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#21
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Bicycle Wheel Building Workshop - Saturday 23 Feb 2013 inCambridge
On Sun, 27 Jan 2013 12:32:04 -0600, nik.morgan wrote:
Ian Smith wrote: On Sat, 26 Jan 2013 04:34:15 -0600, nik.morgan wrote: In what way are they better, a machine will line up the components a lot more accurately than an unskilled human? Whether a machine builds wheels better than an unskilled human is completely irrelevant. Whether the machine builds wheels better than a moderately skilled human is what matters. Machines have trouble with wind-up in butted spokes (to the degree that most machine-built wheels use unbutted) and do a less thorough job of stress-relieving. They optimise to position rather than position and tension, generally. It may technically be possible to make a machine that builds wheels as good as a handbuilt wheel, but the machines that build wheels in practice don't produce as good a wheel as a human. A human takes 10 to 100 times longer, but produces a better wheel and can do so reliably with a wider range of components, including those that give a more durable wheel. Complete crap, no wonder you cyclists part with vast sums of money for simple engineering if that is the type of bull**** you accept as gospel. No, I do not "accept" it - I experience it. Wheels I build are better than mass-produced machine-built wheels, and I am only slightly experienced at wheel building. Are you saying it's complete crap that butted spokes make a more durable wheel? Or complete crap that most machine built wheels use unbutted? Perhaps it's that a machine trues by position that you think is not true? Do you think you could actually explain what you disagree with, rather than just pronouncing that it must all be nonsense? And the point is that I don't part with vast sums of money for simple engineering - I build my own wheels, and get a better wheel than if I parted with money to let a machine in the far east build the wheel for me. All but the first wheel I built has been better than any of the machine built wheels I have had. That's personal first-hand experience, not something I accept because I've been told. But I'm sure your guesswork is much more compelling than mere actual experience. regards, Ian SMith -- |\ /| no .sig |o o| |/ \| |
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#22
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Van Wheel Building Workshop - Saturday 23 Feb 2013 in Kent
Van wheels I build are better than mass-produced machine-built wheels,
and I am only slightly experienced at van wheel building. And the point is that I don't part with vast sums of money for simple engineering - I build my own van wheels, and get a better wheel than if I parted with money to let a machine in the far east build the wheel for me. All but the first van wheel I built has been better than any of the machine built van wheels I have had. That's personal first-hand experience, not something I accept because I've been told. -- Dave - Cyclists VOR. "Many people barely recognise the bicycle as a legitimate mode of transport; it is either a toy for children or a vehicle fit only for the poor and/or strange," Dave Horton, of Lancaster University, wrote in an interim assessment of the Understanding Walking and Cycling study. "For them, cycling is a bit embarrassing, they fail to see its purpose, and have no interest in integrating it into their lives, certainly on a regular basis." |
#23
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Bicycle Wheel Building Workshop - Saturday 23 Feb 2013 in Cambridge
On Jan 27, 6:32*pm, nik.morgan wrote:
Ian Smith wrote: On Sat, 26 Jan 2013 04:34:15 -0600, nik.morgan wrote: *Dave - Cyclists VOR wrote: On 25/01/2013 18:10, Ian Smith wrote: On Thu, 24 Jan 2013 09:09:34 -0000, John Benn wrote: * Why don't you just buy the wheels ready-made? Because you get better wheels building them yourself. * I cannot see what the point of building your own wheels is. *For * £85, you could buy several of them. Hand-built wheels are significantly better than machine built wheels.. Yes of course they are. *What an idiot. *In what way are they better, a machine will line up the components a lot *more accurately than an unskilled human? Whether a machine builds wheels better than an unskilled human is completely irrelevant. *Whether the machine builds wheels better than a moderately skilled human is what matters. Machines have trouble with wind-up in butted spokes (to the degree that most machine-built wheels use unbutted) and do a less thorough job of stress-relieving. *They optimise to position rather than position and tension, generally. It may technically be possible to make a machine that builds wheels as good as a handbuilt wheel, but the machines that build wheels in practice don't produce as good a wheel as a human. *A human takes 10 to 100 times longer, but produces a better wheel and can do so reliably with a wider range of components, including those that give a more durable wheel. regards, * Ian SMith Complete crap, no wonder you cyclists part with vast sums of money for simple engineering if that is the type of bull**** you accept as gospel. You do so enjoy showing off your ignorance and stupidity, don't you Mr Moron? Still, you know what they say - if you've got it, flaunt it. |
