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Bicycle Wheel Building Workshop - Saturday 23 Feb 2013 in Cambridge



 
 
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  #21  
Old January 28th 13, 01:52 AM posted to uk.rec.cycling
Ian Smith
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3,622
Default Bicycle Wheel Building Workshop - Saturday 23 Feb 2013 inCambridge

On Sun, 27 Jan 2013 12:32:04 -0600, nik.morgan wrote:
Ian Smith wrote:
On Sat, 26 Jan 2013 04:34:15 -0600, nik.morgan wrote:

In what way are they better, a machine will line up the
components a lot more accurately than an unskilled human?


Whether a machine builds wheels better than an unskilled human is
completely irrelevant. Whether the machine builds wheels better
than a moderately skilled human is what matters.

Machines have trouble with wind-up in butted spokes (to the degree
that most machine-built wheels use unbutted) and do a less
thorough job of stress-relieving. They optimise to position
rather than position and tension, generally.

It may technically be possible to make a machine that builds
wheels as good as a handbuilt wheel, but the machines that build
wheels in practice don't produce as good a wheel as a human. A
human takes 10 to 100 times longer, but produces a better wheel
and can do so reliably with a wider range of components, including
those that give a more durable wheel.


Complete crap, no wonder you cyclists part with vast sums of money
for simple engineering if that is the type of bull**** you accept
as gospel.


No, I do not "accept" it - I experience it. Wheels I build are better
than mass-produced machine-built wheels, and I am only slightly
experienced at wheel building.

Are you saying it's complete crap that butted spokes make a more
durable wheel? Or complete crap that most machine built wheels use
unbutted? Perhaps it's that a machine trues by position that you
think is not true? Do you think you could actually explain what you
disagree with, rather than just pronouncing that it must all be
nonsense?

And the point is that I don't part with vast sums of money for simple
engineering - I build my own wheels, and get a better wheel than if I
parted with money to let a machine in the far east build the wheel for
me. All but the first wheel I built has been better than any of the
machine built wheels I have had. That's personal first-hand
experience, not something I accept because I've been told.

But I'm sure your guesswork is much more compelling than mere actual
experience.

regards, Ian SMith
--
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  #22  
Old January 28th 13, 09:12 AM posted to uk.rec.cycling
Dave - Cyclists VOR
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 7,703
Default Van Wheel Building Workshop - Saturday 23 Feb 2013 in Kent

Van wheels I build are better than mass-produced machine-built wheels,
and I am only slightly experienced at van wheel building.

And the point is that I don't part with vast sums of money for simple
engineering - I build my own van wheels, and get a better wheel than if
I parted with money to let a machine in the far east build the wheel for
me. All but the first van wheel I built has been better than any of the
machine built van wheels I have had. That's personal first-hand
experience, not something I accept because I've been told.




--
Dave - Cyclists VOR. "Many people barely recognise the bicycle as a
legitimate mode of transport; it is either a toy for children or a
vehicle fit only for the poor and/or strange," Dave Horton, of Lancaster
University, wrote in an interim assessment of the Understanding Walking
and Cycling study. "For them, cycling is a bit embarrassing, they fail
to see its purpose, and have no interest in integrating it into their
lives, certainly on a regular basis."
  #23  
Old January 28th 13, 11:53 PM posted to uk.rec.cycling
BrianW[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,005
Default Bicycle Wheel Building Workshop - Saturday 23 Feb 2013 in Cambridge

On Jan 27, 6:32*pm, nik.morgan wrote:
Ian Smith wrote:
On Sat, 26 Jan 2013 04:34:15 -0600, nik.morgan wrote:
*Dave - Cyclists VOR wrote:
On 25/01/2013 18:10, Ian Smith wrote:
On Thu, 24 Jan 2013 09:09:34 -0000, John Benn wrote:


* Why don't you just buy the wheels ready-made?


Because you get better wheels building them yourself.


* I cannot see what the point of building your own wheels is. *For
* £85, you could buy several of them.


Hand-built wheels are significantly better than machine built wheels..


