Bicycle Wheel Building Workshop - Saturday 23 Feb 2013 in Cambridge

BrianW wrote:
On Jan 29, 10:17 pm, nik.morgan wrote:
BrianW wrote:
On Jan 27, 6:32 pm, nik.morgan wrote:
Ian Smith wrote:
On Sat, 26 Jan 2013 04:34:15 -0600, nik.morgan wrote:
Dave - Cyclists VOR wrote:
On 25/01/2013 18:10, Ian Smith wrote:
On Thu, 24 Jan 2013 09:09:34 -0000, John Benn wrote:

Why don't you just buy the wheels ready-made?

Because you get better wheels building them yourself.

I cannot see what the point of building your own wheels is. For
£85, you could buy several of them.

Hand-built wheels are significantly better than machine built wheels.

Yes of course they are. What an idiot.

In what way are they better, a machine will line up the components a lot
more accurately than an unskilled human?

Whether a machine builds wheels better than an unskilled human is
completely irrelevant. Whether the machine builds wheels better than
a moderately skilled human is what matters.

Machines have trouble with wind-up in butted spokes (to the degree
that most machine-built wheels use unbutted) and do a less thorough
job of stress-relieving. They optimise to position rather than
position and tension, generally.

It may technically be possible to make a machine that builds wheels as
good as a handbuilt wheel, but the machines that build wheels in
practice don't produce as good a wheel as a human. A human takes 10
to 100 times longer, but produces a better wheel and can do so
reliably with a wider range of components, including those that give a
more durable wheel.

regards, Ian SMith

Complete crap, no wonder you cyclists part with vast sums of money for
simple engineering if that is the type of bull**** you accept as gospel.

You do so enjoy showing off your ignorance and stupidity, don't you Mr
Moron? Still, you know what they say - if you've got it, flaunt it.

Please keep your childish personal attacks to yourself, displaying them
shows you as the moron not me.

Yet to be shown why hand built wheels are better then machine built ones,
plenty of bull**** about butt or otherwise spokes but no reasons. Machine
built wheel will last just as long as any other and are far cheaper, I fail
to see the attraction but I am ignoring the pose factor.

I don't know anything about hand built wheels either. Unlike you,
though, Mr Moron, I'm prepared to accept that there may be things I
don't know about. You seem to be adopting the view that "If I don't
understand it, it can't be important". Trouble is, that would mean
that in MoronWorld nothing is important.

I suppose that's why after my training and service in the RN and my time in
a design office for an engineering company I managed o know nothing about
engineering. I wonder who is the moron here as its certainly not me.
--
ennemm

BrianW wrote:
On Jan 30, 11:24 am, "John Benn" wrote:
"BrianW" wrote in message

...





On Jan 29, 10:17 pm, nik.morgan wrote:
BrianW wrote:
On Jan 27, 6:32 pm, nik.morgan wrote:
Ian Smith wrote:
On Sat, 26 Jan 2013 04:34:15 -0600, nik.morgan
wrote:
Dave - Cyclists VOR wrote:
On 25/01/2013 18:10, Ian Smith wrote:
On Thu, 24 Jan 2013 09:09:34 -0000, John Benn
wrote:

Why don't you just buy the wheels ready-made?

Because you get better wheels building them yourself.

I cannot see what the point of building your own wheels is.
For
£85, you could buy several of them.

Hand-built wheels are significantly better than machine built
wheels.

Yes of course they are. What an idiot.

In what way are they better, a machine will line up the components
a lot
more accurately than an unskilled human?

Whether a machine builds wheels better than an unskilled human is
completely irrelevant. Whether the machine builds wheels better than
a moderately skilled human is what matters.

Machines have trouble with wind-up in butted spokes (to the degree
that most machine-built wheels use unbutted) and do a less thorough
job of stress-relieving. They optimise to position rather than
position and tension, generally.

It may technically be possible to make a machine that builds wheels
as
good as a handbuilt wheel, but the machines that build wheels in
practice don't produce as good a wheel as a human. A human takes 10
to 100 times longer, but produces a better wheel and can do so
reliably with a wider range of components, including those that give
a
more durable wheel.

regards, Ian SMith

Complete crap, no wonder you cyclists part with vast sums of money for
simple engineering if that is the type of bull**** you accept as
gospel.

