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#61
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Creeping brake pad drag
On Sat, 23 Nov 2019 16:30:21 -0800 (PST), Sir Ridesalot
wrote: On Saturday, 23 November 2019 18:43:26 UTC-5, John B. wrote: On Sat, 23 Nov 2019 13:58:10 -0800 (PST), Frank Krygowski wrote: On Saturday, November 23, 2019 at 3:01:51 PM UTC-5, jbeattie wrote: On Saturday, November 23, 2019 at 9:37:21 AM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote: In my view, putting immense complexity into a sealed black box does not make a system "simple." From a user standpoint, Di2 is very simple -- more simple than cables. No tension adjustment or lubrication, and no sticking after riding in muck. You have to charge it now and then -- and you can get fussy with programming (on bike, no computer necessary for certain settings). Electronic shifting is not an imperative, and it's expensive, but its a reasonable choice. Well, sure, everything is a reasonable choice for someone in some situations. But "no tension adjustment or lubrication"? I can't remember the last time I did a so-called tension adjustment on anything but the folding bike; and for whatever reason, that one seemed to settle down early this year. I think all my shift cables are lined with plastic, but for whatever reason, I don't ever seem to have to lubricate them. Well, except for where they pass through that open plastic channel under the bottom bracket of one bike, and that's only very rarely. Other lubrication? A Di2 derailleur still has mechanical pivoting joints, doesn't it? It's OK if someone wants to buy e-shifting. And given basic early adopter psychology, plus normal pride of ownership, it's a given that most who spend many hundreds of dollars for its tiny benefits will say it's worth it. But it seems obvious that 99.9999% of the world's cyclists - and even cycling enthusiasts - get along just fine with mechanical systems. This choice proves that, at best, bike technology is now way, way deep into diminishing returns. And I really do think there's an important difference between "simple to use because of incredible complexity built into a tiny box" and just plain "simple." That difference shows up when something goes wrong. - Frank Krygowski Ah, but Frank. You apparently understand, It is NEW! (and therefore obviously better :-) And USians apparently have an almost unlimited amount of disposable income - I read the other day that "shopping", i.e., going to the Mall, is now considered a form of entertainment. And, of course, one has to "keep up with the Jones" and one way to do it is to have a more expensive bicycle. (we have at least one bloke here who drops the casual mention of his $4,000 bike into the conversation at frequent intervals). What could be more up-market than electrical shifting. It is NEW, it is EXPENSIVE, I got it and you don't. What better reasons could possible be imagined for owning something? -- cheers, John B. Once it's totally perfected, widespread and trickled-down to mid-range groupsets; I can see electronic shifting getting popular with touring bicyclists. There would be no problems with cables. I have bicycles with downtube shifters and I have bicycles with downtube shifters AND tubular tires. MY road touring bicycle has Campagnolo 9-Speed Mirage Ergo levers on it. Ratcheting front shifter lever mechanism. Why? Because I like being able to have two hands on the handlebar when honking up a hill or riding in strong cross winds on my loaded touring bike. Franks and YMMV. I DO KNOW what works best for ME. Cheers Yes, I agree with you. When the price drops there will undoubtedly be a lot of bicycles sold with electric shifting. And, I'm sure that as more and more devices are developed/invented to eliminate any and all requirement for physical activity they will be marketed... and purchased. And yes, I hear you... Oh! I wouldn't have to take my hands off the handle bars. Really? Of course about the first thing that young people do after finally learning to ride a bicycle is practice riding "hands off". And the great improvement of electric shifting over what exists today seems to be that instead of flicking your first finger to shift you now can simply press the tip of your finger on a tiny button.... and for that you get to pay in the neighborhood of $1,500. Ohhh, such a bargain :-) One can only assume that the next step in eliminating any and all requirement for physical activity will be the electric bicycle.And, of course, it is: https://tinyurl.com/urcmt3r Electric bicycles are showing strong year-over-year growth in the U.S., with dollar sales growing by 95 percent in the 12 months ending July 2017, and unit sales up 96 percent, according to global information company The NPD Group. A $64.9 million category today, electric bicycle sales have nearly tripled over the last 36 months. -- cheers, John B. |
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#62
