Really, really dumb

On Tue, 14 Jan 2020 19:36:57 -0500, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 1/14/2020 6:25 PM, John B. wrote:
On Tue, 14 Jan 2020 17:09:07 -0500, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 1/14/2020 4:06 PM, Radey Shouman wrote:


Proficiency in using the long bow required a lot of target practice.
This took time, and required that low born yeomen have the weapons ready
at home.

Agreed.

Frank would have us believe that shooting at targets is just a game, but
of course it has been promoted for military readiness throughout
history.

Note that the two propositions are not mutually exclusive. Yes, target
shooting has historically been promoted for military readiness. But (for
example) Boy Scouts earning their Rifle merit badge are never told "This
is in case there's a war." Almost all American target shooting is for
fun, for competition (i.e. a game) or training for hunting. (I've done
it just for fun.)

The most common counterexample is police training. But that wouldn't be
nearly as necessary if we had rational gun control in this country.

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/w...terror-n737551

Your reference article is just a tad misleading as it refers to the
"U.K." police and states that a large percent are not armed which is a
nice end run around the fact that in Northern Ireland, a part of the
U.K., all police are armed.

But Yes, make a law and everything will be O.K. Right?

Do you know about the so called Sullivan Act ?

" The Sullivan Act is a gun control law in New York State that took
effect in 1911. The law required licenses for New Yorkers to possess
firearms small enough to be concealed. Private possession of such
firearms without a license was a misdemeanor, and carrying them in
public was a felony."

So every is hunky-dory and there has been no gun crime in the state of
New York since 1911?
So what's your position, John? Abolish all laws?

I am pointing out that your often mentioned gun control laws do not
necessarily produce what they are intended to produce.

I can remember when the kid gangs in New York City were making their
own guns - "zip guns" I believe they were called. All in spite of the
strict New York laws.
--
cheers,

John B.

Frank Krygowski writes:

[...]

There are many guns optimized for more civilized uses - shotguns
optimized for hunting birds, long range hunting rifles for elk at 1000
yards, ordinary hunting rifles (like a Ruger 10/22 for example),
competition target rifles, ordinary 0.22s that are good at tin cans,
etc.

The Ruger 10/22 is a nice, practical choice. I bought one myself.
I'm guessing you mention it specifically because you have one or have
used one.

But. It's a semi-automatic weapon. The standard magazine is 10 rounds,
but larger ones are readily available. It does take a much less
powerful cartridge than the AR-15, but, really, it works just the same,
at least from the operator's perspective. Ruger also makes the mini-14,
which is a semi-auto chambered in .223, like the AR-15, but with wood
furniture and no carry handle on top.

Now, you could have chosen any of a multitude of rifles with falling
block, bolt, or pump action, but for *some* reason you chose the 10/22.
Why? Didn't you consider that you and yours might be irrestibly tempted
to hose down the Ohio countryside with semi-auto fire?

Wait. You might have left the evil magazine at home, or thrown it in
the trash, and loaded the rifle by hand, single shot. Easy enough if
your fingers are small. Enquiring minds want to know.

On Tuesday, January 14, 2020 at 5:10:01 PM UTC-8, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Tuesday, 14 January 2020 20:04:10 UTC-5, AMuzi wrote:
On 1/14/2020 6:36 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 1/14/2020 6:25 PM, John B. wrote:
On Tue, 14 Jan 2020 17:09:07 -0500, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 1/14/2020 4:06 PM, Radey Shouman wrote:


Proficiency in using the long bow required a lot of
target practice.
This took time, and required that low born yeomen have
the weapons ready
at home.

Agreed.

Frank would have us believe that shooting at targets is
just a game, but
of course it has been promoted for military readiness
throughout
history.

Note that the two propositions are not mutually
exclusive. Yes, target
shooting has historically been promoted for military
readiness. But (for
example) Boy Scouts earning their Rifle merit badge are
never told "This
is in case there's a war." Almost all American target
shooting is for
fun, for competition (i.e. a game) or training for
hunting. (I've done
it just for fun.)

The most common counterexample is police training. But
that wouldn't be
nearly as necessary if we had rational gun control in
this country.

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/w...terror-n737551


Your reference article is just a tad misleading as it
refers to the
"U.K." police and states that a large percent are not
armed which is a
nice end run around the fact that in Northern Ireland, a
part of the
U.K., all police are armed.

But Yes, make a law and everything will be O.K. Right?

Do you know about the so called Sullivan Act ?