You do so enjoy showing off your ignorance and stupidity, don't you Mr
Moron? Still, you know what they say - if you've got it, flaunt it.

Please keep your childish personal attacks to yourself, displaying them
shows you as the moron not me.

Yet to be shown why hand built wheels are better then machine built ones,
plenty of bull**** about butt or otherwise spokes but no reasons. Machine
built wheel will last just as long as any other and are far cheaper, I
fail
to see the attraction but I am ignoring the pose factor.

I don't know anything about hand built wheels either. Unlike you,
though, Mr Moron, I'm prepared to accept that there may be things I
don't know about. You seem to be adopting the view that "If I don't
understand it, it can't be important". Trouble is, that would mean
that in MoronWorld nothing is important.

Is the kindergarten closed today?

I don't think so - Mr Moron hasn't replied yet so perhaps that's where
he is.

I choose to go to work, even though I am retired, thus I was in Manchester
and unable to reply to your childish drivel, I shall not be replying to any
more of it though I may read it should I feel like a smile.
--
ennemm

On 24 Jan, 09:09, "John Benn" wrote:
wrote in message

...









This is a practical workshop where you learn how to assemble, true and
optimise bicycle wheels using proven techniques based on sound principles.
I concentrate on teaching you how to build strong and durable wheels of ’standard’
(eg. cross-3) pattern. Radial, mixed and other exotic lacing patterns are
not demonstrated, but the skills you learn provide the best foundation for
attempting them later if you wish.

Whether you simply want to replace an occasional broken spoke, true
existing wheels or hand build a complete wheel, this workshop gives you
the knowledge, skills and confidence you need in a controlled environment.

"nik.morgan" wrote in message
...

BrianW wrote:
On Jan 29, 10:17 pm, nik.morgan wrote:
BrianW wrote:
On Jan 27, 6:32 pm, nik.morgan wrote:
Ian Smith wrote:
On Sat, 26 Jan 2013 04:34:15 -0600, nik.morgan wrote:
Dave - Cyclists VOR wrote:
On 25/01/2013 18:10, Ian Smith wrote:
On Thu, 24 Jan 2013 09:09:34 -0000, John Benn
wrote:

Why don't you just buy the wheels ready-made?

Because you get better wheels building them yourself.

I cannot see what the point of building your own wheels is. For
£85, you could buy several of them.

Hand-built wheels are significantly better than machine built
wheels.

Yes of course they are. What an idiot.

In what way are they better, a machine will line up the components a
lot
more accurately than an unskilled human?

Whether a machine builds wheels better than an unskilled human is
completely irrelevant. Whether the machine builds wheels better than
a moderately skilled human is what matters.

Machines have trouble with wind-up in butted spokes (to the degree
that most machine-built wheels use unbutted) and do a less thorough
job of stress-relieving. They optimise to position rather than
position and tension, generally.

It may technically be possible to make a machine that builds wheels as
good as a handbuilt wheel, but the machines that build wheels in
practice don't produce as good a wheel as a human. A human takes 10
to 100 times longer, but produces a better wheel and can do so
reliably with a wider range of components, including those that give a
more durable wheel.

regards, Ian SMith

Complete crap, no wonder you cyclists part with vast sums of money for
simple engineering if that is the type of bull**** you accept as
gospel.

You do so enjoy showing off your ignorance and stupidity, don't you Mr
Moron? Still, you know what they say - if you've got it, flaunt it.

Please keep your childish personal attacks to yourself, displaying them
shows you as the moron not me.

Yet to be shown why hand built wheels are better then machine built ones,
plenty of bull**** about butt or otherwise spokes but no reasons. Machine
built wheel will last just as long as any other and are far cheaper, I
fail
to see the attraction but I am ignoring the pose factor.

I don't know anything about hand built wheels either. Unlike you,
though, Mr Moron, I'm prepared to accept that there may be things I
don't know about. You seem to be adopting the view that "If I don't
understand it, it can't be important". Trouble is, that would mean
that in MoronWorld nothing is important.

I suppose that's why after my training and service in the RN and my time in
a design office for an engineering company I managed o know nothing about
engineering. I wonder who is the moron here as its certainly not me.