Yes of course they are. *What an idiot.


*In what way are they better, a machine will line up the components a lot
*more accurately than an unskilled human?


Whether a machine builds wheels better than an unskilled human is
completely irrelevant. *Whether the machine builds wheels better than
a moderately skilled human is what matters.


Machines have trouble with wind-up in butted spokes (to the degree
that most machine-built wheels use unbutted) and do a less thorough
job of stress-relieving. *They optimise to position rather than
position and tension, generally.


It may technically be possible to make a machine that builds wheels as
good as a handbuilt wheel, but the machines that build wheels in
practice don't produce as good a wheel as a human. *A human takes 10
to 100 times longer, but produces a better wheel and can do so
reliably with a wider range of components, including those that give a
more durable wheel.


regards, * Ian SMith


Complete crap, no wonder you cyclists part with vast sums of money for
simple engineering if that is the type of bull**** you accept as gospel.


You do so enjoy showing off your ignorance and stupidity, don't you Mr
Moron? Still, you know what they say - if you've got it, flaunt it.
  #24  
Old January 29th 13, 11:17 PM posted to uk.rec.cycling
nik.morgan[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 433
Default Bicycle Wheel Building Workshop - Saturday 23 Feb 2013 in Cambridge

BrianW wrote:
On Jan 27, 6:32 pm, nik.morgan wrote:
Ian Smith wrote:
On Sat, 26 Jan 2013 04:34:15 -0600, nik.morgan wrote:
Dave - Cyclists VOR wrote:
On 25/01/2013 18:10, Ian Smith wrote:
On Thu, 24 Jan 2013 09:09:34 -0000, John Benn wrote:


Why don't you just buy the wheels ready-made?


Because you get better wheels building them yourself.


I cannot see what the point of building your own wheels is. For
£85, you could buy several of them.


Hand-built wheels are significantly better than machine built wheels.


Yes of course they are. What an idiot.


In what way are they better, a machine will line up the components a lot
more accurately than an unskilled human?


Whether a machine builds wheels better than an unskilled human is
completely irrelevant. Whether the machine builds wheels better than
a moderately skilled human is what matters.


Machines have trouble with wind-up in butted spokes (to the degree
that most machine-built wheels use unbutted) and do a less thorough
job of stress-relieving. They optimise to position rather than
position and tension, generally.


It may technically be possible to make a machine that builds wheels as
good as a handbuilt wheel, but the machines that build wheels in
practice don't produce as good a wheel as a human. A human takes 10
to 100 times longer, but produces a better wheel and can do so
reliably with a wider range of components, including those that give a
more durable wheel.


regards, Ian SMith


Complete crap, no wonder you cyclists part with vast sums of money for
simple engineering if that is the type of bull**** you accept as gospel.


You do so enjoy showing off your ignorance and stupidity, don't you Mr
Moron? Still, you know what they say - if you've got it, flaunt it.


Please keep your childish personal attacks to yourself, displaying them
shows you as the moron not me.

Yet to be shown why hand built wheels are better then machine built ones,
plenty of bull**** about butt or otherwise spokes but no reasons. Machine
built wheel will last just as long as any other and are far cheaper, I fail
to see the attraction but I am ignoring the pose factor.
--
ennemm
  #25  
Old January 30th 13, 08:19 AM posted to uk.rec.cycling
Ian Smith
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3,622
Default Bicycle Wheel Building Workshop - Saturday 23 Feb 2013 inCambridge

On Tue, 29 Jan 2013 16:17:18 -0600, nik.morgan wrote:
BrianW wrote:
On Jan 27, 6:32 pm, nik.morgan wrote:
Ian Smith wrote:


Machines have trouble with wind-up in butted spokes (to the
degree that most machine-built wheels use unbutted) and do a
less thorough job of stress-relieving. They optimise to
position rather than position and tension, generally.

It may technically be possible to make a machine that builds
wheels as good as a handbuilt wheel, but the machines that build
wheels in practice don't produce as good a wheel as a human. A
human takes 10 to 100 times longer, but produces a better wheel
and can do so reliably with a wider range of components,
including those that give a more durable wheel.

