Rear-View Mirrors

On Fri, 06 Feb 2009 13:45:31 GMT in rec.bicycles.misc, Stephen
Harding wrote:

I don't wear a helmet and
the one's attached to glasses seem to strain my eye.

Nothing like the head strain you'll get the next time you go over
your handlebars.

"Tom Keats" wrote in message
...
In article ,
"Roger Zoul" writes:

"Tom Keats" wrote in message
...
In article ,
"Roger Zoul" writes:

Shoulder checking both to the left and right without
swerving is an easily-enough acquired bicycle riding
basic skill (with practice.) Once one has the skill,
one doesn't really need to rely upon redundant
accoutrements along with their limitations, in order
to lazily avoid a little initial effort and practice.
And it seems to me, the more skills a rider acquires,
the more empowered he or she becomes.

Looking at the thing itself instead of its reflection
gives the advantage of depth perception, and avoids
certain optical effects impinged by mirrors, such as
image darkening, washing-out of certain colours, and
distorted image sizes ("objects in mirror are closer
than they appear.")

Wow....spew total nonsense. A simple glance at a mirror is enough to
know
all you need for the given situation. It not as though you need to read
a
PhD disseration in a mirror.

If one is going to use use a mirror, one might as
well be aware of its limitations -- what to expect,
and what not to expect of it.

Shoulder checking also enables a rider to make
eye-contact communication with fellow road/street
users behind, and signals that the shoulder checking
rider is about to change his vector -- perhaps for
a lane change, perhaps for a turn. /That's/ what
looking rearward is for, not for seeing if some
intangible threat is there, like the Boogie Man
hiding under one's bed.

Why would someone using a mirror not shoulder check? Do you assume
that
because the mirror is there that the rider isn't going to move his/her
head
to check what's in the spot right next to him/her?

In that case, the mirror is a redundant accessory.
If the rider has already looked directly, why would
he then use the mirror?

It's not at all redundant because you can also check your rear quickly
without moving your head to actually look behind you.

Do you even know what a shoulder check is?

Another clueless statement.


There are plenty of
times were all you need to know is what is behind you...you may not be
ready
to change your position on the road, but you can still know what's there.

Why, if you're maintaining a predictable line?

Good grief. This is a sure sign of closed-mindedness. Just because I'm
maintaining a predictable line doesn't mean that there is no reason why I
may need to shift positions.


A
single glance that takes only an instant, with no need to look behind.

And that leaves you with an incomplete view.
It's called situatational partial awareness.

How do you know whether I have an incomplete view or not. You're just
making **** up, Tom.
I am in the very best position to know if I feel my view to the rear has
given me a complete view. Your arguments are foolishness.


An "instant" or a quick glance might not be
long enough to collect enough visual information,
while lingering long look might be too much of a
distraction from the more important forward view.
The human brain takes a little time to assimilate
visual information. Not much time, but there's
a differential between noticing something, and
figuring out what it's doing and how your unpredictable
manouevers might affect it.

It seems to me, folks who over-rely on mirrors are
happy to thoughtlessly notice the stuff that might
kill them.


It seems to be that you're just being closed-minded and assuming that your
word arguments have any meaning whatsoever to the reality faced by eithers.


It's
call situational awareness and it is quite obvious from your comments
that
you have no idea about this.

I can turn my head and look behind me without swerving, almost
as easily as glancing in a mirror. But It's worth it, because
I get a much better picture of what's happening back there.

Nonsense. 1) there is a lot more effort involved any way you measure it. 2)
You do not get a much better picture. You are just claiming that you do.
Again, utter bull****.


I confess to having a handlebar mirror on my main bike.
It's convenient for quick, half-the-story glances.
Sometimes it reassures me that the top of my cargo trailer
is still on, and my laundry isn't flying out all over the
street, while I still keep an eye on what's up ahead.

So you're using a mirror, then. It enhances your situational awareness,
but
you don't depend on it totally.

Exactly!

You have a full range of senses and your
vision is a very powerful one. If you eyes are open then they can
collection
information over a continuum of different possible positions. It's
powerful, not otherwise.

There have been occasions where other riders have
passed me on my right, threading the needle between
me and a line of parked cars, through the door zone.
I guess they want to show off how fast they are, but
they're scared to venture deeper into where the cars go.
I confess to being caught by surprise a few times by
this stupid maneouver. I'm wise to it now. It usually
happens when the fair-weather riders come out of the
woodwork.