#24
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Bicycle Wheel Building Workshop - Saturday 23 Feb 2013 in Cambridge
BrianW wrote:
On Jan 27, 6:32 pm, nik.morgan wrote: Ian Smith wrote: On Sat, 26 Jan 2013 04:34:15 -0600, nik.morgan wrote: Dave - Cyclists VOR wrote: On 25/01/2013 18:10, Ian Smith wrote: On Thu, 24 Jan 2013 09:09:34 -0000, John Benn wrote: Why don't you just buy the wheels ready-made? Because you get better wheels building them yourself. I cannot see what the point of building your own wheels is. For £85, you could buy several of them. Hand-built wheels are significantly better than machine built wheels. Yes of course they are. What an idiot. In what way are they better, a machine will line up the components a lot more accurately than an unskilled human? Whether a machine builds wheels better than an unskilled human is completely irrelevant. Whether the machine builds wheels better than a moderately skilled human is what matters. Machines have trouble with wind-up in butted spokes (to the degree that most machine-built wheels use unbutted) and do a less thorough job of stress-relieving. They optimise to position rather than position and tension, generally. It may technically be possible to make a machine that builds wheels as good as a handbuilt wheel, but the machines that build wheels in practice don't produce as good a wheel as a human. A human takes 10 to 100 times longer, but produces a better wheel and can do so reliably with a wider range of components, including those that give a more durable wheel. regards, Ian SMith Complete crap, no wonder you cyclists part with vast sums of money for simple engineering if that is the type of bull**** you accept as gospel. You do so enjoy showing off your ignorance and stupidity, don't you Mr Moron? Still, you know what they say - if you've got it, flaunt it. Please keep your childish personal attacks to yourself, displaying them shows you as the moron not me. Yet to be shown why hand built wheels are better then machine built ones, plenty of bull**** about butt or otherwise spokes but no reasons. Machine built wheel will last just as long as any other and are far cheaper, I fail to see the attraction but I am ignoring the pose factor. -- ennemm |
#25
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Bicycle Wheel Building Workshop - Saturday 23 Feb 2013 inCambridge
On Tue, 29 Jan 2013 16:17:18 -0600, nik.morgan wrote:
BrianW wrote: On Jan 27, 6:32 pm, nik.morgan wrote: Ian Smith wrote: Machines have trouble with wind-up in butted spokes (to the degree that most machine-built wheels use unbutted) and do a less thorough job of stress-relieving. They optimise to position rather than position and tension, generally. It may technically be possible to make a machine that builds wheels as good as a handbuilt wheel, but the machines that build wheels in practice don't produce as good a wheel as a human. A human takes 10 to 100 times longer, but produces a better wheel and can do so reliably with a wider range of components, including those that give a more durable wheel. Complete crap, no wonder you cyclists part with vast sums of money for simple engineering if that is the type of bull**** you accept as gospel. You do so enjoy showing off your ignorance and stupidity, don't you Mr Moron? Still, you know what they say - if you've got it, flaunt it. Please keep your childish personal attacks to yourself, displaying them shows you as the moron not me. "Keep your childish personal attacks to yourself, you moron"? Yet to be shown why hand built wheels are better then machine built ones, plenty of bull**** about butt or otherwise spokes but no reasons. Sorry, I assumed you had at least the basic knowledge about wheels to understand the benefit of butted spokes. Machine built wheels are almost invariably plain spokes. Using butted spokes gives a wheel that is more durable, it maintains its true better and is less prone to spoke breakage. A wheel that maintains its true is better because in general it is advantageous if the wheels are planar circles centred on the axle attachments. Do you need the reasons for that explaining too? Machine built wheel will last just as long as any other No. and are far cheaper, Not if you make them yourself, which is rather the point of attending a wheel building course, which is where the thread started. -- |\ /| no .sig |o o| |/ \| |
#26
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Bicycle Wheel Building Workshop - Saturday 23 Feb 2013 in Cambridge
On Jan 29, 10:17*pm, nik.morgan wrote:
BrianW wrote: On Jan 27, 6:32 pm, nik.morgan wrote: Ian Smith wrote: On Sat, 26 Jan 2013 04:34:15 -0600, nik.morgan wrote: *Dave - Cyclists VOR wrote: On 25/01/2013 18:10, Ian Smith wrote: On Thu, 24 Jan 2013 09:09:34 -0000, John Benn wrote: * Why don't you just buy the wheels ready-made? Because you get better wheels building them yourself. * I cannot see what the point of building your own wheels is. *For * £85, you could buy several of them. Hand-built wheels are significantly better than machine built wheels. Yes of course they are. *What an idiot. *In what way are they better, a machine will line up the components a lot *more accurately than an unskilled human? Whether a machine builds wheels better than an unskilled human is completely irrelevant. *Whether the machine builds wheels better than a moderately skilled human is what matters. Machines have trouble with wind-up in butted spokes (to the degree that most machine-built wheels use unbutted) and do a less thorough job of stress-relieving. *They optimise to position rather than position and tension, generally. It may technically be possible to make a machine that builds wheels as good as a handbuilt wheel, but the machines that build wheels in practice don't produce as good a wheel as a human. *A human takes 10 to 100 times longer, but produces a better wheel and can do so reliably with a wider range of components, including those that give a more durable wheel. regards, * Ian SMith Complete crap, no wonder you cyclists part with vast sums of money for simple engineering if that is the type of bull**** you accept as gospel. You do so enjoy showing off your ignorance and stupidity, don't you Mr Moron? Still, you know what they say - if you've got it, flaunt it. Please keep your childish personal attacks to yourself, displaying them shows you as the moron not me. Yet to be shown why hand built wheels are better then machine built ones, plenty of bull**** about butt or otherwise spokes but no reasons. Machine built wheel will last just as long as any other and are far cheaper, I fail to see the attraction but I am ignoring the pose factor. I don't know anything about hand built wheels either. Unlike you, though, Mr Moron, I'm prepared to accept that there may be things I don't know about. You seem to be adopting the view that "If I don't understand it, it can't be important". Trouble is, that would mean that in MoronWorld nothing is important. |
#27
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Bicycle Wheel Building Workshop - Saturday 23 Feb 2013 in Cambridge
On Jan 30, 7:19*am, Ian Smith wrote:
On Tue, 29 Jan 2013 16:17:18 -0600, nik.morgan wrote: *BrianW wrote: On Jan 27, 6:32 pm, nik.morgan wrote: Ian Smith wrote: Machines have trouble with wind-up in butted spokes (to the degree that most machine-built wheels use unbutted) and do a less thorough job of stress-relieving. *They optimise to position rather than position and tension, generally. It may technically be possible to make a machine that builds wheels as good as a handbuilt wheel, but the machines that build wheels in practice don't produce as good a wheel as a human. *A human takes 10 to 100 times longer, but produces a better wheel and can do so reliably with a wider range of components, including those that give a more durable wheel. Complete crap, no wonder you cyclists part with vast sums of money for simple engineering if that is the type of bull**** you accept as gospel. You do so enjoy showing off your ignorance and stupidity, don't you Mr Moron? Still, you know what they say - if you've got it, flaunt it. *Please keep your childish personal attacks to yourself, displaying *them shows you as the moron not me. "Keep your childish personal attacks to yourself, you moron"? *Yet to be shown why hand built wheels are better then machine built *ones, plenty of bull**** about butt or otherwise spokes but no *reasons. Sorry, I assumed you had at least the basic knowledge about wheels to understand the benefit of butted spokes. Always a dangerous assumption when it comes to Mr Nik "Morgan" Moron. He's proud of his ignorance and stupidity, and likes to show it off at every opportunity. |
#28
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Bicycle Wheel Building Workshop - Saturday 23 Feb 2013 inCambridge
On Wed, 30 Jan 2013 07:19:44 +0000, Ian Smith wrote:
Yet to be shown why hand built wheels are better then machine built ones, plenty of bull**** about butt or otherwise spokes but no reasons. Sorry, I assumed you had at least the basic knowledge about wheels to understand the benefit of butted spokes. Machine built wheels are almost invariably plain spokes. Using butted spokes gives a wheel that is more durable, it maintains its true better and is less prone to spoke breakage. You missed more compliant and smoother ride. A wheel that maintains its true is better because in general it is advantageous if the wheels are planar circles centred on the axle attachments. Do you need the reasons for that explaining too? Machine built wheel will last just as long as any other No. and are far cheaper, Not if you make them yourself, which is rather the point of attending a wheel building course, which is where the thread started. A nice relaxing activity for a cold wet winters day. Everyone should build at least one wheel in their life. -- davethedave |
#29
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Bicycle Wheel Building Workshop - Saturday 23 Feb 2013 in Cambridge
"BrianW" wrote in message
