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Sad helmet incident



 
 
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  #21  
Old January 19th 20, 07:08 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Jeff Liebermann
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 4,018
Default Sad helmet incident

On Sat, 18 Jan 2020 21:53:58 -0800, Jeff Liebermann
wrote:

There's also Darth Vader's helmet:
https://www.google.com/search?q=darth+vader+helmet&tbm=isch
and Star Wars Storm Troopers helmet:
https://www.google.com/search?tbm=isch&q=star+wars+troopers+helmet
The Troopers helmet splits vertically at the ear:
https://www.manualslib.com/manual/66298/Hasbro-The-Clone-Wars-Aegs-5Plus.html


Mo

3D printed helmets look better:
https://www.google.com/search?q=3d+printed+helmet&tbm=isch

Also, the Iron Man helmet:
https://www.google.com/search?tbm=isch&q=iron+man+3d+printed+helmet

3D Printed Iron Man Helmet with Functional Electronics!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ElOmVrb9Hac (2:06)
Kewl... instant motorized visibility.

Soon, everyone will be wearing super-hero safety helmets.


--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D
http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558
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  #22  
Old January 19th 20, 07:23 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Jeff Liebermann
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 4,018
Default Sad helmet incident

On Sat, 18 Jan 2020 21:14:42 -0800, Jeff Liebermann
wrote:

On Sun, 19 Jan 2020 04:31:17 -0000 (UTC), news18
wrote:

On Sat, 18 Jan 2020 16:31:33 -0800, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
In my never humble opinion, it would not be difficult to redesign the
common "quick release buckle" so that it would release under tension or
possibly when an added release cord and D-ring is pulled.


As well as the harpoon style buckle that requires two fingers to
reelease, there is a press button (tab actually) style of buckle that has
been around as log as the harpoon style. caveat, i usualy only see them
in sewing shops.


I think I know what you mean, but I can't find a photo with Google
Image search. I also seem to recall they only came in a rather large
1" webbing size, not the typical 5/8" helmet chin strap webbing size.
1" webbing is too wide for a chin strap.


I lied. I just found a center button quick release buckle:
https://www.countrybrookdesign.com/buckle-center-button-quick-release-3-8-inch.html
It's for 3/8" webbing. I found some for 3/4" and 1", but not 5/8".
See first to rows of products below:
https://www.countrybrookdesign.com/catalogsearch/result/?q=center+button+quick+release+buckle

Still, nothing for 5/8" webbing.
https://www.plastic-buckle.com/center-release-buckles.aspx

Mo
https://www.google.com/search?tbm=isch&q=YKK+center+button+quick+release+ buckles

--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D
http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558
  #23  
Old January 19th 20, 05:38 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Frank Krygowski[_4_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 10,538
Default Sad helmet incident

On 1/18/2020 11:21 PM, John B. wrote:
On Sat, 18 Jan 2020 19:07:56 -0800 (PST), Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On Saturday, January 18, 2020 at 8:38:25 PM UTC-5, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Saturday, 18 January 2020 19:31:22 UTC-5, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Thu, 16 Jan 2020 12:05:06 -0500, Radey Shouman
wrote:

Girl, 4, died after bike helmet got caught on branch:

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-...shire-51139789

She wasn't riding her bike at the time, but, being four years old, she
probably wasn't able to remove her own helmet.

Perhaps we should all try a simple experiment. Throw a rope over an
overhead tree branch or roof beam. Attach the other end of the rope
to your bicycle helmet. Take up the rope slack by bending your knees.
No need to lift your feed off the ground as you're likely to strangle
yourself, break your neck, or hyperextend some muscles.

While the chin strap is under tension, try to release the chin strap
clip (also known as a "quick release buckle").
https://www.google.com/search?q=quick+release+buckle&tbm=isch
I just tried it on my (Giro Indicator G151X) helmet, with only a few
kg of tension, and couldn't release the chin strap (quickly or
otherwise). The harpoon shaped clips are designed to hold under
tension.

The buckle on my spare helmet did something unexpected. If I only
pushed one of the two buttons on each side, the quick release would
jam. Squeezing the remaining button did not release the buckle. In
order to release it, I had to push the buckle back together, and then
push BOTH buttons at the same time, in order to convince the buckle to
release. I doubt if a four year old could manage that. My Giro
helmet didn't jam, but did require quite a bit of force to squeeze one
or both buttons to release the buckle.