My handlebar mirror gives no indication of this when
it's incipient. A shoulder-check to the ~right~, would.
One has to be alert to the presence of upcoming other riders,
as well as cars. Especially when riders pull boneheaded
stunts such as I described above. In those situations,
I maintain "a simple glance at a mirror is enough to know
all you need for the given situation" just doesn't cut
the mustard.


You can maintain all you like, but you still clueless.

I guess you think I deserve that dig.

Obviously, I do.


As for "situational awareness", /you/ try driving a
forklift around a narrow crossdock warehouse with a
bunch of unaware temp workers traipsing lackadaisically
around across the floor, with a 7' high palletful of
goods on your fork blades, while using mirrors instead
of driving + looking backwards in your direction of travel.

Oh, f***ing yeah! Looking backwards on a bike isn't in
your direction of travel. In fact, it's the opposite.
But it still can be done by anyone who has a healthy enough
neck to ride a normal bike.

Who said it could not be done? Again, nonsensical arguments posted as some
kind of logic thought.



I dunno. Make love to your mirror and call me clueless,
for all I care.

Yes, I shall call you clueless since you seem to think you can provide a
logic that justifies any position you wish to take just because you don't
like or want to wear a mirror. Your not wearing a mirror is fine with me,
but your nonsense just shows you for who you are.


Do whatever you want. But mirrors on bikes were
never necessities, or else they'd have always had 'em.

Who said they were necessities? They are helpful, but I can still ride
safely without one. A mirror still increases my situational awareness and
thus I choose to use one.



I still wish you well 'cuz I'm a nice guy,
Tom

--
Nothing is safe from me.
I'm really at:
tkeats curlicue vcn dot bc dot ca

I propose we do a scientific study with double-blind testing on mirror
effectiveness. Any volunteers to be test subjects? I'll supply the
blindfolds. ;-)

-alan

--
Alan Hoyle - - http://www.alanhoyle.com/

Roger Zoul wrote:
"Tom Keats" wrote in message
...
[...]
Do whatever you want. But mirrors on bikes were
never necessities, or else they'd have always had 'em.

Who said they were necessities? They are helpful, but I can still ride
safely without one.[...]

Even on the Stratus?

--
Tom Sherman - 42.435731,-83.985007
LOCAL CACTUS EATS CYCLIST - datakoll

In article ,
Andrew Price writes:
On Sat, 7 Feb 2009 22:59:10 -0800, (Tom Keats)
wrote:

[---]

A couple of weeks ago I rode to the laundromat with my
trailerload of laundry. I sneaked up on it via a shaded
side street and almost lost it on black ice. Less than
half a block away, I decided to dismount and walk.

I think I'd rather buy a washing machine that put up with that...

People will drive cars to up as close as they can get to their
destinations, and still have to hoof it for a number of blocks.

I prefer to invest in a bike & trailer. There's not really
much "putting up with" other than the general PITA of laundry day.

Fortunately for me my local laundromat is surrounded by various
delis (including a Brazilian one,) a hot wings place, pizzaria,
a couple of green grocers, a couple of indie coffee shops, the
best butcher shop, and the laundromat has a Mr Submarine right
next door (less lettuce, more hot pickles,) as well as a popular
Filipino restaurant.

There're also a number of boutiques, sporting goods shops, a
venerable ol' bike shop that also does key-cutting, a couple of
electronics parts shops, up-market 2'nd hand shops, and a store
that sells games, from whence I purchased my ginourmous
double-twelve, leather-bound dominoes set.

Any excuse for a ride. Or a ride + a little walk. Or even
just a walk.

I live in (North American) bicycle heaven.

Yeah -- any excuse for a ride. As long as I don't have to
drop the bike and run like a triathlete. I get enough of
that while commuting, getting off the rapid transit train,
and catching the early connecting bus.

But occasionally dismounting from the bike & walking is no
big deal. One gets the best of both worlds that way.

Vancouver is a place where you can ride to one area, get
off the bike & walk around and enjoy the flavour of that
scene, then ride to another area and get off the bike walk
around and enjoy that place, too. And then the next area.

It could be a solitary, nocturnal beach, a market zone,
a mixed commercial/residential place, or whatever.

But I'll tell ya what -- the urban cycling is good here.