Complete crap, no wonder you cyclists part with vast sums of
money for simple engineering if that is the type of bull**** you
accept as gospel.


You do so enjoy showing off your ignorance and stupidity, don't
you Mr Moron? Still, you know what they say - if you've got it,
flaunt it.


Please keep your childish personal attacks to yourself, displaying
them shows you as the moron not me.


"Keep your childish personal attacks to yourself, you moron"?

Yet to be shown why hand built wheels are better then machine built
ones, plenty of bull**** about butt or otherwise spokes but no
reasons.


Sorry, I assumed you had at least the basic knowledge about wheels to
understand the benefit of butted spokes.

Machine built wheels are almost invariably plain spokes.

Using butted spokes gives a wheel that is more durable, it maintains
its true better and is less prone to spoke breakage.

A wheel that maintains its true is better because in general it is
advantageous if the wheels are planar circles centred on the axle
attachments. Do you need the reasons for that explaining too?

Machine built wheel will last just as long as any other


No.

and are far cheaper,


Not if you make them yourself, which is rather the point of attending
a wheel building course, which is where the thread started.


--
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|o o|
|/ \|
  #26  
Old January 30th 13, 10:49 AM posted to uk.rec.cycling
BrianW[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,005
Default Bicycle Wheel Building Workshop - Saturday 23 Feb 2013 in Cambridge

On Jan 29, 10:17*pm, nik.morgan wrote:
BrianW wrote:
On Jan 27, 6:32 pm, nik.morgan wrote:
Ian Smith wrote:
On Sat, 26 Jan 2013 04:34:15 -0600, nik.morgan wrote:
*Dave - Cyclists VOR wrote:
On 25/01/2013 18:10, Ian Smith wrote:
On Thu, 24 Jan 2013 09:09:34 -0000, John Benn wrote:


* Why don't you just buy the wheels ready-made?


Because you get better wheels building them yourself.


* I cannot see what the point of building your own wheels is. *For
* £85, you could buy several of them.


Hand-built wheels are significantly better than machine built wheels.


Yes of course they are. *What an idiot.


*In what way are they better, a machine will line up the components a lot
*more accurately than an unskilled human?


Whether a machine builds wheels better than an unskilled human is
completely irrelevant. *Whether the machine builds wheels better than
a moderately skilled human is what matters.


Machines have trouble with wind-up in butted spokes (to the degree
that most machine-built wheels use unbutted) and do a less thorough
job of stress-relieving. *They optimise to position rather than
position and tension, generally.


It may technically be possible to make a machine that builds wheels as
good as a handbuilt wheel, but the machines that build wheels in
practice don't produce as good a wheel as a human. *A human takes 10
to 100 times longer, but produces a better wheel and can do so
reliably with a wider range of components, including those that give a
more durable wheel.


regards, * Ian SMith


Complete crap, no wonder you cyclists part with vast sums of money for
simple engineering if that is the type of bull**** you accept as gospel.


You do so enjoy showing off your ignorance and stupidity, don't you Mr
Moron? Still, you know what they say - if you've got it, flaunt it.


Please keep your childish personal attacks to yourself, displaying them
shows you as the moron not me.

Yet to be shown why hand built wheels are better then machine built ones,
plenty of bull**** about butt or otherwise spokes but no reasons. Machine
built wheel will last just as long as any other and are far cheaper, I fail
to see the attraction but I am ignoring the pose factor.


I don't know anything about hand built wheels either. Unlike you,
though, Mr Moron, I'm prepared to accept that there may be things I
don't know about. You seem to be adopting the view that "If I don't
understand it, it can't be important". Trouble is, that would mean
that in MoronWorld nothing is important.
  #27  
Old January 30th 13, 10:51 AM posted to uk.rec.cycling
BrianW[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,005
Default Bicycle Wheel Building Workshop - Saturday 23 Feb 2013 in Cambridge

On Jan 30, 7:19*am, Ian Smith wrote:
On Tue, 29 Jan 2013 16:17:18 -0600, nik.morgan wrote:
*BrianW wrote:
On Jan 27, 6:32 pm, nik.morgan wrote:
Ian Smith wrote:
Machines have trouble with wind-up in butted spokes (to the
degree that most machine-built wheels use unbutted) and do a
less thorough job of stress-relieving. *They optimise to
position rather than position and tension, generally.