In my never humble opinion, it would not be difficult to redesign the
common "quick release buckle" so that it would release under tension
or possibly when an added release cord and D-ring is pulled.



--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D
http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

The trick would be designing the release so that it stays attached in an accident yet releases if the pressure on it stays beyond a certain time.

I have a friend who was pulled off his MTB whilst riding off-road, when a branch snagged in one of his helmet vent holes. Fortunately, other than being a bit stunned o=upon impact with the trail he was okay.

I wonder how many injuries are caused by a helmet strap not releasing when the helmet is snagged by something? I think it would be filed under "freak accident".


A very good friend of mine was once a rather rabid helmet promoter.
She actually worked in a position where helmet promotion was one of
her main duties. This was back in the early 1990s, not long after the
terribly constructed (or perhaps dishonest) Thompson & Rivara paper
had been published.

She said to me "85%, Frank! 85% benefit! And it's so simple!"

Turns out the benefit is not anywhere close to 85%. And the more you
study the details, the more you realize it's not simple at all.

- Frank Krygowski


I came across something the other day that apparently that referenced
several sources as follows:
https://www.cyclehelmets.org/1012.html

Specific research into fatalities in Sheffield, UK (Kennedy, 1996) has
shown that even if head injuries were eliminated completely, at least
50% of cyclist deaths would still occur. Most fatalities involve
multiple injuries and head injury is not the sole cause of death. The
experience of a solicitor specialising in cyclist injuries (BHRF,
1173) supports the view that deaths solely due to head injury are
unusual.

A study of cyclist crashes in Brisbane, Australia concluded that
helmets would prevent very few fatalities (Corner, Whitney, O'Rourke
and Morgan, 1987). All deaths were caused through collisions between a
bicycle and a motor vehicle. For 13 of the 14 cyclists who died, there
was no indication that a helmet might have made any difference.

In inner London, 58% of cyclist fatalities were caused by collisions
with heavy good vehicles, as were 30% of those in outer London
(Gilbert and McCarthy,1994). The idea that a lightweight polystyrene
helmet could be of significant benefit in such circumstances is
unrealistic...

There are a number of other references in the article, one of which
titled "Cyclist injury data before and after helmet law in Western
Australia" demonstrating that hospital admissions, referenced to the
number of cyclists, actually rose with the advent of the mandantory
helmet law.


There's plenty of data showing that the massive uptake in bike helmets
hasn't caused a detectable reduction in fatalities. That means that that
thousands of people who were promoting helmets as absolutely necessary
life savers were wrong. It also means that the vast majority of the
countless "my helmet saved my life" stories must be wrong. They're not
dishonest; they're just wrong.

There's also data showing that bike helmets haven't reduced cyclist's
traumatic brain injuries. Bicyclist concussions have gone up, way up,
over the last decade just as helmet use continued to rise.

But that hasn't stopped the helmet promotion. Even on this group, we've
had people who used to say helmets saved lives or prevent brain
injuries. Now they piously say they wear a helmet only to prevent minor
injuries.

But they never ride without it.


--
- Frank Krygowski
  #24  
Old January 19th 20, 06:02 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
JBeattie
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5,870
Default Sad helmet incident

On Sunday, January 19, 2020 at 8:38:52 AM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 1/18/2020 11:21 PM, John B. wrote:
On Sat, 18 Jan 2020 19:07:56 -0800 (PST), Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On Saturday, January 18, 2020 at 8:38:25 PM UTC-5, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Saturday, 18 January 2020 19:31:22 UTC-5, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Thu, 16 Jan 2020 12:05:06 -0500, Radey Shouman
wrote:

Girl, 4, died after bike helmet got caught on branch:

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-...shire-51139789

She wasn't riding her bike at the time, but, being four years old, she
probably wasn't able to remove her own helmet.

Perhaps we should all try a simple experiment. Throw a rope over an
overhead tree branch or roof beam. Attach the other end of the rope
to your bicycle helmet. Take up the rope slack by bending your knees.
No need to lift your feed off the ground as you're likely to strangle
yourself, break your neck, or hyperextend some muscles.