Well, I guess it's fair to say it could be worse; it
could be better. If you just wanna go on yer bike, you
can pretty much do that anywhere. But if you wanna go
somewhere for some practical purpose on yer bike,
Vancouver is a good place to be in.


cheers,
Tom



--
Nothing is safe from me.
I'm really at:
tkeats curlicue vcn dot bc dot ca

In article ,
"Roger Zoul" writes:

I dunno. Make love to your mirror and call me clueless,
for all I care.

Yes, I shall call you clueless since you seem to think you can provide a
logic that justifies any position you wish to take just because you don't
like or want to wear a mirror.

No.

My personal approach to mirrors is that while they can
sometimes be helpful, they're not necessary, and I doubt
the need for them in terms of somebody who can ride a
conventional bike & look behind without hurting their neck.

Your not wearing a mirror is fine with me,
but your nonsense just shows you for who you are.

I realize, and am bearing in mind that you're coming at
this from two points of view -- recumbent and conventional
bicycle. And I recognize that some certain recumbent configs
just totally kill the ability to shoulder-check, so mirrors
are relied upon in those circumstances. Honestly. I don't
know if that's what you've got.


Do whatever you want. But mirrors on bikes were
never necessities, or else they'd have always had 'em.

Who said they were necessities? They are helpful, but I can still ride
safely without one. A mirror still increases my situational awareness and
thus I choose to use one.

Roger, I don't wan't animosity between us. I sincerely don't.
We riders have to stick together and support each other. And
I think you're a nice guy.

In my curmudgeonly old age, at work I've kind of lost patience
with kids who haven't learned patience in the first place.
I guess I'm getting impatient with the lazy :-)

Please, Roger -- forgive me for being such a stick-in-the-mud?
Please?

But anyways, a mirror on a conventional bike isn't so
necessary. Maybe it helps, but I wouldn't rely on it.

Some certain recumbent configs need RV mirrors.


May The Lord bless you with the first thing you need,
Tom



--
Nothing is safe from me.
I'm really at:
tkeats curlicue vcn dot bc dot ca

In article ,
Crazy Fred writes:
On Feb 6, 12:19*am, "Roger Zoul" wrote:
"Tom Keats" wrote in message

...





In article ,
"Roger Zoul" writes:

Shoulder checking both to the left and right without
swerving is an easily-enough acquired bicycle riding
basic skill (with practice.) *Once one has the skill,
one doesn't really need to rely upon redundant
accoutrements along with their limitations, in order
to lazily avoid a little initial effort and practice.
And it seems to me, the more skills a rider acquires,
the more empowered he or she becomes.

Looking at the thing itself instead of its reflection
gives the advantage of depth perception, and avoids
certain optical effects impinged by mirrors, such as
image darkening, washing-out of certain colours, and
distorted image sizes ("objects in mirror are closer
than they appear.")

Wow....spew total nonsense. *A simple glance at a mirror is enough to
know
all you need for the given situation. It not as though you need to read a
PhD disseration in a mirror.

If one is going to use use a mirror, one might as
well be aware of its limitations -- what to expect,
and what not to expect of it.

Shoulder checking also enables a rider to make
eye-contact communication with fellow road/street
users behind, and signals that the shoulder checking
rider is about to change his vector -- perhaps for
a lane change, perhaps for a turn. */That's/ what
looking rearward is for, not for seeing if some
intangible threat is there, like the Boogie Man
hiding under one's bed.

Why would someone using a mirror not shoulder check? *Do you assume that
because the mirror is there that the rider isn't going to move his/her
head
to check what's in the spot right next to him/her?

In that case, the mirror is a redundant accessory.
If the rider has already looked directly, why would
he then use the mirror?

It's not at all redundant because you can also check your rear quickly
without moving your head to actually look behind you. There are plenty of
times were all you need to know is what is behind you...you may not be ready
to change your position on the road, but you can still know what's there. A
single glance that takes only an instant, with no need to look behind. It's
call situational awareness and it is quite obvious from your comments that
you have no idea about this.







I confess to having a handlebar mirror on my main bike.
It's convenient for quick, half-the-story glances.
Sometimes it reassures me that the top of my cargo trailer
is still on, and my laundry isn't flying out all over the
street, while I still keep an eye on what's up ahead.

So you're using a mirror, then. It enhances your situational awareness,
but
you don't depend on it totally.

Exactly!