... On Jan 29, 10:17 pm, nik.morgan wrote: BrianW wrote: On Jan 27, 6:32 pm, nik.morgan wrote: Ian Smith wrote: On Sat, 26 Jan 2013 04:34:15 -0600, nik.morgan wrote: Dave - Cyclists VOR wrote: On 25/01/2013 18:10, Ian Smith wrote: On Thu, 24 Jan 2013 09:09:34 -0000, John Benn wrote: Why don't you just buy the wheels ready-made? Because you get better wheels building them yourself. I cannot see what the point of building your own wheels is. For £85, you could buy several of them. Hand-built wheels are significantly better than machine built wheels. Yes of course they are. What an idiot. In what way are they better, a machine will line up the components a lot more accurately than an unskilled human? Whether a machine builds wheels better than an unskilled human is completely irrelevant. Whether the machine builds wheels better than a moderately skilled human is what matters. Machines have trouble with wind-up in butted spokes (to the degree that most machine-built wheels use unbutted) and do a less thorough job of stress-relieving. They optimise to position rather than position and tension, generally. It may technically be possible to make a machine that builds wheels as good as a handbuilt wheel, but the machines that build wheels in practice don't produce as good a wheel as a human. A human takes 10 to 100 times longer, but produces a better wheel and can do so reliably with a wider range of components, including those that give a more durable wheel. regards, Ian SMith Complete crap, no wonder you cyclists part with vast sums of money for simple engineering if that is the type of bull**** you accept as gospel. You do so enjoy showing off your ignorance and stupidity, don't you Mr Moron? Still, you know what they say - if you've got it, flaunt it. Please keep your childish personal attacks to yourself, displaying them shows you as the moron not me. Yet to be shown why hand built wheels are better then machine built ones, plenty of bull**** about butt or otherwise spokes but no reasons. Machine built wheel will last just as long as any other and are far cheaper, I fail to see the attraction but I am ignoring the pose factor. I don't know anything about hand built wheels either. Unlike you, though, Mr Moron, I'm prepared to accept that there may be things I don't know about. You seem to be adopting the view that "If I don't understand it, it can't be important". Trouble is, that would mean that in MoronWorld nothing is important. Is the kindergarten closed today? |
#30
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Bicycle Wheel Building Workshop - Saturday 23 Feb 2013 in Cambridge
On Jan 30, 11:24*am, "John Benn" wrote:
"BrianW" wrote in message ... On Jan 29, 10:17 pm, nik.morgan wrote: BrianW wrote: On Jan 27, 6:32 pm, nik.morgan wrote: Ian Smith wrote: On Sat, 26 Jan 2013 04:34:15 -0600, nik.morgan wrote: *Dave - Cyclists VOR wrote: On 25/01/2013 18:10, Ian Smith wrote: On Thu, 24 Jan 2013 09:09:34 -0000, John Benn wrote: * Why don't you just buy the wheels ready-made? Because you get better wheels building them yourself. * I cannot see what the point of building your own wheels is.. For * £85, you could buy several of them. Hand-built wheels are significantly better than machine built wheels. Yes of course they are. *What an idiot. *In what way are they better, a machine will line up the components a lot *more accurately than an unskilled human? Whether a machine builds wheels better than an unskilled human is completely irrelevant. *Whether the machine builds wheels better than a moderately skilled human is what matters. Machines have trouble with wind-up in butted spokes (to the degree that most machine-built wheels use unbutted) and do a less thorough job of stress-relieving. *They optimise to position rather than position and tension, generally. It may technically be possible to make a machine that builds wheels as good as a handbuilt wheel, but the machines that build wheels in practice don't produce as good a wheel as a human. *A human takes 10 to 100 times longer, but produces a better wheel and can do so reliably with a wider range of components, including those that give a more durable wheel. regards, * Ian SMith Complete crap, no wonder you cyclists part with vast sums of money for simple engineering if that is the type of bull**** you accept as gospel. You do so enjoy showing off your ignorance and stupidity, don't you Mr Moron? Still, you know what they say - if you've got it, flaunt it. Please keep your childish personal attacks to yourself, displaying them shows you as the moron not me. Yet to be shown why hand built wheels are better then machine built ones, plenty of bull**** about butt or otherwise spokes but no reasons. Machine built wheel will last just as long as any other and are far cheaper, I fail to see the attraction but I am ignoring the pose factor. I don't know anything about hand built wheels either. Unlike you, though, Mr Moron, I'm prepared to accept that there may be things I don't know about. You seem to be adopting the view that "If I don't understand it, it can't be important". Trouble is, that would mean that in MoronWorld nothing is important. Is the kindergarten closed today? I don't think so - Mr Moron hasn't replied yet so perhaps that's where he is. |
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