Who Has Gone the Distance?

MagillaGorilla wrote:

The problem I have with the diagnosis of asthma is its subjective.

It's not. They measure your air flow before and after administering a
bronchodilator. If your air flow improves you are asthmatic.
Bronchodilators don't affect the air flow of non-asthmatics.

Bret

MagillaGorilla wrote:
Carl Sundquist wrote:
MagillaGorilla wrote:

Carl Sundquist wrote:

MagillaGorilla wrote:
Carl Sundquist wrote:
MagillaGorilla wrote:
Carl Sundquist wrote:

MagillaGorilla wrote:
Is there anybody in here who has actually gone the distance
with the
monkey in a thread?

Magilla Gorilla
Undefeated Heavyweight Champion of the World
39-0
34 KO's

You mean like why WADA allows for TUEs on asthma inhalers?

Tell me when you're ready for more.
I could go for a nice WADA TUE thread right now, to be honest.
However,
my recollection is that TUE stands for "reorder my clenbuterol on
TUEsday."

What else is there to discuss?

Magilla

As I understand it, you are strongly against riders, regardless
whether
they are asthmatic or not, using inhalers during competition.

Correct...there is actually no such thing as asthma. Elite athletes
define asthma as when their lungs burn towards the end of a 120
mile Pro
Tour road race when they're in the break. If they get anything but
first place in the sprint, they call the lung burn they experience
int
he sprint "asthma." In fact, so does the winner (Allesandro Potato).

They then go to a doctor and get him or her to rubber stamp it.
That's
how 50% of the Euro pros become "asthmatics." There's nothing else
involved other than a declaration from the athlete, which is followed
immediately by a lifelong prescription from their dealer doctor.

Magilla

I disagree with you about the existence of asthma. I do not disagree
with you about the prevalence of "asthmatics" in the peloton. The
recognition and diagnosis of asthma predated inhalers use/abuse in
sport
and having been diagnosed in people who have nothing to gain other
than
the alleviation of their symptoms by using an inhaler.

I have been diagnosed with asthma. It occurs primarily during the
pollen
season in the spring. Around here, there are days in the springtime
when
there is so much pollen in the air that it tints every horizontal
surface with a thin sickly pale green coating. I have had asthma
attacks
while at my desk at work, at the movies, as well as cutting the grass.
They are not severe enough to be life threatening, but definitely
restrictive and make breathing a labored effort. An inhaler can
alleviate those problems. Fortunately this past spring, I began to use
Singulair as a preventative on an as needed basis and I did not
experience asthma problems during those times. I mainly used Singular
when I predicted that I would need it (including the races I did in
the
spring and at nights when I was wheezing) instead of taking it rote
every day. If I had an asthma attack when I was not taking
Singulair, I
would just use the inhaler. I did not use or need an inhaler at all
for
competition this year.

You are in a very small minority when you say that asthma does not
exist.

I have some good news for you, Carl. Based upon what you say, you
don't have
asthma. What you have is what anyone would have when they breathe
in foreign
particles into their lungs.

If you are a fireman and breathe in smoke and then cough, you don't
have
asthma. The pollen, according to you, was so thick it put a coating
of snow 7
feet deep on any horizontal surface. Well, breathing that in and
wheezing is
not asthma. That's basically what coal miner's did in the 1920's which
resulted in black lung. Well, you have pollen lung.

The problem I have with the diagnosis of asthma is its subjective.
It's like
Greg LeMond's "blood disease" that he claimed was so serious, it
only allowed
him to get 7th in the Tour de France. That's a ****ing joke.

Well, I can't for the life of me imagine how serious a blood problem
he could
have if it allowed him to beat 193 other pro cyclists, most of whom
were
probably on EPO. I mean, imagine what such symptoms would feel like
when only
6 other guys in the world can drop you on a climb (???) But if you
remember
Lemon D, he was confident he had a "blood disease." His only
symptom: getting
7th in the Tour de France.

I would never want to be in the majority. The majority votes for
Prop 8,
thinks the world was created 6,000 years ago, and believes in a Sky
Daddy.