It may technically be possible to make a machine that builds
wheels as good as a handbuilt wheel, but the machines that build
wheels in practice don't produce as good a wheel as a human. *A
human takes 10 to 100 times longer, but produces a better wheel
and can do so reliably with a wider range of components,
including those that give a more durable wheel.


Complete crap, no wonder you cyclists part with vast sums of
money for simple engineering if that is the type of bull**** you
accept as gospel.


You do so enjoy showing off your ignorance and stupidity, don't
you Mr Moron? Still, you know what they say - if you've got it,
flaunt it.


*Please keep your childish personal attacks to yourself, displaying
*them shows you as the moron not me.


"Keep your childish personal attacks to yourself, you moron"?

*Yet to be shown why hand built wheels are better then machine built
*ones, plenty of bull**** about butt or otherwise spokes but no
*reasons.


Sorry, I assumed you had at least the basic knowledge about wheels to
understand the benefit of butted spokes.


Always a dangerous assumption when it comes to Mr Nik "Morgan" Moron.
He's proud of his ignorance and stupidity, and likes to show it off at
every opportunity.
  #28  
Old January 30th 13, 11:00 AM posted to uk.rec.cycling
davethedave[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 602
Default Bicycle Wheel Building Workshop - Saturday 23 Feb 2013 inCambridge

On Wed, 30 Jan 2013 07:19:44 +0000, Ian Smith wrote:

Yet to be shown why hand built wheels are better then machine built
ones, plenty of bull**** about butt or otherwise spokes but no
reasons.


Sorry, I assumed you had at least the basic knowledge about wheels to
understand the benefit of butted spokes.

Machine built wheels are almost invariably plain spokes.

Using butted spokes gives a wheel that is more durable, it maintains its
true better and is less prone to spoke breakage.



You missed more compliant and smoother ride.


A wheel that maintains its true is better because in general it is
advantageous if the wheels are planar circles centred on the axle
attachments. Do you need the reasons for that explaining too?

Machine built wheel will last just as long as any other


No.

and are far cheaper,


Not if you make them yourself, which is rather the point of attending a
wheel building course, which is where the thread started.


A nice relaxing activity for a cold wet winters day. Everyone should
build at least one wheel in their life.
--
davethedave
  #29  
Old January 30th 13, 12:24 PM posted to uk.rec.cycling
John Benn
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 865
Default Bicycle Wheel Building Workshop - Saturday 23 Feb 2013 in Cambridge

"BrianW" wrote in message
...
On Jan 29, 10:17 pm, nik.morgan wrote:
BrianW wrote:
On Jan 27, 6:32 pm, nik.morgan wrote:
Ian Smith wrote:
On Sat, 26 Jan 2013 04:34:15 -0600, nik.morgan
wrote:
Dave - Cyclists VOR wrote:
On 25/01/2013 18:10, Ian Smith wrote:
On Thu, 24 Jan 2013 09:09:34 -0000, John Benn
wrote:


Why don't you just buy the wheels ready-made?


Because you get better wheels building them yourself.


I cannot see what the point of building your own wheels is.
For
£85, you could buy several of them.


Hand-built wheels are significantly better than machine built
wheels.


Yes of course they are. What an idiot.


In what way are they better, a machine will line up the components
a lot
more accurately than an unskilled human?


Whether a machine builds wheels better than an unskilled human is
completely irrelevant. Whether the machine builds wheels better than
a moderately skilled human is what matters.


Machines have trouble with wind-up in butted spokes (to the degree
that most machine-built wheels use unbutted) and do a less thorough
job of stress-relieving. They optimise to position rather than
position and tension, generally.