I wouldn't lose any sleep over it - they're just doing psycholist's Standard
operating Procedure (SOP).
When they start losing an argument they always revert to insults.

On Jan 25, 12:19*am, Phil W Lee wrote:
"John Benn" considered Thu, 24 Jan 2013
09:09:34 -0000 the perfect time to write:









wrote in message
...
This is a practical workshop where you learn how to assemble, true and
optimise bicycle wheels using proven techniques based on sound principles.
I concentrate on teaching you how to build strong and durable wheels of ’standard’
(eg. cross-3) pattern. Radial, mixed and other exotic lacing patterns are
not demonstrated, but the skills you learn provide the best foundation for
attempting them later if you wish.

Whether you simply want to replace an occasional broken spoke, true
existing wheels or hand build a complete wheel, this workshop gives you
the knowledge, skills and confidence you need in a controlled environment.
I restrict class size to ensure a high teacher-student ratio.

Details
------
Date: * * * *Sat 23/2/13
Time: * * * *10am-5pm
Location: * *Queen Edith Community Primary School, Godwin Way,
* * * * * * Cambridge, CB1 8QP
Cost: * * * *£85

You can download the current Information Sheet he
http://www.davidwgreen.talktalk.net/..._1day_info.pdf

Enrolment details and questions
----------------------------------------------
Please email davidwgreenatoneteldotcom

Why don't you just buy the wheels ready-made?

I cannot see what the point of building your own wheels is. *For £85, you
could buy several of them.

Which would be only as good as you paid for, and you would gain no
knowledge or experience in how to repair them if (when?) you ever
needed to.
Knowing how to build a wheel properly means you also know how to
repair one, whether that be due to a failure out on the road (or on
tour), or simply to replace rim, hub, or spokes as the need becomes
apparent during normal maintenance.

trouble is, the stated construction method has proved to be inferior.

On Jan 30, 1:53*pm, nik.morgan wrote:
BrianW wrote:
On Jan 29, 10:17 pm, nik.morgan wrote:
BrianW wrote:
On Jan 27, 6:32 pm, nik.morgan wrote:
Ian Smith wrote:
On Sat, 26 Jan 2013 04:34:15 -0600, nik.morgan wrote:
*Dave - Cyclists VOR wrote:
On 25/01/2013 18:10, Ian Smith wrote:
On Thu, 24 Jan 2013 09:09:34 -0000, John Benn wrote:

* Why don't you just buy the wheels ready-made?

Because you get better wheels building them yourself.

* I cannot see what the point of building your own wheels is. *For
* £85, you could buy several of them.

Hand-built wheels are significantly better than machine built wheels.

Yes of course they are. *What an idiot.

*In what way are they better, a machine will line up the components a lot
*more accurately than an unskilled human?

Whether a machine builds wheels better than an unskilled human is
completely irrelevant. *Whether the machine builds wheels better than
a moderately skilled human is what matters.

Machines have trouble with wind-up in butted spokes (to the degree
that most machine-built wheels use unbutted) and do a less thorough
job of stress-relieving. *They optimise to position rather than
position and tension, generally.

It may technically be possible to make a machine that builds wheels as
good as a handbuilt wheel, but the machines that build wheels in
practice don't produce as good a wheel as a human. *A human takes 10
to 100 times longer, but produces a better wheel and can do so
reliably with a wider range of components, including those that give a
more durable wheel.

regards, * Ian SMith

Complete crap, no wonder you cyclists part with vast sums of money for
simple engineering if that is the type of bull**** you accept as gospel.

You do so enjoy showing off your ignorance and stupidity, don't you Mr
Moron? Still, you know what they say - if you've got it, flaunt it.

Please keep your childish personal attacks to yourself, displaying them
shows you as the moron not me.

Yet to be shown why hand built wheels are better then machine built ones,
plenty of bull**** about butt or otherwise spokes but no reasons. Machine
built wheel will last just as long as any other and are far cheaper, I fail
to see the attraction but I am ignoring the pose factor.

I don't know anything about hand built wheels either. Unlike you,
though, Mr Moron, I'm prepared to accept that there may be things I
don't know about. You seem to be adopting the view that "If I don't
understand it, it can't be important". Trouble is, that would mean
that in MoronWorld nothing is important.