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Creeping brake pad drag
On Saturday, 23 November 2019 20:12:07 UTC-5, John B. wrote:
On Sat, 23 Nov 2019 16:30:21 -0800 (PST), Sir Ridesalot wrote: On Saturday, 23 November 2019 18:43:26 UTC-5, John B. wrote: On Sat, 23 Nov 2019 13:58:10 -0800 (PST), Frank Krygowski wrote: On Saturday, November 23, 2019 at 3:01:51 PM UTC-5, jbeattie wrote: On Saturday, November 23, 2019 at 9:37:21 AM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote: In my view, putting immense complexity into a sealed black box does not make a system "simple." From a user standpoint, Di2 is very simple -- more simple than cables. No tension adjustment or lubrication, and no sticking after riding in muck. You have to charge it now and then -- and you can get fussy with programming (on bike, no computer necessary for certain settings). Electronic shifting is not an imperative, and it's expensive, but its a reasonable choice. Well, sure, everything is a reasonable choice for someone in some situations. But "no tension adjustment or lubrication"? I can't remember the last time I did a so-called tension adjustment on anything but the folding bike; and for whatever reason, that one seemed to settle down early this year. I think all my shift cables are lined with plastic, but for whatever reason, I don't ever seem to have to lubricate them. Well, except for where they pass through that open plastic channel under the bottom bracket of one bike, and that's only very rarely. Other lubrication? A Di2 derailleur still has mechanical pivoting joints, doesn't it? It's OK if someone wants to buy e-shifting. And given basic early adopter psychology, plus normal pride of ownership, it's a given that most who spend many hundreds of dollars for its tiny benefits will say it's worth it.. But it seems obvious that 99.9999% of the world's cyclists - and even cycling enthusiasts - get along just fine with mechanical systems. This choice proves that, at best, bike technology is now way, way deep into diminishing returns. And I really do think there's an important difference between "simple to use because of incredible complexity built into a tiny box" and just plain "simple." That difference shows up when something goes wrong. - Frank Krygowski Ah, but Frank. You apparently understand, It is NEW! (and therefore obviously better :-) And USians apparently have an almost unlimited amount of disposable income - I read the other day that "shopping", i.e., going to the Mall, is now considered a form of entertainment. And, of course, one has to "keep up with the Jones" and one way to do it is to have a more expensive bicycle. (we have at least one bloke here who drops the casual mention of his $4,000 bike into the conversation at frequent intervals). What could be more up-market than electrical shifting. It is NEW, it is EXPENSIVE, I got it and you don't. What better reasons could possible be imagined for owning something? -- cheers, John B. Once it's totally perfected, widespread and trickled-down to mid-range groupsets; I can see electronic shifting getting popular with touring bicyclists. There would be no problems with cables. I have bicycles with downtube shifters and I have bicycles with downtube shifters AND tubular tires. MY road touring bicycle has Campagnolo 9-Speed Mirage Ergo levers on it. Ratcheting front shifter lever mechanism. Why? Because I like being able to have two hands on the handlebar when honking up a hill or riding in strong cross winds on my loaded touring bike. Franks and YMMV. I DO KNOW what works best for ME. Cheers Yes, I agree with you. When the price drops there will undoubtedly be a lot of bicycles sold with electric shifting. And, I'm sure that as more and more devices are developed/invented to eliminate any and all requirement for physical activity they will be marketed... and purchased. And yes, I hear you... Oh! I wouldn't have to take my hands off the handle bars. Really? Of course about the first thing that young people do after finally learning to ride a bicycle is practice riding "hands off". And the great improvement of electric shifting over what exists today seems to be that instead of flicking your first finger to shift you now can simply press the tip of your finger on a tiny button.... and for that you get to pay in the neighborhood of $1,500. Ohhh, such a bargain :-) One can only assume that the next step in eliminating any and all requirement for physical activity will be the electric bicycle.And, of course, it is: https://tinyurl.com/urcmt3r Electric bicycles are showing strong year-over-year growth in the U.S., with dollar sales growing by 95 percent in the 12 months ending July 2017, and unit sales up 96 percent, according to global information company The NPD Group. A $64.9 million category today, electric bicycle sales have nearly tripled over the last 36 months. -- cheers, John B. John, sometimes it's hard to tell if you're trying to be funny or obtuse. LOL VBEG When riding up a long