It may technically be possible to make a machine that builds wheels
as
good as a handbuilt wheel, but the machines that build wheels in
practice don't produce as good a wheel as a human. A human takes 10
to 100 times longer, but produces a better wheel and can do so
reliably with a wider range of components, including those that give
a
more durable wheel.


regards, Ian SMith


Complete crap, no wonder you cyclists part with vast sums of money for
simple engineering if that is the type of bull**** you accept as
gospel.


You do so enjoy showing off your ignorance and stupidity, don't you Mr
Moron? Still, you know what they say - if you've got it, flaunt it.


Please keep your childish personal attacks to yourself, displaying them
shows you as the moron not me.

Yet to be shown why hand built wheels are better then machine built ones,
plenty of bull**** about butt or otherwise spokes but no reasons. Machine
built wheel will last just as long as any other and are far cheaper, I
fail
to see the attraction but I am ignoring the pose factor.


I don't know anything about hand built wheels either. Unlike you,
though, Mr Moron, I'm prepared to accept that there may be things I
don't know about. You seem to be adopting the view that "If I don't
understand it, it can't be important". Trouble is, that would mean
that in MoronWorld nothing is important.


Is the kindergarten closed today?

  #30  
Old January 30th 13, 01:48 PM posted to uk.rec.cycling
BrianW[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,005
Default Bicycle Wheel Building Workshop - Saturday 23 Feb 2013 in Cambridge

On Jan 30, 11:24*am, "John Benn" wrote:
"BrianW" wrote in message

...





On Jan 29, 10:17 pm, nik.morgan wrote:
BrianW wrote:
On Jan 27, 6:32 pm, nik.morgan wrote:
Ian Smith wrote:
On Sat, 26 Jan 2013 04:34:15 -0600, nik.morgan
wrote:
*Dave - Cyclists VOR wrote:
On 25/01/2013 18:10, Ian Smith wrote:
On Thu, 24 Jan 2013 09:09:34 -0000, John Benn
wrote:


* Why don't you just buy the wheels ready-made?


Because you get better wheels building them yourself.


* I cannot see what the point of building your own wheels is..
For
* £85, you could buy several of them.


Hand-built wheels are significantly better than machine built
wheels.


Yes of course they are. *What an idiot.


*In what way are they better, a machine will line up the components
a lot
*more accurately than an unskilled human?


Whether a machine builds wheels better than an unskilled human is
completely irrelevant. *Whether the machine builds wheels better than
a moderately skilled human is what matters.


Machines have trouble with wind-up in butted spokes (to the degree
that most machine-built wheels use unbutted) and do a less thorough
job of stress-relieving. *They optimise to position rather than
position and tension, generally.


It may technically be possible to make a machine that builds wheels
as
good as a handbuilt wheel, but the machines that build wheels in
practice don't produce as good a wheel as a human. *A human takes 10
to 100 times longer, but produces a better wheel and can do so
reliably with a wider range of components, including those that give
a
more durable wheel.


regards, * Ian SMith


Complete crap, no wonder you cyclists part with vast sums of money for
simple engineering if that is the type of bull**** you accept as
gospel.


You do so enjoy showing off your ignorance and stupidity, don't you Mr
Moron? Still, you know what they say - if you've got it, flaunt it.


Please keep your childish personal attacks to yourself, displaying them
shows you as the moron not me.


Yet to be shown why hand built wheels are better then machine built ones,
plenty of bull**** about butt or otherwise spokes but no reasons. Machine
built wheel will last just as long as any other and are far cheaper, I
fail
to see the attraction but I am ignoring the pose factor.


I don't know anything about hand built wheels either. Unlike you,
though, Mr Moron, I'm prepared to accept that there may be things I
don't know about. You seem to be adopting the view that "If I don't
understand it, it can't be important". Trouble is, that would mean
that in MoronWorld nothing is important.


Is the kindergarten closed today?


I don't think so - Mr Moron hasn't replied yet so perhaps that's where
he is.
 




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