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Sad helmet incident



 
 
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  #151  
Old January 22nd 20, 03:10 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Radey Shouman
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Posts: 1,747
Default Sad helmet incident

sms writes:

On 1/21/2020 12:46 PM, Radey Shouman wrote:

snip

Yes, you would. Before mandating helmets I would hope that a
responsible government would be able to show a significant savings in
healthcare money, lifetime enjoyment, &c. Population studies suggest
strongly that those who were in favor got it wrong.


Well in city government, and I suspect in county, state, and federal
government, not every law that is enacted is based solely on the
fiscal impact. And sometimes, when you look only at fiscal impact, the
end result is not what the electorate wanted or expected, even when
they voted directly for such a law.


I should hope not. That's what I intended by "lifetime enjoyment": the
cost of a public health measure, in both fiscal and human terms, should
be balanced with the benefit, again in both human and fiscal terms. The
number of years of healthy life gained or lost must be included, and,
hopefully, dominate the calculation.

Prop 47 in California is a prime example. It saves the state a lot of
money because it eliminates the need to build and operate more
prisons. The title was "The Safe Neighborhoods and Schools Act." But
one of the side effects is that some low-level property crimes went
way up
https://www.ppic.org/press-release/proposition-47-linked-to-increase-in-some-property-crimes-but-not-violent-crime/. But
the cost to people of this property crime is still much less than
they'd have to pay in new taxes to build and operate more prisons for
low-level property crimes. But try explaining that to someone whose
car windows have been repeatedly broken.


I take your point, and believe that we really cannot afford even our
current rate of incarceration. The cost of repeatedly broken windows,
however, goes beyond just replacing windows. It makes it hard for
people to enjoy their lives in a feeling of security, prompts them to
spend on anti-crime measures, and makes them less likely to ride their
bicycles in streets that seem dangerous.
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  #152  
Old January 22nd 20, 03:34 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
James[_8_]
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Posts: 6,153
Default Sad helmet incident

On 21/1/20 5:55 pm, Oculus Lights wrote:
On Thursday, January 16, 2020 at 9:05:10 AM UTC-8, Radey Shouman
wrote:
Girl, 4, died after bike helmet got caught on branch:

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-...shire-51139789

She wasn't riding her bike at the time, but, being four years old,
she probably wasn't able to remove her own helmet.

--


I always wear a helmet when on the bike, and aggressively argue back
at anyone who says they shouldn't be mandatory for all ages. Twice,
I would have been dead if not for wearing a helmet when I crashed on
a bike.



Be assured I'm less likely to change my opinion due to your aggression.

--
JS

  #153  
Old January 22nd 20, 05:16 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Joy Beeson
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Posts: 1,638
Default Sad helmet incident

On Mon, 20 Jan 2020 10:39:04 +0700, John B.
wrote:

Imagine what the results of a law stating that
possession of a drug is punished by a mandatory $5,000 fine and/or
imprisonment for not less then six months.


I'm on ten different drugs. I do not approve of this law.

--
Joy Beeson
joy beeson at comcast dot net
  #154  
Old January 22nd 20, 05:18 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
jOHN b.
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Posts: 2,421
Default Sad helmet incident

On Tue, 21 Jan 2020 23:16:23 -0500, Joy Beeson
wrote:

On Mon, 20 Jan 2020 10:39:04 +0700, John B.
wrote:

Imagine what the results of a law stating that
possession of a drug is punished by a mandatory $5,000 fine and/or
imprisonment for not less then six months.


I'm on ten different drugs. I do not approve of this law.


O.K., O.K., "possession of an illegal drug" :-)
--
cheers,

John B.