Let me ask you something, Carl - do you think this girl has asthma now:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GsE4qEfEfO4

Magilla


Hahaha.

Here's your litmus test - if asthma does not exist, and even if it
existed purely as a means for big pharma to draw money out of your
pocket, why do insurance companies pay for the treatment of asthma?

This is a good question, Carl. Did everyone hear the question? Let me
repeat it in case the people in the back row didn't hear it. /*Carl
wants to know why insurance companies would pay for a treatment for
asthma, if it's supposedly not a real ailment, as I asseverate. */

This is a good question, Carl.

Treating people for asthma consists of writing them a 'script' for a
cheap inhaler. Those inhalers are sold to doctors by buxom
ex-cheerleaders who prey upon male doctors' sexual proclivities at the
expense of their medical judgment and best interests of their
patients. The patient is nothing but a prop in the play of the
doctor-pharma relationship. Insurance companies pay this without
protest because they love a cheap, finite, turnkey treatment plan that
is completely resolved by Rx and does not result in expensive, long-term
diagnostics or treatments. They also realize it's cheaper to treat it
that way than to actually treat the true cause of asthma, which would
entail undergoing years of psychoanalysis.


Magilla

references:
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/11/28/business/28cheer.html


The drug companies profit margin on the "cheap inhalers" is puny because
the patent has expired, so small, category 3 equivalent drug companies
(who do not hire cheerleaders) manufacture them. Big Pharma wants you to
buy The Latest And Greatest and that's where the cheerleaders come in. A
quick Google check shows an internet pharmacy selling 10mg Singulair
goes for roughly $41 for 30 pills. Compare that to a generic albuterol
inhaler goes for $15, good for 200 doses, $9 if you buy 6 inhalers at a
time.

I'd bet an MRI could accurately determine restricted airways. But why
should insurance pay for that when 99+% of the people who go to the
doctor for asthma symptoms have no ulterior motive and a spirometer can
indicate the same thing? Where are the statistics showing there are
enough people abusing asthma drugs for the insurance companies to even
consider encouraging doctors to write scripts instead of psychoanalysis?
Where is the outcry from the psychologists?

"Carl Sundquist" wrote in message
...
MagillaGorilla wrote:

Treating people for asthma consists of writing them a 'script' for a
cheap inhaler. Those inhalers are sold to doctors by buxom
ex-cheerleaders who prey upon male doctors' sexual proclivities at the
expense of their medical judgment and best interests of their patients.

The drug companies profit margin on the "cheap inhalers" is puny because
the patent has expired, so small, category 3 equivalent drug companies
(who do not hire cheerleaders) manufacture them. Big Pharma wants you to
buy The Latest And Greatest and that's where the cheerleaders come in. A
quick Google check shows an internet pharmacy selling 10mg Singulair goes
for roughly $41 for 30 pills. Compare that to a generic albuterol inhaler
goes for $15, good for 200 doses, $9 if you buy 6 inhalers at a time.

Carl, you're arguing with an idiot that doesn't believe that Asthma is a
real disease.

While he's correct that you don't have "real" Asthma, you indeed have
asthmatic symptoms caused by hay fever (allergies) and these can be as bad
or even worse than "real" Asthma upon occasion.

"Bret Wade" wrote in message
...
MagillaGorilla wrote:

The problem I have with the diagnosis of asthma is its subjective.

It's not. They measure your air flow before and after administering a
bronchodilator. If your air flow improves you are asthmatic.
Bronchodilators don't affect the air flow of non-asthmatics.

Almost correct. They also improve the breathing of simple allergic reaction
sufferers. Though it's almost the same thing.

Carl Sundquist wrote:



Let me ask you something, Carl - do you think this girl has asthma now:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GsE4qEfEfO4

Magilla


Hahaha.

Here's your litmus test - if asthma does not exist, and even if it
existed purely as a means for big pharma to draw money out of your
pocket, why do insurance companies pay for the treatment of asthma?

