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#61
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[OT] habitat
On 7/14/2011 10:48 AM, SMS wrote:
On 7/12/2011 5:08 PM, James wrote: Horses also leave lots of manure that may contain foreign seeds, and it is said heavy hooves damage delicate soil structures, in this country. MV is probably very opposed to horses as well but since one of his only supporters is a real estate agent that bills herself as a "Horse Property Specialist," he feels obligated to not publicly oppose them. This is a shame since if he could be educated to direct his efforts against the trail users that cause the most damage he would give up on mountain bikes and concentrate on equestrians. India has sacred cows, we've got sacred horses. I've ridden horses, mountain biked and hiked on the same trails. No contest, horses trash the place, but they're grandfathered in. It's ironic that many of our local trails have seasonal closures during mud season, but the only users who are excluded are bikers. |
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#62
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habitat
On Jul 14, 1:02*pm, Peter Cole wrote:
On 7/14/2011 10:48 AM, SMS wrote: On 7/12/2011 5:08 PM, James wrote: Horses also leave lots of manure that may contain foreign seeds, and it is said heavy hooves damage delicate soil structures, in this country. MV is probably very opposed to horses as well but since one of his only supporters is a real estate agent that bills herself as a "Horse Property Specialist," he feels obligated to not publicly oppose them. This is a shame since if he could be educated to direct his efforts against the trail users that cause the most damage he would give up on mountain bikes and concentrate on equestrians. India has sacred cows, we've got sacred horses. I've ridden horses, mountain biked and hiked on the same trails. No contest, horses trash the place, but they're grandfathered in. It's ironic that many of our local trails have seasonal closures during mud season, but the only users who are excluded are bikers. You obviously haven't studied the SCIENCE (REAL science, not the JUNK science created by mountain bikers). The SCIENCE shows that mountain bikers have greater impacts on erosion, plants, and animals, partly because they generally travel several times as FAR and as FAST as other trail users, multiplying their impacts. (See http://mjvande/nfshost.com/scb7.htm.) Besides that, horses evolved in North America, and hence arguably have the right to go wherever they want to. BIKES, on the other hand, and inanimate OBJECTS, and have no rights whatsoever. And there is no right to mountain bike (see http://mjvande/nfshost.com/mtb10.htm). |
#63
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habitat
Mike Vandeman wrote:
On Jul 14, 1:02 pm, Peter Cole wrote: On 7/14/2011 10:48 AM, SMS wrote: On 7/12/2011 5:08 PM, James wrote: Horses also leave lots of manure that may contain foreign seeds, and it is said heavy hooves damage delicate soil structures, in this country. MV is probably very opposed to horses as well but since one of his only supporters is a real estate agent that bills herself as a "Horse Property Specialist," he feels obligated to not publicly oppose them. This is a shame since if he could be educated to direct his efforts against the trail users that cause the most damage he would give up on mountain bikes and concentrate on equestrians. India has sacred cows, we've got sacred horses. I've ridden horses, mountain biked and hiked on the same trails. No contest, horses trash the place, but they're grandfathered in. It's ironic that many of our local trails have seasonal closures during mud season, but the only users who are excluded are bikers. You obviously haven't studied the SCIENCE (REAL science, not the JUNK science created by mountain bikers). The SCIENCE shows that mountain bikers have greater impacts on erosion, plants, and animals, partly because they generally travel several times as FAR and as FAST as other trail users, multiplying their impacts. (See http://mjvande/nfshost.com/scb7.htm.) Besides that, horses evolved in North America, and hence arguably have the right to go wherever they want to. BIKES, on the other hand, and inanimate OBJECTS, and have no rights whatsoever. And there is no right to mountain bike (see http://mjvande/nfshost.com/mtb10.htm). http://www.2wheels.co.za/FTP_IMAGES/...1/OFFROAD2.jpg -- Andrew Muzi www.yellowjersey.org/ Open every day since 1 April, 1971 |
#64
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habitat
On 7/14/2011 5:22 PM, AMuzi wrote:
Mike Vandeman wrote: On Jul 14, 1:02 pm, Peter Cole wrote: On 7/14/2011 10:48 AM, SMS wrote: On 7/12/2011 5:08 PM, James wrote: Horses also leave lots of manure that may contain foreign seeds, and it is said heavy hooves damage delicate soil structures, in this country. MV is probably very opposed to horses as well but since one of his only supporters is a real estate agent that bills herself as a "Horse Property Specialist," he feels obligated to not publicly oppose them. This is a shame since if he could be educated to direct his efforts against the trail users that cause the most damage he would give up on mountain bikes and concentrate on equestrians. India has sacred cows, we've got sacred horses. I've ridden horses, mountain biked and hiked on the same trails. No contest, horses trash the place, but they're grandfathered in. It's ironic that many of our local trails have seasonal closures during mud season, but the only users who are excluded are bikers. You obviously haven't studied the SCIENCE (REAL science, not the JUNK science created by mountain bikers). The SCIENCE shows that mountain bikers have greater impacts on erosion, plants, and animals, partly because they generally travel several times as FAR and as FAST as other trail users, multiplying their impacts. (See http://mjvande/nfshost.com/scb7.htm.) Besides that, horses evolved in North America, and hence arguably have the right to go wherever they want to. BIKES, on the other hand, and inanimate OBJECTS, and have no rights whatsoever. And there is no right to mountain bike (see http://mjvande/nfshost.com/mtb10.htm). http://www.2wheels.co.za/FTP_IMAGES/...1/OFFROAD2.jpg Yeah those guys really do some landscaping. Some of the trails I ride were cut by motorized bikes long ago. Things have stabilized in the decade or two that I've been on them, motor bikes are long gone, but the berms are still there. A lot of the trails I ride were created by bulldozers, too. The rangers keep things wide enough for truck access, and a single truck passage leaves deeper ruts than a century of mountain bikes (extrapolating). The fragile marshy areas are mostly protected by boardwalks, some of which I've volunteered on, but those were put down primarily for hikers. I also ride on ski slopes (landscape by bulldozer, again) and rocky trails originally cut by CCC during the depression. Utility line (power transmission and aqueduct) tracks are also popular routes. My home state (MA) was clear cut to the horizon 100 years ago, it's no unspoiled wilderness. One of my common destinations is a capped landfill -- right on the Charles River banks, of course. At the time it was active, the Charles was literally an open sewer, like the harbor. This area wasn't even virgin when the Native Americans managed it, much less so after the Industrial Revolution got through with it. I'm as green as the next guy, but it's pretty hard to get worked up about mountain bike impact, or even horses, for that matter. This ain't Yellowstone or Yosemite. Even in a dinky state like MA, the big problem with public lands seems to be under-utilization, nobody hunts or even hikes anymore, the fauna is taking over. |
#65
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habitat
On 7/13/2011 12:50 AM, Chalo wrote:
You have demonstrated yourself to the point of absurdity to be an unreliable and uncorrectable "expert" on this topic. I suggest you retire from the discussion both here and elsewhere, for your own benefit. Cooler heads than yours will carry on from here. Chalo He's a big fan of junk science, and he obviously hasn't read the volumes of material by impartial researchers. The fact is that all the experts agree that horses create far more damage than cyclists and that hikers and cyclists have similar impact both to trails and wildlife. There are no reputable studies that show otherwise, obviously. It's not zero impact. Vibram soles have impact to trails just as mountain bike tires do, though in slightly different ways. Similarly, as far as wildlife impact, horses do far more damage than hikers or cyclists, but hikers, since they stay in one area for a longer period of time, are more disruptive of wildlife than a responsible mountain biker. There's the extremely weak argument that horses are okay because they're "grandfathered in" while off-road bicycling is only a few decades old, but of course the "we were here first" argument has no real validity. Again, one his only supporters in his jihad against bicyclists is an equestrian who also specializes in selling properties suitable for horse owners. Obviously she has a vested interest in keeping as many trails open to horses as possible and as many trails closed to cyclists. You think she might want to have enlisted someone more knowledgeable in her efforts since clearly her convicted friend is not helping her cause! |
#66
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habitat