While the chin strap is under tension, try to release the chin strap
clip (also known as a "quick release buckle").
https://www.google.com/search?q=quick+release+buckle&tbm=isch
I just tried it on my (Giro Indicator G151X) helmet, with only a few
kg of tension, and couldn't release the chin strap (quickly or
otherwise). The harpoon shaped clips are designed to hold under
tension.

The buckle on my spare helmet did something unexpected. If I only
pushed one of the two buttons on each side, the quick release would
jam. Squeezing the remaining button did not release the buckle. In
order to release it, I had to push the buckle back together, and then
push BOTH buttons at the same time, in order to convince the buckle to
release. I doubt if a four year old could manage that. My Giro
helmet didn't jam, but did require quite a bit of force to squeeze one
or both buttons to release the buckle.

In my never humble opinion, it would not be difficult to redesign the
common "quick release buckle" so that it would release under tension
or possibly when an added release cord and D-ring is pulled.



--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D
http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

The trick would be designing the release so that it stays attached in an accident yet releases if the pressure on it stays beyond a certain time..

I have a friend who was pulled off his MTB whilst riding off-road, when a branch snagged in one of his helmet vent holes. Fortunately, other than being a bit stunned o=upon impact with the trail he was okay.

I wonder how many injuries are caused by a helmet strap not releasing when the helmet is snagged by something? I think it would be filed under "freak accident".

A very good friend of mine was once a rather rabid helmet promoter.
She actually worked in a position where helmet promotion was one of
her main duties. This was back in the early 1990s, not long after the
terribly constructed (or perhaps dishonest) Thompson & Rivara paper
had been published.

She said to me "85%, Frank! 85% benefit! And it's so simple!"

Turns out the benefit is not anywhere close to 85%. And the more you
study the details, the more you realize it's not simple at all.

- Frank Krygowski


I came across something the other day that apparently that referenced
several sources as follows:
https://www.cyclehelmets.org/1012.html

Specific research into fatalities in Sheffield, UK (Kennedy, 1996) has
shown that even if head injuries were eliminated completely, at least
50% of cyclist deaths would still occur. Most fatalities involve
multiple injuries and head injury is not the sole cause of death. The
experience of a solicitor specialising in cyclist injuries (BHRF,
1173) supports the view that deaths solely due to head injury are
unusual.

A study of cyclist crashes in Brisbane, Australia concluded that
helmets would prevent very few fatalities (Corner, Whitney, O'Rourke
and Morgan, 1987). All deaths were caused through collisions between a
bicycle and a motor vehicle. For 13 of the 14 cyclists who died, there
was no indication that a helmet might have made any difference.

In inner London, 58% of cyclist fatalities were caused by collisions
with heavy good vehicles, as were 30% of those in outer London
(Gilbert and McCarthy,1994). The idea that a lightweight polystyrene
helmet could be of significant benefit in such circumstances is
unrealistic...

There are a number of other references in the article, one of which
titled "Cyclist injury data before and after helmet law in Western
Australia" demonstrating that hospital admissions, referenced to the
number of cyclists, actually rose with the advent of the mandantory
helmet law.


There's plenty of data showing that the massive uptake in bike helmets
hasn't caused a detectable reduction in fatalities. That means that that
thousands of people who were promoting helmets as absolutely necessary
life savers were wrong. It also means that the vast majority of the
countless "my helmet saved my life" stories must be wrong. They're not
dishonest; they're just wrong.

There's also data showing that bike helmets haven't reduced cyclist's
traumatic brain injuries. Bicyclist concussions have gone up, way up,
over the last decade just as helmet use continued to rise.

But that hasn't stopped the helmet promotion. Even on this group, we've
had people who used to say helmets saved lives or prevent brain
injuries. Now they piously say they wear a helmet only to prevent minor
injuries.

But they never ride without it.


.. . . because they would prefer to avoid scalp injury, skull fracture, maybe even mitigate concussion. Sounds like a reasonable thing to do. I'm going out in a bit -- wet pavement, poor traction, rough roads. Seems like an appropriate time for a helmet. Why not? Wearing a helmet does not crush my soul, enslave my head, embolden Big Helmet or pose any other existential threat -- at least to me. I also wear gloves for hand protection.