This is a good question, Carl. Did everyone hear the question? Let me
repeat it in case the people in the back row didn't hear it. /*Carl
wants to know why insurance companies would pay for a treatment for
asthma, if it's supposedly not a real ailment, as I asseverate. */

This is a good question, Carl.

Treating people for asthma consists of writing them a 'script' for a
cheap inhaler. Those inhalers are sold to doctors by buxom
ex-cheerleaders who prey upon male doctors' sexual proclivities at the
expense of their medical judgment and best interests of their
patients. The patient is nothing but a prop in the play of the
doctor-pharma relationship. Insurance companies pay this without
protest because they love a cheap, finite, turnkey treatment plan that
is completely resolved by Rx and does not result in expensive, long-term
diagnostics or treatments. They also realize it's cheaper to treat it
that way than to actually treat the true cause of asthma, which would
entail undergoing years of psychoanalysis.


Magilla

references:
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/11/28/business/28cheer.html


The drug companies profit margin on the "cheap inhalers" is puny because
the patent has expired, so small, category 3 equivalent drug companies
(who do not hire cheerleaders) manufacture them. Big Pharma wants you to
buy The Latest And Greatest and that's where the cheerleaders come in. A
quick Google check shows an internet pharmacy selling 10mg Singulair
goes for roughly $41 for 30 pills. Compare that to a generic albuterol
inhaler goes for $15, good for 200 doses, $9 if you buy 6 inhalers at a
time.

I'd bet an MRI could accurately determine restricted airways. But why
should insurance pay for that when 99+% of the people who go to the
doctor for asthma symptoms have no ulterior motive and a spirometer can
indicate the same thing? Where are the statistics showing there are
enough people abusing asthma drugs for the insurance companies to even
consider encouraging doctors to write scripts instead of psychoanalysis?
Where is the outcry from the psychologists?

Psychologists have ADHD, which the allopathic equivalent of asthma.

Most people who go to a doctor and claim asthma are fat, sedentary people who
can't figure out why they are out of breath when they walk up a flight of
stairs. The doctor just wants them out of his office so he can get over to
the marina to take his boat out.

That's how life works, Carl. It's like all those people who go to church and
prayer to a Sky Daddy are gonna be real disappointed when they die and find
nothing.


Magilla

Bret Wade wrote:

MagillaGorilla wrote:

The problem I have with the diagnosis of asthma is its subjective.

It's not. They measure your air flow before and after administering a
bronchodilator. If your air flow improves you are asthmatic.
Bronchodilators don't affect the air flow of non-asthmatics.

Bret

Most asthmatics are diagnosed simply by telling the doctor they have
difficulty breathing. There's no test done. A bronchodilator will open
up anyone's lungs, just like a vasodilator will open up anyone's blood
vessels. I don't know who told you that bronchodilators will not open
up everyone's lungs, but they are wrong.

Cyclists use bronchodilators to "open up" their lungs before a race.
It's a form of organized doping passed on by generations of cyclists..
Albuterol also has steroidal effects.

http://www.chaoscyclingclub.com/foru...1a2e 5a86f06e



Studies have shown that in addition to aiding in the treatment
of asthma, Salbutamol can be used to increase an athlete's
anaerobic power. According to study results, peak power
appeared significantly earlier and was noticeably increased
after Salbutamol use.

Happy Holiday Greetings,


Magilla

MagillaGorilla wrote:
Carl Sundquist wrote:

Let me ask you something, Carl - do you think this girl has asthma now:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GsE4qEfEfO4

Magilla

Hahaha.

Here's your litmus test - if asthma does not exist, and even if it
existed purely as a means for big pharma to draw money out of your
pocket, why do insurance companies pay for the treatment of asthma?

This is a good question, Carl. Did everyone hear the question? Let me
repeat it in case the people in the back row didn't hear it. /*Carl
wants to know why insurance companies would pay for a treatment for
asthma, if it's supposedly not a real ailment, as I asseverate. */

This is a good question, Carl.