  #155  
Old January 22nd 20, 09:40 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Eric Pozharski
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Posts: 41
Default Sad helmet incident

with Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Tue, 21 Jan 2020 19:05:04 +0200, Eric Pozharski
wrote:
with Jeff Liebermann
wrote:
On Mon, 20 Jan 2020 10:51:25 +0200, Eric Pozharski
wrote:
with Jeff Liebermann
wrote:


So, what is an RBT reading geek to do? If helmets are not going
to disappear, and many people seem to want helmets, then at least
make them better, more functional, more usable, cheaper, and in
this case, less dangerous to small children. Minor tweaks to the
design of a chin strap are not going to affect global use and
sales of helmets, but it might save the lives of a few kids.
No way. Changes as such would draw on profits.
I suspect you don't understand how most product cycles operate.

Please rest assured I enjoy your writings, no offence. But with this
one there's one little problem: there's no fast-release straps (for
kids or otherwise) in objective reality. Why so? Because profits?

Failure to exist is not evidence of failure.


Well, I can't agree more. Please suggest how long should we wait for
evidence of success.

*SKIP* [[ Seriously? I'm bloody cyclist -- you can't shame me. ]]

How many 4 year old must be sacrificed to the gods of profit before a
truly safe bicycle helmet can be profitably produced?


Well, that's complicated. Intuitively, more sacrifice should close the
gap to start a panic. But! Panic is tricky thing, it might result in
screw-MHL reaction.

--
Torvalds' goal for Linux is very simple: World Domination
Stallman's goal for GNU is even simpler: Freedom
  #156  
Old January 22nd 20, 10:19 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Rolf Mantel[_2_]
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Posts: 267
Default Sad helmet incident

Am 22.01.2020 um 03:10 schrieb Radey Shouman:
I take your point, and believe that we really cannot afford even our
current rate of incarceration. The cost of repeatedly broken windows,
however, goes beyond just replacing windows. It makes it hard for
people to enjoy their lives in a feeling of security, prompts them to
spend on anti-crime measures, and makes them less likely to ride their
bicycles in streets that seem dangerous.


The effectiveness of incarceration as a crime deterrant has never been
shown. Some of the factors a
- difference between premediated and spontaneous crime
- social status changes due to being incarcerated
- subjective chance of being caught
- expectation for getting a fair trial

As in the US, mostly minority populations are incarcerated and minority
populations subjectively do not expect to get a fair trial, the social
status change due to being incarcerated is minimal.

On the other extreme, for whie sex offenders, the social status change
due to being incarcerated is massive (the real punishment starts after
the offender has been released from jail) but the subjective change of
being caught is extremely low and the crime mostly starts spontaneous.



  #157  
Old January 22nd 20, 04:21 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Tom Kunich[_2_]
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Posts: 1,318
Default Sad helmet incident

On Tuesday, January 21, 2020 at 4:20:59 PM UTC-8, news18 wrote:
On Tue, 21 Jan 2020 11:09:47 -0800, Tom Kunich wrote:

On Monday, January 20, 2020 at 2:46:43 PM UTC-8, John B. wrote:



But... military helmets are not designed to be bullet proof, or to
phrase it a bit differently the M-16 was designed to penetrate one side
of a helmet at 500 yards.
--
cheers,

John B.


John, what the hell ever gave you the idea that military helmets were
not designed to be bulletproof?

All the armies that do not use them

This is the 21st century and I suggest
you come up to date.


1. Far too soon for 21st century products to be used in any military. it
will takes decades for the idea to sicnk in, decades for testing, decades
for budgeting and may grandchildren will get to use it.

2. Just because it is new, doesn't make it better.


For your information, the latest military headgear is bullet proof to an extent. It is made of layers of steel and carbon fiber. Now - not in the future. And these have been used for over ten years. What in God's name gives you the idea that the Pentagon wants to lose highly trained soldiers? The sheer ignorance and the negativity of you children is such that you will never succeed at anything.
  #158  
Old January 22nd 20, 04:27 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Tom Kunich[_2_]
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Posts: 1,318
Default Sad helmet incident

On Tuesday, January 21, 2020 at 8:16:26 PM UTC-8, Joy Beeson wrote:
On Mon, 20 Jan 2020 10:39:04 +0700, John B.
wrote:

Imagine what the results of a law stating that
possession of a drug is punished by a mandatory $5,000 fine and/or
imprisonment for not less then six months.