hill with a fully loaded touring bicycle especially with a strong side wind or worse strong side gusts, it's very nice to be able to make a shift without having to remove a hand from the handlebar. Like many things, if/when electronic shifting trickles down the group hierarchy so too will the price for it. When SIS downtube shifting was first perfected it was only available with the top of the line Dura Ace group. Now SIS is available even in some of the lowest level Shimano groups. Like i said, I LIKE my Campagnolo 9-Speed Ergo shifters. They allow me to keep two hands on the handlebar when I need to shift in sketchy conditions. That ability to keep two hands on the handlebar during a shift means I shift a LOT more often than I did/do with downtube shifters. YMMV I find being able to shift whenever I need/want to makes bicycling and especially touring with a loaded bicycle a LOT more EFFICIENT. Again, YMMV. Once electronic shifting trickles down in groups and price I might consider getting it for my touring bicycle. BTW, I do NOT want or need an electric powered bicycle-like object. I have absolutely no interest in any electronic moped or bicycle-like device. If I was going to forgo my bicycles I'd simply move to an internal combustion motorcycle where I would not have to worry much about running out of fuel/charge out in the boonies since I'd be able to carry extra fuel with me if needed. Cheers |
#63
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Creeping brake pad drag
Joy Beeson wrote:
On Sat, 23 Nov 2019 13:27:21 +0700, John B. wrote: Well, unless, of course, the computerized equipment made the bike lighter. Or faster. Or climbed hills quicker :-) Or your primary interest is fiddling with the equipment. It’s not bicycle related, but I spent WAY more time fiddling with cars before the computers took over. Idle speed, idle mixture, choke adjustments, timing, dwell, vacuum advance, plug gap. Now I just pour gas and drive. I could imagine Di2 to be that way if you wanted it to be. |
#65
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Creeping brake pad drag
On Saturday, November 23, 2019 at 5:36:09 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Saturday, November 23, 2019 at 10:58:13 PM UTC+1, Frank Krygowski wrote: On Saturday, November 23, 2019 at 3:01:51 PM UTC-5, jbeattie wrote: On Saturday, November 23, 2019 at 9:37:21 AM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote: In my view, putting immense complexity into a sealed black box does not make a system "simple." From a user standpoint, Di2 is very simple -- more simple than cables.. No tension adjustment or lubrication, and no sticking after riding in muck. You have to charge it now and then -- and you can get fussy with programming (on bike, no computer necessary for certain settings). Electronic shifting is not an imperative, and it's expensive, but its a reasonable choice. Well, sure, everything is a reasonable choice for someone in some situations. But "no tension adjustment or lubrication"? I can't remember the last time I did a so-called tension adjustment on anything but the folding bike; and for whatever reason, that one seemed to settle down early this year. I think all my shift cables are lined with plastic, but for whatever reason, I don't ever seem to have to lubricate them. Well, except for where they pass through that open plastic channel under the bottom bracket of one bike, and that's only very rarely. Other lubrication? A Di2 derailleur still has mechanical pivoting joints, doesn't it? It's OK if someone wants to buy e-shifting. And given basic early adopter psychology, plus normal pride of ownership, it's a given that most who spend many hundreds of dollars for its tiny benefits will say it's worth it. But it seems obvious that 99.9999% of the world's cyclists - and even cycling enthusiasts - get along just fine with mechanical systems. This choice proves that, at best, bike technology is now way, way deep into diminishing returns. And I really do think there's an important difference between "simple to use because of incredible complexity built into a tiny box" and just plain "simple." That difference shows up when something goes wrong. - Frank Krygowski What incredible complexity? Lou Upthread, I described the workings of a friction shifter in maybe 50 words or so. Except for the design of the derailleur's mechanics (which is essentially the same for both friction shifting and Di2) my description is very nearly enough for a competent machinist to make a working system. It's that simple.. Can you do the same now for Di2? Don't omit a sufficiently thorough explanation of the micro code and a description of the actuator in the derailleur. Describe it well enough that someone can make one, plus program the code. Similarly, if you like we can compare descriptions of what to check if each shifting system stops moving the derailleur. I know what to do if my rear derailleur cable breaks and my bike is stuck in the smallest cog. Two times (in 50+ years) I've fixed that on the road, far from home. Tell us what you should do if your Di2 gets stuck in the smallest cog. The comparison should show which is complex and which is not. - Frank Krygowski |