" The Sullivan Act is a gun control law in New York
State that took
effect in 1911. The law required licenses for New Yorkers
to possess
firearms small enough to be concealed. Private possession
of such
firearms without a license was a misdemeanor, and carrying
them in
public was a felony."

So every is hunky-dory and there has been no gun crime in
the state of
New York since 1911?
So what's your position, John? Abolish all laws?


It may well start with some martinet like Cuomo whining that
'no one needs ten bullets to kill a deer' and then Frank
bans my tubular tires.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

We know that Frank is anit-gun with larger than single shot magazines. I wonder how he feels about BIG GUNS such as these:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2eV8N0bUzA0

Or how about these:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HXQn_F3Lndk

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QcoeUr61NPU

For a lot of people shooting large capcity magazine firearms is simply fun. Same as riding a vintage steel bike with cantilever brakes, platform pedals and wide tires.

Cheers

Uh, no. It is nothing like riding a vintage steel bike. First, they blow sh** up, unlike my vintage steel bike. You need an NFA license to own a lot of military hardware, and its illegal to own in many states. BTW, the Oregon courts have held that there is no Second Amendment right to own a Howitzer, tank, bazooka, RPG launcher, etc., etc., but they are not banned here, which resulted in one of my unfortunate cases: https://www.oregonlive.com/pacific-n..._fill_out.html I also had a case where a kid was killed at a Boy Scout camp by an exploding cannon. My firm represented Glock (they still send me Christmas cards), and I represented another firearms manufacturer of repros and muzzle-loaders. Those things can blow-up, typically from bad reloads by owners. My vintage steel bike has yet to blow-up. I've blown-up a tire, though. No one was injured.

Big blow-em-up guns are also wickedly wasteful and polluting. There are DEQ clean-up cases involving lead in groundwater from shooting ranges. So far, no environmental claims arising out of the Alpenrose Velodrome or any activities related to vintage steel bike riding.

I own guns, including vintage steel guns and spent a lot of time shooting with friends when I was a kid. I had a gun lunatic friend as well as a SWAT officer friend and shot a lot of crazy guns. AR-15s are cool transformer guns and real hobby items. I get it. I just don't view them as religious icons. They should be subject to regulation like every other device used for killing each other, like cars.

And BTW, when I was working ambulance, I saw a lot of shot people. Big holes, little holes, brains blown out, through-and-throughs that just look like jumbo bee stings. You name it. I can say with some certainty that you're not going to get that JRA on some vintage steel bike. Your son is not going to shoot himself or someone else with your Miele.

-- Jay Beattie.

Frank Krygowski writes:

On 1/14/2020 2:53 PM, wrote:
No gun originated to hunt with. they were ALL designed from the
beginning to be used to kill people in military actions.

I let so, so much of Tom's nonsense go by without comment. But his
statement above is ignorant beyond belief.

I disagree silently with much that Tom writes, but he's not far wrong
here.

There is a class of historic weapons (dueling pistols) specifically
intended for retail mayhem as opposed to war. And certainly individual
weapons were made for hunting, or diplomatic gifts, or symbols of rank,
or what have you. But every class of weapon (firearm or not) or advance
in weapon technology was driven by the desire to kill a bunch of people.

On Tue, 14 Jan 2020 14:52:26 -0800 (PST), jbeattie
wrote:

On Tuesday, January 14, 2020 at 1:53:47 PM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 1/14/2020 4:24 PM, wrote:
So you don't want someone protecting their home or business against multiple invaders with sufficient ammunition huh?

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q...C9DC&FORM=VIRE

Apparently Tom has "good guy with a gun" fantasies. He envisions himself
whipping out an AR-15 from under his trench coat and blowing away those
bad guys. In his fantasy, medals for heroism would follow.

There are many millions of those guns in the U.S. Why wasn't one used to
stop that theft, Tom? How does "good guy with a gun" go wrong so frequently?

And how does Canada get by without far fewer of these things in
circulation? Canada doesn't seem to be at the mercy of armed robbers.
Quite the opposite, in fact.

https://theconversation.com/a-short-...-canada-123959

Tom is a war lord in Somalifornia. He needs large capacity mag, full auto and the optional grenade launcher.

In fact, he needs a minigun and a move to Texas. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RH-2breIx-g I wish my dad had taken me out to shoot the minigun! That is a truly Amerycun father-son bonding experience.

-- Jay Beattie.

-- Jay Beattie.

The first mini guns I saw were fitted to the C-47 gun ships at Nha
Trang air base, Vietnam. They had a feed system that held a large
number of un linked rounds and were said to fire at 6,000 RPM.