I'm on ten different drugs. I do not approve of this law.

--
Joy Beeson
joy beeson at comcast dot net


People often do not fid any distinction between prescribed drugs that can affect your ability to drive and illegal drugs. I can have my entire vision spinning out of control upon occasion. I close one eye and pull over to the side safely and wait the 30 seconds for it to clear. It has something to do with synchronizing the signals between eyes. It is rare but it does occur..
  #159  
Old January 22nd 20, 04:31 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Tom Kunich[_2_]
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Posts: 1,318
Default Sad helmet incident

On Wednesday, January 22, 2020 at 1:17:20 AM UTC-8, Eric Pozharski wrote:
with Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Tue, 21 Jan 2020 19:05:04 +0200, Eric Pozharski
wrote:
with Jeff Liebermann
wrote:
On Mon, 20 Jan 2020 10:51:25 +0200, Eric Pozharski
wrote:
with Jeff Liebermann
wrote:


So, what is an RBT reading geek to do? If helmets are not going
to disappear, and many people seem to want helmets, then at least
make them better, more functional, more usable, cheaper, and in
this case, less dangerous to small children. Minor tweaks to the
design of a chin strap are not going to affect global use and
sales of helmets, but it might save the lives of a few kids.
No way. Changes as such would draw on profits.
I suspect you don't understand how most product cycles operate.
Please rest assured I enjoy your writings, no offence. But with this
one there's one little problem: there's no fast-release straps (for
kids or otherwise) in objective reality. Why so? Because profits?

Failure to exist is not evidence of failure.


Well, I can't agree more. Please suggest how long should we wait for
evidence of success.

*SKIP* [[ Seriously? I'm bloody cyclist -- you can't shame me. ]]

How many 4 year old must be sacrificed to the gods of profit before a
truly safe bicycle helmet can be profitably produced?


Well, that's complicated. Intuitively, more sacrifice should close the
gap to start a panic. But! Panic is tricky thing, it might result in
screw-MHL reaction.

--
Torvalds' goal for Linux is very simple: World Domination
Stallman's goal for GNU is even simpler: Freedom


Truly safe helmets are presently available. Even the normal present day helmets make children much safer on bicycles. The weight of their head and the way and distance they fall makes even a poor helmet effective.

As I've said before though, that doesn't make mandatory helmet laws legitimate.
  #160  
Old January 22nd 20, 04:40 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Tom Kunich[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,318
Default Sad helmet incident

On Wednesday, January 22, 2020 at 1:19:13 AM UTC-8, Rolf Mantel wrote:
Am 22.01.2020 um 03:10 schrieb Radey Shouman:
I take your point, and believe that we really cannot afford even our
current rate of incarceration. The cost of repeatedly broken windows,
however, goes beyond just replacing windows. It makes it hard for
people to enjoy their lives in a feeling of security, prompts them to
spend on anti-crime measures, and makes them less likely to ride their
bicycles in streets that seem dangerous.


The effectiveness of incarceration as a crime deterrant has never been
shown. Some of the factors a
- difference between premediated and spontaneous crime
- social status changes due to being incarcerated
- subjective chance of being caught
- expectation for getting a fair trial

As in the US, mostly minority populations are incarcerated and minority
populations subjectively do not expect to get a fair trial, the social
status change due to being incarcerated is minimal.

On the other extreme, for whie sex offenders, the social status change
due to being incarcerated is massive (the real punishment starts after
the offender has been released from jail) but the subjective change of
being caught is extremely low and the crime mostly starts spontaneous.


They have discovered that IF you can catch criminals as they begin their careers and while in prison offer them training is an actual avocation that they have almost null repeat offenders. What we know is this: In Germany they have approximately the same crime rate ratios as in the US. The US has 10 times the prison population as Germany but neither case seems to change the crime repeat rates of criminals.
 




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