You have a full range of senses and your
vision is a very powerful one. If you eyes are open then they can
collection
information over a continuum of different possible positions. *It's
powerful, not otherwise.

There have been occasions where other riders have
passed me on my right, threading the needle between
me and a line of parked cars, through the door zone.
I guess they want to show off how fast they are, but
they're scared to venture deeper into where the cars go.
I confess to being caught by surprise a few times by
this stupid maneouver. *I'm wise to it now. *It usually
happens when the fair-weather riders come out of the
woodwork.

My handlebar mirror gives no indication of this when
it's incipient. A shoulder-check to the ~right~, would.
One has to be alert to the presence of upcoming other riders,
as well as cars. Especially when riders pull boneheaded
stunts such as I described above. *In those situations,
I maintain "a simple glance at a mirror is enough to know
all you need for the given situation" just doesn't cut
the mustard.

You can maintain all you like, but you still clueless.





cheers,
Tom

--
Nothing is safe from me.
I'm really at:
tkeats curlicue vcn dot bc dot ca- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -
Well I ran into a situaton. I ride in cold cold temps. So I wear
hoodies and last month due to an inner ear infection I lost the
hearing in my right ear. I lost my mirror in a fall so I was totally
lost not knowing what was behind me. I ran out and got a new one and I
feel safe seeing in the rear. Only time I don't use mirrors while
mountain biking.

There's this tune by the Chameleons (UK) called:
"Don't Fall."

Then there's Chris Squire's "Silently Falling"
on his "Fish Out of Water" cd.


Inner ear stuff is serious.

Actually, balance-losing stuff is pretty serious.
Since you mention falling, I assume you fell on
your bike. That's not good.

Have the ear thing professionally looked-at.

We all need our built-in ears in general life,
more than any aftermarket bike mirrors.
That's our gyroscopes/guidance systems.
(Native folks sure hate those allusions to
heartless, lifeless technology.)


--
klahowya,
Tom

--
Nothing is safe from me.
I'm really at:
tkeats curlicue vcn dot bc dot ca

In article ,
"PatTX" writes:
Tom Keats wrote:
:: The ability to ride without mirrors (or other such "transitional
:: objects[*]") is ... well, I hesitate to say: a survival skill,
:: but it's good to have in one's skills toolkit. And it's so easy
:: to acquire! Maybe easier than losing 10 lbs by dieting alone,
:: without accompanying exercise. But there are always some folks
:: who just don't have the balls or the willingness to do it.

Do you realize how "I think I'm morally superior to you because I don't like
mirrors!" you sound? or the "If you're not just like me then you're
clueless!"

I encourage my fellow riders to enhance their skill sets and
capabilities.

It's not about moral superiority. The ability to shoulder-check
without swerving is crucial to possess, and yet so trivial to
acquire. It's not rocket surgery.

Heck, I'm morally inferior to just about everybody here.
But I can look behind me while riding my bike, because I
made the little bit of effort to learn to do so. So, I'm
here to say it's easy. You don't necessarily need a mirror
on a bicycle.

Mirrors are too easily relied upon despite their failings.
I've already itemized my criticisms of 'em, but I guess
I just don't have enough cred to be taken seriously. Okay.
I don't even want cred. I just wanna keep my own skin on.
I'll respectfully leave it to others to accomplish the
same thing in their own ways.

But I'll tell ya what -- riding a bike without a mirror
is no big whoop.

It never was.


cheers,
Tom

--
"What you see is what you get."
-- Flip Wilson

On Jan 30, 10:34*pm, wrote:

snip

I have a different perspective and
cannot even have a civil discussion about it
with many of today's riders.

I think that says everything you have to say about it.

the mirrors; I find the kind that clips on your glasses to be a
better version than the helmet mounted kind.

I no longer have the one I initially bought but am on the look-out for
the same kind to replace it with.

Initially it took some getting used to but I got to like having it
available.


TBerk

On Sun, 15 Feb 2009 18:56:51 -0800 in rec.bicycles.misc,
(Tom Keats) wrote:

Heck, I'm morally inferior to just about everybody here.
But I can look behind me while riding my bike, because I
made the little bit of effort to learn to do so. So, I'm
here to say it's easy. You don't necessarily need a mirror
on a bicycle.

When you get to be my age with my chiro problems you won't be so
damn glib. There are many days when I can ride fine, but can't
turn my head more than about 30 deg without a lot of pain, so a
mirror makes the ride much safer.