We did a modification of the gun mounts to reduce the angle of bank of
the aircraft when firing and I flew the test mission. We dropped a 55
gallon barrel in the bay and fired at it and with a single gun firing
it was a steady roar, you could not hear the individual shots.

--
cheers,

John B.

On Tuesday, 14 January 2020 21:14:13 UTC-5, jbeattie wrote:
On Tuesday, January 14, 2020 at 5:10:01 PM UTC-8, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Tuesday, 14 January 2020 20:04:10 UTC-5, AMuzi wrote:
On 1/14/2020 6:36 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 1/14/2020 6:25 PM, John B. wrote:
On Tue, 14 Jan 2020 17:09:07 -0500, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 1/14/2020 4:06 PM, Radey Shouman wrote:


Proficiency in using the long bow required a lot of
target practice.
This took time, and required that low born yeomen have
the weapons ready
at home.

Agreed.

Frank would have us believe that shooting at targets is
just a game, but
of course it has been promoted for military readiness
throughout
history.

Note that the two propositions are not mutually
exclusive. Yes, target
shooting has historically been promoted for military
readiness. But (for
example) Boy Scouts earning their Rifle merit badge are
never told "This
is in case there's a war." Almost all American target
shooting is for
fun, for competition (i.e. a game) or training for
hunting. (I've done
it just for fun.)

The most common counterexample is police training. But
that wouldn't be
nearly as necessary if we had rational gun control in
this country.

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/w...terror-n737551


Your reference article is just a tad misleading as it
refers to the
"U.K." police and states that a large percent are not
armed which is a
nice end run around the fact that in Northern Ireland, a
part of the
U.K., all police are armed.

But Yes, make a law and everything will be O.K. Right?

Do you know about the so called Sullivan Act ?

" The Sullivan Act is a gun control law in New York
State that took
effect in 1911. The law required licenses for New Yorkers
to possess
firearms small enough to be concealed. Private possession
of such
firearms without a license was a misdemeanor, and carrying
them in
public was a felony."

So every is hunky-dory and there has been no gun crime in
the state of
New York since 1911?
So what's your position, John? Abolish all laws?


It may well start with some martinet like Cuomo whining that
'no one needs ten bullets to kill a deer' and then Frank
bans my tubular tires.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

We know that Frank is anit-gun with larger than single shot magazines. I wonder how he feels about BIG GUNS such as these:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2eV8N0bUzA0

Or how about these:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HXQn_F3Lndk

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QcoeUr61NPU

For a lot of people shooting large capcity magazine firearms is simply fun. Same as riding a vintage steel bike with cantilever brakes, platform pedals and wide tires.

Cheers

Uh, no. It is nothing like riding a vintage steel bike. First, they blow sh** up, unlike my vintage steel bike. You need an NFA license to own a lot of military hardware, and its illegal to own in many states. BTW, the Oregon courts have held that there is no Second Amendment right to own a Howitzer, tank, bazooka, RPG launcher, etc., etc., but they are not banned here, which resulted in one of my unfortunate cases: https://www.oregonlive.com/pacific-n..._fill_out.html I also had a case where a kid was killed at a Boy Scout camp by an exploding cannon. My firm represented Glock (they still send me Christmas cards), and I represented another firearms manufacturer of repros and muzzle-loaders. Those things can blow-up, typically from bad reloads by owners. My vintage steel bike has yet to blow-up. I've blown-up a tire, though. No one was injured..

Big blow-em-up guns are also wickedly wasteful and polluting. There are DEQ clean-up cases involving lead in groundwater from shooting ranges. So far, no environmental claims arising out of the Alpenrose Velodrome or any activities related to vintage steel bike riding.

I own guns, including vintage steel guns and spent a lot of time shooting with friends when I was a kid. I had a gun lunatic friend as well as a SWAT officer friend and shot a lot of crazy guns. AR-15s are cool transformer guns and real hobby items. I get it. I just don't view them as religious icons. They should be subject to regulation like every other device used for killing each other, like cars.

And BTW, when I was working ambulance, I saw a lot of shot people. Big holes, little holes, brains blown out, through-and-throughs that just look like jumbo bee stings. You name it. I can say with some certainty that you're not going to get that JRA on some vintage steel bike. Your son is not going to shoot himself or someone else with your Miele.

-- Jay Beattie.

My point was that some people enjoy shooting firearms of all types or calibers just like people ENJOY riding a vintage bike. The operative word being "ENJOY".