#66
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Creeping brake pad drag
On Saturday, November 23, 2019 at 8:57:43 PM UTC-5, Ralph Barone wrote:
Joy Beeson wrote: On Sat, 23 Nov 2019 13:27:21 +0700, John B. wrote: Well, unless, of course, the computerized equipment made the bike lighter. Or faster. Or climbed hills quicker :-) Or your primary interest is fiddling with the equipment. It’s not bicycle related, but I spent WAY more time fiddling with cars before the computers took over. Idle speed, idle mixture, choke adjustments, timing, dwell, vacuum advance, plug gap. Now I just pour gas and drive. I could imagine Di2 to be that way if you wanted it to be. My point here is not that we should eschew everything controlled by electronics. My main point is that we should rationally evaluate benefits vs. detriments; and that in my view, the benefits of electronic shifting are minimal and too costly. Cars have increased greatly in reliability and performance, often because of electronics, and that's good. But Di2 has not improved bike shifting or shifting reliability to anything like the same degree. - Frank Krygowski |
#67
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Creeping brake pad drag
On Sat, 23 Nov 2019 17:38:47 -0800 (PST), Sir Ridesalot
wrote: On Saturday, 23 November 2019 20:12:07 UTC-5, John B. wrote: On Sat, 23 Nov 2019 16:30:21 -0800 (PST), Sir Ridesalot wrote: On Saturday, 23 November 2019 18:43:26 UTC-5, John B. wrote: On Sat, 23 Nov 2019 13:58:10 -0800 (PST), Frank Krygowski wrote: On Saturday, November 23, 2019 at 3:01:51 PM UTC-5, jbeattie wrote: On Saturday, November 23, 2019 at 9:37:21 AM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote: In my view, putting immense complexity into a sealed black box does not make a system "simple." From a user standpoint, Di2 is very simple -- more simple than cables. No tension adjustment or lubrication, and no sticking after riding in muck. You have to charge it now and then -- and you can get fussy with programming (on bike, no computer necessary for certain settings). Electronic shifting is not an imperative, and it's expensive, but its a reasonable choice. Well, sure, everything is a reasonable choice for someone in some situations. But "no tension adjustment or lubrication"? I can't remember the last time I did a so-called tension adjustment on anything but the folding bike; and for whatever reason, that one seemed to settle down early this year. I think all my shift cables are lined with plastic, but for whatever reason, I don't ever seem to have to lubricate them. Well, except for where they pass through that open plastic channel under the bottom bracket of one bike, and that's only very rarely. Other lubrication? A Di2 derailleur still has mechanical pivoting joints, doesn't it? It's OK if someone wants to buy e-shifting. And given basic early adopter psychology, plus normal pride of ownership, it's a given that most who spend many hundreds of dollars for its tiny benefits will say it's worth it. But it seems obvious that 99.9999% of the world's cyclists - and even cycling enthusiasts - get along just fine with mechanical systems. This choice proves that, at best, bike technology is now way, way deep into diminishing returns. And I really do think there's an important difference between "simple to use because of incredible complexity built into a tiny box" and just plain "simple." That difference shows up when something goes wrong. - Frank Krygowski Ah, but Frank. You apparently understand, It is NEW! (and therefore obviously better :-) And USians apparently have an almost unlimited amount of disposable income - I read the other day that "shopping", i.e., going to the Mall, is now considered a form of entertainment. And, of course, one has to "keep up with the Jones" and one way to do it is to have a more expensive bicycle. (we have at least one bloke here who drops the casual mention of his $4,000 bike into the conversation at frequent intervals). What could be more up-market than electrical shifting. It is NEW, it is EXPENSIVE, I got it and you don't. What better reasons could possible be imagined for owning something? -- cheers, John B. Once it's totally perfected, widespread and trickled-down to mid-range groupsets; I can see electronic shifting getting popular with touring bicyclists. There would be no problems with cables. I have bicycles with downtube shifters and I have bicycles with downtube shifters AND tubular tires. MY road touring bicycle has Campagnolo 9-Speed Mirage Ergo levers on it. Ratcheting front shifter lever mechanism. Why? Because I like being able to have two hands on the handlebar when honking up a hill or riding in strong cross winds on my loaded touring bike. Franks and