I suppose that's why after my training and service in the RN and my time in
a design office for an engineering company I managed o know nothing about
engineering. I wonder who is the moron here as its certainly not me.

Interesting. How many bike wheels did you look at, consider, design,
build etc in your career?

On Jan 25, 7:00*am, Bret Cahill wrote:
This is a practical workshop where you learn how to assemble, true and
optimise bicycle wheels using proven techniques based on sound principles.
I concentrate on teaching you how to build strong and durable wheels of ’standard’
(eg. cross-3) pattern. Radial, mixed and other exotic lacing patterns are
not demonstrated, but the skills you learn provide the best foundation for
attempting them later if you wish.

Whether you simply want to replace an occasional broken spoke, true
existing wheels or hand build a complete wheel, this workshop gives you
the knowledge, skills and confidence you need in a controlled environment.
I restrict class size to ensure a high teacher-student ratio.

Details
------
Date: * * * *Sat 23/2/13
Time: * * * *10am-5pm
Location: * *Queen Edith Community Primary School, Godwin Way,
* * * * * * Cambridge, CB1 8QP
Cost: * * * *£85

You can download the current Information Sheet he
http://www.davidwgreen.talktalk.net/..._1day_info.pdf

Enrolment details and questions
----------------------------------------------
Please email davidwgreenatoneteldotcom

Why don't you just buy the wheels ready-made?

I cannot see what the point of building your own wheels is. *For £85, you
could buy several of them.

Which would be only as good as you paid for, and you would gain no
knowledge or experience in how to repair them if (when?) you ever
needed to.
Knowing how to build a wheel properly means you also know how to
repair one, whether that be due to a failure out on the road (or on
tour), or simply to replace rim, hub, or spokes as the need becomes
apparent during normal maintenance.

I strung a pair of light weight sew ups [ ~ 1 kg /wheel]
Including tyres and glue?

I don't recall the weight of mine any more. could be 9oz of spokes/
nipples, 9oz hub, 14oz rrim and 9oz tyre. that's 43oz for a start.
Er 1.2kg for a front wheel , add another 1lb or so to account for the
freewheel for the back wheel.

and was so
confident of my abilities I tested them out by going down to the
Roanoke River hitting RR tracks a 60 km/hr.
??? Level crossing? Height of track above road? At all?

Without a helmet.

I tend to use a Belgian training cap which keeps my head warm. I do
also have balaclavas, but I don't ever ride in freezing weather any
more.


I still use the wheels when, in a pinch, I need a spare.

Bret Cahill

On Jan 27, 3:58*pm, Ian Smith wrote:
On Sat, 26 Jan 2013 04:34:15 -0600, nik.morgan wrote:
*Dave - Cyclists VOR wrote:
On 25/01/2013 18:10, Ian Smith wrote:
On Thu, 24 Jan 2013 09:09:34 -0000, John Benn wrote:

* Why don't you just buy the wheels ready-made?

Because you get better wheels building them yourself.

* I cannot see what the point of building your own wheels is. *For
* £85, you could buy several of them.

Hand-built wheels are significantly better than machine built wheels..

Yes of course they are. *What an idiot.

*In what way are they better, a machine will line up the components a lot
*more accurately than an unskilled human?

Whether a machine builds wheels better than an unskilled human is
completely irrelevant. *Whether the machine builds wheels better than
a moderately skilled human is what matters.

Machines have trouble with wind-up in butted spokes (to the degree

First error. Most current day cyclists have lard arses and in no way
should be usin gthe thinner gauges that come with "butted" spokes.

that most machine-built wheels use unbutted) and do a less thorough
job of stress-relieving.
Oh dear, you still falllng for that?

*They optimise to position rather than
position and tension, generally.

Single wall rims true up perfectly well without resorting to tricks.

It may technically be possible to make a machine that builds wheels as
good as a handbuilt wheel, but the machines that build wheels in
practice don't produce as good a wheel as a human. *A human takes 10
to 100 times longer,

The last wheels I built were done within 10 minutes each. Show me
this 6-second wheel build. It's not possible.

but produces a better wheel and can do so

In most hands, the wheels are inferior than machine-built.

reliably with a wider range of components, including those that give a
more durable wheel.



regards, * Ian SMith
--
* |\ /| * * *no .sig
* |o o|
* |/ \|

On Jan 27, 4:11*pm, Dave - Cyclists VOR
wrote:
On 27/01/2013 15:58, Ian Smith wrote:









On Sat, 26 Jan 2013 04:34:15 -0600, nik.morgan wrote:
* Dave - Cyclists VOR wrote:
On 25/01/2013 18:10, Ian Smith wrote:
On Thu, 24 Jan 2013 09:09:34 -0000, John Benn wrote:

* *Why don't you just buy the wheels ready-made?