SMS wrote:
It's not zero impact. Vibram soles have impact to trails just as mountain bike tires do, though in slightly different ways. It seems plain that at the same level of intensity (wattage, for lack of a better unit), a rolling contact by a cyclist will do much less harm than shuffling contact by a hiker. Likewise, a skidding tire will inflict much more damage to the surface than footfalls. So a great deal comes down to style, consideration of the trail and its environment, and plain old common sense and restraint. For every cyclist who skids down hills, there are probably a bunch of hikers who litter, cut across switchbacks, or deposit ordure on the trailside. And for every one of us in this discussion who has the integrity of the natural environment at heart, there are probably a crowd of folks whose idea of outdoors adventure involves gratuitously murdering wild animals for entertainment, or making a huge amount of motor noise and pollution. Chalo |
#67
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habitat
On 7/14/2011 4:18 PM, Chalo wrote:
And for every one of us in this discussion who has the integrity of the natural environment at heart, there are probably a crowd of folks whose idea of outdoors adventure involves gratuitously murdering wild animals for entertainment, or making a huge amount of motor noise and pollution. What's funny-sad is that MV probably does have the integrity of the natural environment at heart, but he lacks the knowledge and personal integrity to make a difference for it. |
#68
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words, words, words. What do they mean?
In article
, Andre Jute wrote: [...] Name the parole officer you claim supervises Michael Vandeman, or apologize for the lie you told. **** or get off the pot. You're scum bringing false witness, Tom Sherman. Unsigned out of contempt There is a difference between a probation officer and a parole officer. You are not doing your argument any good by confusing them. -- Michael Press |
#69
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habitat
On Jul 14, 10:22*pm, AMuzi wrote:
Mike Vandeman wrote: On Jul 14, 1:02 pm, Peter Cole wrote: On 7/14/2011 10:48 AM, SMS wrote: On 7/12/2011 5:08 PM, James wrote: Horses also leave lots of manure that may contain foreign seeds, and it is said heavy hooves damage delicate soil structures, in this country. MV is probably very opposed to horses as well but since one of his only supporters is a real estate agent that bills herself as a "Horse Property Specialist," he feels obligated to not publicly oppose them. This is a shame since if he could be educated to direct his efforts against the trail users that cause the most damage he would give up on mountain bikes and concentrate on equestrians. India has sacred cows, we've got sacred horses. I've ridden horses, mountain biked and hiked on the same trails. No contest, horses trash the place, but they're grandfathered in. It's ironic that many of our local trails have seasonal closures during mud season, but the only users who are excluded are bikers. You obviously haven't studied the SCIENCE (REAL science, not the JUNK science created by mountain bikers). The SCIENCE shows that mountain bikers have greater impacts on erosion, plants, and animals, partly because they generally travel several times as FAR and as FAST as other trail users, multiplying their impacts. (Seehttp://mjvande/nfshost.com/scb7.htm.) Besides that, horses evolved in North America, and hence arguably have the right to go wherever they want to. BIKES, on the other hand, and inanimate OBJECTS, and have no rights whatsoever. And there is no right to mountain bike (seehttp://mjvande/nfshost.com/mtb10.htm). http://www.2wheels.co.za/FTP_IMAGES/...02011/OFFROAD2... -- Andrew Muzi * www.yellowjersey.org/ * Open every day since 1 April, 1971 %^&*()_ Aliens coming here and creating dongas in our pristine environment. A horse wouldn't go down there. Andre Jute |
#70
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words, words, words. What do they mean?
On 7/14/2011 6:52 PM, Michael Press wrote:
In article , Andre wrote: [...] Name the parole officer you claim supervises Michael Vandeman, or apologize for the lie you told. **** or get off the pot. You're scum bringing false witness, Tom Sherman. Unsigned out of contempt There is a difference between a probation officer and a parole officer. You are not doing your argument any good by confusing them. As a "prior offender", Michael J. Vandeman, Piled Higher and Deeper, needs to modify his behavior, if he wants to avoid having a parole officer in the future. -- Tºm Shermªn - 42.435731°N, 83.985007°W I am a vehicular cyclist. |
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