YMMV. I DO KNOW what works best for ME. Cheers Yes, I agree with you. When the price drops there will undoubtedly be a lot of bicycles sold with electric shifting. And, I'm sure that as more and more devices are developed/invented to eliminate any and all requirement for physical activity they will be marketed... and purchased. And yes, I hear you... Oh! I wouldn't have to take my hands off the handle bars. Really? Of course about the first thing that young people do after finally learning to ride a bicycle is practice riding "hands off". And the great improvement of electric shifting over what exists today seems to be that instead of flicking your first finger to shift you now can simply press the tip of your finger on a tiny button.... and for that you get to pay in the neighborhood of $1,500. Ohhh, such a bargain :-) One can only assume that the next step in eliminating any and all requirement for physical activity will be the electric bicycle.And, of course, it is: https://tinyurl.com/urcmt3r Electric bicycles are showing strong year-over-year growth in the U.S., with dollar sales growing by 95 percent in the 12 months ending July 2017, and unit sales up 96 percent, according to global information company The NPD Group. A $64.9 million category today, electric bicycle sales have nearly tripled over the last 36 months. -- cheers, John B. John, sometimes it's hard to tell if you're trying to be funny or obtuse. LOL VBEG Cynical. Here we have a two wheel vehicle that within living memory has largely been a toy for adolescents and the poor who either couldn't get a drivers license or were too poor to afford a "car" which suddenly blossom out into a $12,000 plastic thing, which the great bulk of the modern U.S. public wouldn't take if you paid them to. Mechanically a design that dates back to about 1850, some 170 years ago and a relatively simple designed then, with no major design changes from then to now. I might add that I was given a third/fourth/who knows/ hand bicycle when I was 12 or maybe 13 years old which my father bought from the hired hand on the next place for $3.00 because the brakes didn't work and I fixed the brakes - coaster brake - at that tender age. Which makes it fairly clear that a bicycle is not space age engineering. And we hear about all the updates and improvements and ITS NEW (pay more money). It is difficult not to be a cynical. When riding up a long hill with a fully loaded touring bicycle especially with a strong side wind or worse strong side gusts, it's very nice to be able to make a shift without having to remove a hand from the handlebar. Sometimes when going up a long hill with a load I have actually gotten off and pushed. Like many things, if/when electronic shifting trickles down the group hierarchy so too will the price for it. When SIS downtube shifting was first perfected it was only available with the top of the line Dura Ace group. Now SIS is available even in some of the lowest level Shimano groups. Like i said, I LIKE my Campagnolo 9-Speed Ergo shifters. They allow me to keep two hands on the handlebar when I need to shift in sketchy conditions. That ability to keep two hands on the handlebar during a shift means I shift a LOT more often than I did/do with downtube shifters. YMMV I find being able to shift whenever I need/want to makes bicycling and especially touring with a loaded bicycle a LOT more EFFICIENT. Again, YMMV. Once electronic shifting trickles down in groups and price I might consider getting it for my touring bicycle. BTW, I do NOT want or need an electric powered bicycle-like object. I have absolutely no interest in any electronic moped or bicycle-like device. If I was going to forgo my bicycles I'd simply move to an internal combustion motorcycle where I would not have to worry much about running out of fuel/charge out in the boonies since I'd be able to carry extra fuel with me if needed. Cheers While you may not want an e-bike the point is that, as sales tripled over the past three years, apparently a whole lot of other people do. Technically, of course, a bicycle with an electric motor IS a "motorcycle" but for the moment they seem to be being treated as electrified bicycle, at least in the U.S. Singapore with a much smaller population, and land area, and apparently large growth in electrified vehicles, seems to be on the verge of treating them as motorcycles with licensing, registration, safety inspections and all the other benefits of government supervision. -- cheers, John B. |
#68
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Creeping brake pad drag
On Sat, 23 Nov 2019 13:27:21 +0700, John B. wrote:
On Fri, 22 Nov 2019 21:49:42 -0800 (PST), Frank Krygowski wrote: But I don't want equipment on my bike that requires interfacing to a computer to adjust or fix. To me, that's the opposite of "appropriate technology." I have done plumbing and can still do plumbing, but I don't like it and I don't want plumbing on my bike. And so on. I think bikes should be simple. YMMV. - Frank Krygowski Well, unless, of course, the computerized equipment made the bike lighter. Or faster. Or climbed hills quicker :-) Dream one. I want reliable. In the hundreds of PC computers i've built over the years, very, very few of the have lasted for a decade. I want my bicycle to last longer than that. |
#69
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Creeping brake pad drag
On Sun, 24 Nov 2019 01:57:38 +0000 (UTC), Ralph Barone
wrote: Joy Beeson wrote: On Sat, 23 Nov 2019 13:27:21 +0700, John B. wrote: Well, unless, of course, the computerized equipment made the bike lighter. Or faster. Or climbed hills quicker :-) Or your primary interest is fiddling with the equipment. It’s not bicycle related, but I spent WAY more time fiddling with cars before the computers took over. Idle speed, idle mixture, choke adjustments, timing, dwell, vacuum advance, plug gap. Now I just pour gas and drive. I could imagine Di2 to be that way if you wanted it to be. I'm not sure how much of that is directly related to computers and how much is related to better materials. I read, for example, that Traditional Single Iridium Plugs have a life expectancy or 40 - 50 thousand miles and OE Iridium Long Life Plugs have a life expectancy of 80 - 120 thousand miles. I also believe that machining tolerances in mechanical parts are much more accurate now than in years past. Not to belittle variable valve timing and all the other modern marvels but I doubt that they are the whole story. -- cheers, John B. |
#70
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Creeping brake pad drag
On Sat, 23 Nov 2019 20:50:29 -0800 (PST), Frank Krygowski
wrote: On Saturday, November 23, 2019 at 5:36:09 PM UTC-5, wrote: On Saturday, November 23, 2019 at 10:58:13 PM UTC+1, Frank Krygowski wrote: On Saturday, November 23, 2019 at 3:01:51 PM UTC-5, jbeattie wrote: On Saturday, November 23, 2019 at 9:37:21 AM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote: In my view, putting immense complexity into a sealed black box does not make a system "simple." From a user standpoint, Di2 is very simple -- more simple than cables. No tension adjustment or lubrication, and no sticking after riding in muck. You have to charge it now and then -- and you can get fussy with programming (on bike, no computer necessary for certain settings). Electronic shifting is not an imperative, and it's expensive, but its a reasonable choice. Well, sure, everything is a reasonable choice for someone in some situations. But "no tension adjustment or lubrication"? I can't remember the last time I did a so-called tension adjustment on anything but the folding bike; and for whatever reason, that one seemed to settle down early this year. I think all my shift cables are lined with plastic, but for whatever reason, I don't ever seem to have to lubricate them. Well, except for where they pass through that open plastic channel under the bottom bracket of one bike, and that's only very rarely. Other lubrication? A Di2 derailleur still has mechanical pivoting joints, doesn't it? It's OK if someone wants to buy e-shifting. And given basic early adopter psychology, plus normal pride of ownership, it's a given that most who spend many hundreds of dollars for its tiny benefits will say it's worth it. But it seems obvious that 99.9999% of the world's cyclists - and even cycling enthusiasts - get along just fine with mechanical systems. This choice proves that, at best, bike technology is now way, way deep into diminishing returns. And I really do think there's an important difference between "simple to use because of incredible complexity built into a tiny box" and just plain "simple." That difference shows up when something goes wrong. - Frank Krygowski What incredible complexity? Lou Upthread, I described the workings of a friction shifter in maybe 50 words or so. Except for the design of the derailleur's mechanics (which is essentially the same for both friction shifting and Di2) my description is very nearly enough for a competent machinist to make a working system. It's that simple. Can you do the same now for Di2? Don't omit a sufficiently thorough explanation of the micro code and a description of the actuator in the derailleur. Describe it well enough that someone can make one, plus program the code. Similarly, if you like we can compare descriptions of what to check if each shifting system stops moving the derailleur. I know what to do if my rear derailleur cable breaks and my bike is stuck in the smallest cog. Two times (in 50+ years) I've fixed that on the road, far from home. Tell us what you should do if your Di2 gets stuck in the smallest cog. The comparison should show which is complex and which is not. - Frank Krygowski There is an old - well at least 50 year old - saying that, "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" which likely applies. -- cheers, John B. |
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