Because you get better wheels building them yourself.

* *I cannot see what the point of building your own wheels is. *For
* *£85, you could buy several of them.

Hand-built wheels are significantly better than machine built wheels..

Yes of course they are. *What an idiot.

* In what way are they better, a machine will line up the components a lot
* more accurately than an unskilled human?

Whether a machine builds wheels better than an unskilled human is
completely irrelevant. *Whether the machine builds wheels better than
a moderately skilled human is what matters.

Machines have trouble with wind-up in butted spokes (to the degree
that most machine-built wheels use unbutted) and do a less thorough
job of stress-relieving. *They optimise to position rather than
position and tension, generally.

It may technically be possible to make a machine that builds wheels as
good as a handbuilt wheel, but the machines that build wheels in
practice don't produce as good a wheel as a human. *A human takes 10
to 100 times longer, but produces a better wheel and can do so
reliably with a wider range of components, including those that give a
more durable wheel.

regards, * Ian SMith

I didn't realise cycle manufacture was that far behind the times.

It's not. High-qualty machine-built wheels have been with us for
thirty years, he's ignoring the obvious.


Nowhere near the highly advanced automotive manufacturing techniques.


http://borranifelgen.de/images/stories/mas_quat/4.jpg

you gonna get a set for the van or you given that up as well?


--
Dave - Cyclists VOR. "Many people barely recognise the bicycle as a
legitimate mode of transport; it is either a toy for children or a
vehicle fit only for the poor and/or strange," Dave Horton, of Lancaster
University, wrote in an interim assessment of the Understanding Walking
and Cycling study. "For them, cycling is a bit embarrassing, they fail
to see its purpose, and have no interest in integrating it into their
lives, certainly on a regular basis."

On Jan 28, 12:52*am, Ian Smith wrote:
On Sun, 27 Jan 2013 12:32:04 -0600, nik.morgan wrote:
*Ian Smith wrote:
On Sat, 26 Jan 2013 04:34:15 -0600, nik.morgan wrote:

*In what way are they better, a machine will line up the
*components a lot more accurately than an unskilled human?

Whether a machine builds wheels better than an unskilled human is
completely irrelevant. *Whether the machine builds wheels better
than a moderately skilled human is what matters.

Machines have trouble with wind-up in butted spokes (to the degree
that most machine-built wheels use unbutted) and do a less
thorough job of stress-relieving. *They optimise to position
rather than position and tension, generally.

It may technically be possible to make a machine that builds
wheels as good as a handbuilt wheel, but the machines that build
wheels in practice don't produce as good a wheel as a human. *A
human takes 10 to 100 times longer, but produces a better wheel
and can do so reliably with a wider range of components, including
those that give a more durable wheel.

*Complete crap, no wonder you cyclists part with vast sums of money
*for simple engineering if that is the type of bull**** you accept
*as gospel.

No, I do not "accept" it - I experience it. *Wheels I build are better
than mass-produced machine-built wheels, and I am only slightly
experienced at wheel building.

Are you saying it's complete crap that butted spokes make a more
durable wheel?

I say it is.

Or complete crap that most machine built wheels use
unbutted?

Straight 14swg is better choice for an overweight rider, in many cases
the most appropriate spoke gauge.

Perhaps it's that a machine trues by position that you
think is not true? *Do you think you could actually explain what you
disagree with, rather than just pronouncing that it must all be
nonsense?

I have, many times.


And the point is that I don't part with vast sums of money for simple
engineering - I build my own wheels, and get a better wheel than if I
parted with money to let a machine in the far east build the wheel for
me.

as long as your convinced.

*All but the first wheel I built has been better than any of the
machine built wheels I have had. *That's personal first-hand
experience, not something I accept because I've been told.

of course it is "better".

But I'm sure your guesswork is much more compelling than mere actual
experience.