-- Jay Beattie.
  #25  
Old January 19th 20, 08:16 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Frank Krygowski[_4_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 10,538
Default Sad helmet incident

On 1/18/2020 10:33 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

What bothers me is how the helmet strap could end up around the
child's neck and kill by asphyxiation. If the helmet were suspended
vertically (from the center of mass), the strap would remain under the
child's chin. That would cause some damage, but would not strangle
the child. However, if the helmet straps were loose, and the helmet
slid towards the back of the head, the child could conceivably be
strangled by straps. However, the helmet would be in a very odd and
unusual position. Try to visualize where a helmet and straps would
need to be positioned into order to wrap around the neck.


In real life, helmets are very frequently worn in really weird
positions. To explain reasons a mandatory helmet law would not work, I
heard one very knowledgeable citizen describe the common "Easter bonnet"
style, wearing helmets tilted far back so the forehead was completely
exposed. It goes against the instructions supplied with every helmet,
but it's still very commonly done, especially by kids.

In fact, I earlier mentioned a good friend who used to be a major helmet
promoter. (She's not nearly so adamant now.) But despite her previous
professional position promoting helmets, she often wears hers "Easter
bonnet" style. (I don't bother to correct her.)

That's not the only possible mistake. I once saw a tri-fold helmet
promotion brochure that featured a picture of a smiling kid whose helmet
was on backwards.

But the most ludicrous example I saw was on a recreational trail we were
riding during a long bike tour. It was a hot summer day, and we came
across a woman wearing a big-brimmed straw hat, probably for sun
protection. On top of the crown of the straw hat was perched her bike
helmet.

She must have thought the magic force field extends a long way.

--
- Frank Krygowski
  #26  
Old January 19th 20, 08:39 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Frank Krygowski[_4_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 10,538
Default Sad helmet incident

On 1/19/2020 12:02 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Sunday, January 19, 2020 at 8:38:52 AM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
Even on this group, we've
had people who used to say helmets saved lives or prevent brain
injuries. Now they piously say they wear a helmet only to prevent minor
injuries.

But they never ride without it.


. . . because they would prefer to avoid scalp injury, skull fracture, maybe even mitigate concussion. Sounds like a reasonable thing to do. I'm going out in a bit -- wet pavement, poor traction, rough roads. Seems like an appropriate time for a helmet. Why not? Wearing a helmet does not crush my soul, enslave my head, embolden Big Helmet or pose any other existential threat -- at least to me. I also wear gloves for hand protection.


You're allowed to wear it, Jay. You can justify it to yourself however
you like. Ditto the gloves.

But two points:

First, I also ride roads that are famous - or rather, notorious - for
roughness. (I can explain why in terms of state funding for county
roads, if you like.) I'm sure I ride far fewer miles on wet roads than
you, but I still ride them, the last time being about five days ago.
It's certainly possible to do these things without hitting one's head.
Since becoming an adult, the only time my head ever touched earth
(lightly) from a bike crash was about 12 years ago, when our tandem's
forks suddenly snapped off.

I think I'm more cautious than you. Maybe that's because I don't feel
protected by a helmet?

Second point: The people I'm talking about say they _never_ ride without
a helmet. I also know people who never ride without gloves. Really? Is
_every_ ride so dangerous that protective gear is needed?

I strongly suspect that most of those people will jump in a car to ride
two blocks to buy a magazine. And indeed, I recall the day when I had
ridden my bike less than half a mile to a store, where a guy I know said
"Where's your helmet??"

This mania for protection - but ONLY when traveling by bicycle - can't
help but dissuade a lot of bike use.


--
- Frank Krygowski
  #27  
Old January 19th 20, 08:45 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Jeff Liebermann
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 4,018
Default Sad helmet incident

On Sun, 19 Jan 2020 11:38:34 -0500, Frank Krygowski
wrote:
There's plenty of data showing that the massive uptake in bike helmets
hasn't caused a detectable reduction in fatalities. That means that that
thousands of people who were promoting helmets as absolutely necessary
life savers were wrong.