Treating people for asthma consists of writing them a 'script' for a
cheap inhaler. Those inhalers are sold to doctors by buxom
ex-cheerleaders who prey upon male doctors' sexual proclivities at the
expense of their medical judgment and best interests of their
patients. The patient is nothing but a prop in the play of the
doctor-pharma relationship. Insurance companies pay this without
protest because they love a cheap, finite, turnkey treatment plan that
is completely resolved by Rx and does not result in expensive, long-term
diagnostics or treatments. They also realize it's cheaper to treat it
that way than to actually treat the true cause of asthma, which would
entail undergoing years of psychoanalysis.


Magilla

references:
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/11/28/business/28cheer.html

The drug companies profit margin on the "cheap inhalers" is puny because
the patent has expired, so small, category 3 equivalent drug companies
(who do not hire cheerleaders) manufacture them. Big Pharma wants you to
buy The Latest And Greatest and that's where the cheerleaders come in. A
quick Google check shows an internet pharmacy selling 10mg Singulair
goes for roughly $41 for 30 pills. Compare that to a generic albuterol
inhaler goes for $15, good for 200 doses, $9 if you buy 6 inhalers at a
time.

I'd bet an MRI could accurately determine restricted airways. But why
should insurance pay for that when 99+% of the people who go to the
doctor for asthma symptoms have no ulterior motive and a spirometer can
indicate the same thing? Where are the statistics showing there are
enough people abusing asthma drugs for the insurance companies to even
consider encouraging doctors to write scripts instead of psychoanalysis?
Where is the outcry from the psychologists?

Psychologists have ADHD, which the allopathic equivalent of asthma.

Most people who go to a doctor and claim asthma are fat, sedentary people who
can't figure out why they are out of breath when they walk up a flight of
stairs. The doctor just wants them out of his office so he can get over to
the marina to take his boat out.

That's how life works, Carl. It's like all those people who go to church and
prayer to a Sky Daddy are gonna be real disappointed when they die and find
nothing.


Magilla



Your analysis still doesn't explain why insurance companies would be
willing to pay for unneccessary drugs. Remember, there are many
insurance plans that split coverage of actual care and meds between
different companies, like Express Scripts. They have nothing to gain by
the doctor scribbling some scripts and shoving the patient out the door.

Most asthmatics are diagnosed simply by telling the doctor
they have difficulty breathing.

That's probably true, but anyone who really has suffered an acute asthma attack knows that it is very real. Athletes are particularly attuned to differences in volume and rate of inhaled air, and that difference is dramatic in the case of a severe asthma attack. The problem is that a lot of people want a pharma solution to the very common and much milder condition of bronchial irritation due to heavier breathing during exercise. I think the medical community still calls it "asthma" if aerobic activity simply causes you to cough a little. There should be a clear distinction between severely restricted air passages and a little coughing.

My experience with this was bizarre. I had the "real" kind of asthma for just a single year, and it forced me to stop racing for a season, and then it disappeared and I've had no problem since. Trust me, I know the difference between normal high-end aerobic breathing, and having my air passages constricted to the point I needed to immediately stop.

Mark
http://marcofanelli.blogspot.com

In article ,
MagillaGorilla wrote:

That's how life works, Carl. It's like all those people who go to church and
prayer to a Sky Daddy are gonna be real disappointed when they die and find
nothing.

No they won't.

(This answer holds regardless of your position on the existence of God.)

--
Ryan Cousineau http://www.wiredcola.com/
"In other newsgroups, they killfile trolls."
"In rec.bicycles.racing, we coach them."

In article ,
Fred Fredburger wrote:

Michael Press wrote:
In article ,
MagillaGorilla wrote:

Is there anybody in here who has actually gone the distance with the
monkey in a thread?

Magilla Gorilla
Undefeated Heavyweight Champion of the World
39-0
34 KO's

Yes.


The great thing about Usenet is that you haven't lost if you don't know
you've lost.

The only way to win is not to play.

--
Ryan Cousineau http://www.wiredcola.com/
"In other newsgroups, they killfile trolls."
"In rec.bicycles.racing, we coach them."