Cheers

On 1/14/2020 8:13 PM, Radey Shouman wrote:
Frank Krygowski writes:

[...]

There are many guns optimized for more civilized uses - shotguns
optimized for hunting birds, long range hunting rifles for elk at 1000
yards, ordinary hunting rifles (like a Ruger 10/22 for example),
competition target rifles, ordinary 0.22s that are good at tin cans,
etc.

The Ruger 10/22 is a nice, practical choice. I bought one myself.
I'm guessing you mention it specifically because you have one or have
used one.

But. It's a semi-automatic weapon. The standard magazine is 10 rounds,
but larger ones are readily available. It does take a much less
powerful cartridge than the AR-15, but, really, it works just the same,
at least from the operator's perspective. Ruger also makes the mini-14,
which is a semi-auto chambered in .223, like the AR-15, but with wood
furniture and no carry handle on top.

Now, you could have chosen any of a multitude of rifles with falling
block, bolt, or pump action, but for *some* reason you chose the 10/22.
Why? Didn't you consider that you and yours might be irrestibly tempted
to hose down the Ohio countryside with semi-auto fire?

Wait. You might have left the evil magazine at home, or thrown it in
the trash, and loaded the rifle by hand, single shot. Easy enough if
your fingers are small. Enquiring minds want to know.


Here's the world in which we actually live:

https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s...ta-table-8.xls

Note edged weapons beat rifles 5 to 1.



--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On 1/14/2020 9:14 PM, jbeattie wrote:

I own guns, including vintage steel guns and spent a lot of time shooting with friends when I was a kid. I had a gun lunatic friend as well as a SWAT officer friend and shot a lot of crazy guns. AR-15s are cool transformer guns and real hobby items. I get it. I just don't view them as religious icons. They should be subject to regulation like every other device used for killing each other, like cars.

And the "religious icons" bit is a big art of the problem. To a sad
number of gun nuts, any mention of any restriction on any type of gun or
ammo is blasphemy. It's not based on data or reason or science or logic.

I once had a gun nut go almost apoplectic in my office, because he
spotted an 8.5" x 11" poster that said something about gun control. It
took several seconds before he could form a complete sentence. He was
like a fundamentalist Christian spotting a Satan worship handbook.


--
- Frank Krygowski

On 1/14/2020 8:44 PM, John B. wrote:
On Tue, 14 Jan 2020 19:36:57 -0500, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 1/14/2020 6:25 PM, John B. wrote:
On Tue, 14 Jan 2020 17:09:07 -0500, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 1/14/2020 4:06 PM, Radey Shouman wrote:


Proficiency in using the long bow required a lot of target practice.
This took time, and required that low born yeomen have the weapons ready
at home.

Agreed.

Frank would have us believe that shooting at targets is just a game, but
of course it has been promoted for military readiness throughout
history.

Note that the two propositions are not mutually exclusive. Yes, target
shooting has historically been promoted for military readiness. But (for
example) Boy Scouts earning their Rifle merit badge are never told "This
is in case there's a war." Almost all American target shooting is for
fun, for competition (i.e. a game) or training for hunting. (I've done
it just for fun.)

The most common counterexample is police training. But that wouldn't be
nearly as necessary if we had rational gun control in this country.

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/w...terror-n737551

Your reference article is just a tad misleading as it refers to the
"U.K." police and states that a large percent are not armed which is a
nice end run around the fact that in Northern Ireland, a part of the
U.K., all police are armed.

But Yes, make a law and everything will be O.K. Right?

Do you know about the so called Sullivan Act ?

" The Sullivan Act is a gun control law in New York State that took
effect in 1911. The law required licenses for New Yorkers to possess
firearms small enough to be concealed. Private possession of such
firearms without a license was a misdemeanor, and carrying them in
public was a felony."

So every is hunky-dory and there has been no gun crime in the state of
New York since 1911?
So what's your position, John? Abolish all laws?

I am pointing out that your often mentioned gun control laws do not
necessarily produce what they are intended to produce.

I know that, John. Andrew pulls the same trick from time to time. Any
law you can name gets violated from time to time.

But that certainly doesn't mean we must do away with all laws. I assume
you agree, since you frequently praise the strict laws in Singapore.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On 1/14/2020 10:13 PM, AMuzi wrote:

Here's the world in which we actually live:

https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s...ta-table-8.xls


Note edged weapons beat rifles 5 to 1.

Only if you ignore the vast unknown "type not stated."


--
- Frank Krygowski