanding example of the good
being the enemy of the best, but what's wrong with the Luxos?

The big fat aluminum top's heatsink potential wasted by an outdated, cold
white, underpowered main led sitting on a plastic pcb. Jay's mood light
looks like the dim beam shown when the modder mumbles "Serien" ['zay rien]
-- and that's on dry ground, not at Drizzleport, Ore.

https://youtu.be/zxbZLlvqfMg

Or, as we simpletons put it, its dim -- at least compared to a decent 800 lumen all-in-one on a 500 lumen setting, i.e. the second to the highest setting on my L&M Urban 800 which requires charging but doesn't require a dyno hub, wiring and a separate light. There is a good reason why dyno lights have not captured the market. I've always suspected my hub output was low, too, but I don't have a reliable way of testing it and don't feel like doing a DYI Radio Shack project.

-- Jay Beattie.

"I've always suspected my hub output was low, too"

Unlikely, as others have explained. Over the built-in resistor of your DMM the hub's output might spiral up to a dizzy 7.5V. It's strictly limited by German law and the rest of us just have to put up and shut up.

I know precisely how limited the German lamp system, from any maker not just BUMM, is, because I have a bicycle lamp called the Fly E (optically the same as the Cyo) from BUMM that operates off the 36V battery that drives the motor on my Kranich; in this case it is the internal electronics and the LED which limit the light output to -- wait for it -- less than that on the Cyo (BUMM claims it is the same output). You can see the output of the Fly E under ideal circumstances he
http://coolmainpress.com/BICYCLINGbuildingpedelec5.html
and he
http://coolmainpress.com/BICYCLINGbuildingpedelec6.html

For what it's worth, I still ride on my first series CYO, driven by a SON hub dynamo. I haven't seen anything from BUMM so much better that it would justify replacement.

Andre Jute
Perhaps I should have bought a Big Bang instead

On Sunday, January 5, 2020 at 10:49:35 PM UTC, jbeattie wrote:

Andre Jute wrote:
what's wrong with the Luxos?

Or, as we simpletons put it, its dim -- at least compared to a decent 800 lumen all-in-one on a 500 lumen setting, i.e. the second to the highest setting on my L&M Urban 800...

And I know, anyone who needs a bright light is an idiot -- like needing anything other than a 1970s touring bike with cantilever brakes. Riding on the rocky trail into my neighborhood at 10mph, the Luxos doesn't produce enough light to see. Sorry. It is inadequate. It is inadequate in most places except the cycletrack. My little all-in-one produces more light at the "medium" setting, but I'll do a comparison tomorrow night and report back.

-- Jay Beattie.

Maybe "inadequate" isn't the right word. I got beaten up by BUMMbuddies on the conference for years for saying that BUMM lamps were crap, just nicely built crap sold expensively, that failed at their intended function of lighting up the road usefully. Then, when the Cyo appeared, I said that it had about the same output as I remember from the 6V electrics of the VW Beetle, an economy car, that is, just about adequate at slow speed under ideal circumstances. The same BUMMbuddies beat me up for not ecstatically announcing the second coming.

The Luxos is just a marginally improved Cyo, and neither of the Cyos was ever intended for someone who wants to ride at 25mph in the dark and the rain. That's not how Germans lamp makers see their customers. It's not that their lamp doesn't suit you, it is that you don't suit their lamp. To a German lamp maker and legislator, you're an anti-social element, a hooligan.

I don't see why bicyclists shouldn't have motorcar lamps, and not the American glimmerers either, the full European E55 spec, so that we can actually see at night at any speed we can achieve, not what a bunch of fat German legislators decided in the year dot was a reasonable top speed for a German hausfrau shopping for bratwurst.

Andre Jute
Not all Irishmen are scofflaws. (Irishwomen can speak for themselves.)

On 1/5/2020 8:08 AM, jbeattie wrote:

snip

Or, as we simpletons put it, its dim -- at least compared to a decent 800 lumen all-in-one on a 500 lumen setting, i.e. the second to the highest setting on my L&M Urban 800 which requires charging but doesn't require a dyno hub, wiring and a separate light. There is a good reason why dyno lights have not captured the market. I've always suspected my hub output was low, too, but I don't have a reliable way of testing it and don't feel like doing a DYI Radio Shack project.

I have dynamo lights on three bikes, a DaHon Speed TR, a road bike, and
a utility bike. They're fine for "being seen" lights, or for areas with
decent street lighting. They're basically used as back-ups.

This morning my wife was off to work on her bike, after a few weeks of
not riding, and she hadn't charged her light, but my light with the same
mount was available for her.

I have this battery powered light
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/32881748677.html, she has the older
1600 lumen model https://www.aliexpress.com/item/32802747811.html. I
also bought several extra mounts
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/32938325340.html.

1800 lumens is rarely needed and I use one of the lower power settings.
One really nice feature of these lights is that instead of a strobe for
a DRL, they have a "breathe mode" which is similar to what some
motorcycles use for their DRL.

I'd like to see future battery powered lights incorporated QC3.0 fast
charging and USB-C connectors.