(...)

I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but it is very unlikely that
bicycle helmets will disappear or be outlawed in the foreseeable
future. Even if some neutral organization could be found to sponsor a
long term study proving that bicycle helmets cause some accidents, are
unsafe, and generally fail to deliver on advertised promises, bicycle
helmets will not disappear from the market or from general use.

That's because the PERCEPTION of safety is what sells bicycle helmets.
To the GUM (great unwashed masses), one is simply not riding safely
without a bicycle helmet. Visions of someone's head hitting the
pavement is sufficient to inspire even the most scientifically and
statistically astute parent into buying helmets for everyone in the
family. Better safe than sorry, and such. As long as the PERCEPTION
of safety persists, helmets are here to stay.

So, what is an RBT reading geek to do? If helmets are not going to
disappear, and many people seem to want helmets, then at least make
them better, more functional, more usable, cheaper, and in this case,
less dangerous to small children. Minor tweaks to the design of a
chin strap are not going to affect global use and sales of helmets,
but it might save the lives of a few kids.


Drivel: Not one of the replies to my original topic on bicycle radar
signatures addressed the original topic. At a minimum, I expected
someone to ask about the visibility of a carbon fiber bicycle on 77GHz
radar. My comment about radar reflectors was not a joke. To me, it's
all very disappointing.


--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D
http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558
  #28  
Old January 19th 20, 09:27 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Bertrand[_3_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 52
Default Sad helmet incident

On 1/19/2020 11:38 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:

Bicyclist concussions have gone up, way up, over the last decade
just as helmet use continued to rise.


You've made that claim before. But we know that there have been huge changes in
the way concussions are diagnosed and reported, which have led to concussions
"going way up" in many sports, not just cycling. Without a more careful
analysis, we can't draw any credible conclusions about helmet effectiveness from
the increase in reported bicycle concussions.
  #29  
Old January 19th 20, 11:34 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
jOHN b.
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,421
Default Sad helmet incident

On Sun, 19 Jan 2020 11:45:42 -0800, Jeff Liebermann
wrote:

On Sun, 19 Jan 2020 11:38:34 -0500, Frank Krygowski
wrote:
There's plenty of data showing that the massive uptake in bike helmets
hasn't caused a detectable reduction in fatalities. That means that that
thousands of people who were promoting helmets as absolutely necessary
life savers were wrong.

(...)

I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but it is very unlikely that
bicycle helmets will disappear or be outlawed in the foreseeable
future. Even if some neutral organization could be found to sponsor a
long term study proving that bicycle helmets cause some accidents, are
unsafe, and generally fail to deliver on advertised promises, bicycle
helmets will not disappear from the market or from general use.

That's because the PERCEPTION of safety is what sells bicycle helmets.
To the GUM (great unwashed masses), one is simply not riding safely
without a bicycle helmet. Visions of someone's head hitting the
pavement is sufficient to inspire even the most scientifically and
statistically astute parent into buying helmets for everyone in the
family. Better safe than sorry, and such. As long as the PERCEPTION
of safety persists, helmets are here to stay.

So, what is an RBT reading geek to do? If helmets are not going to
disappear, and many people seem to want helmets, then at least make
them better, more functional, more usable, cheaper, and in this case,
less dangerous to small children. Minor tweaks to the design of a
chin strap are not going to affect global use and sales of helmets,
but it might save the lives of a few kids.


Drivel: Not one of the replies to my original topic on bicycle radar
signatures addressed the original topic. At a minimum, I expected
someone to ask about the visibility of a carbon fiber bicycle on 77GHz
radar. My comment about radar reflectors was not a joke. To me, it's
all very disappointing.


As I understand it radar "reflection" is largely a matter of area and
angles - see discussions of radar invisibility - thus the economical
response to not being seen by stop lights, etc. is a large area,
probably of some sort of metal.

If this metal reflector were to e painted with some bright, possibly
reflective, paint it would have a two way effect making the bicycle
both more visible to human and micro frequency frequencies AND in
addition it might be possible to use this reflector as a sail or even
as support for solar panels to aid in generating electrical power for
lights, communication devices and even (gulp) propulsion.
--
cheers,

John B.

  #30  
Old January 19th 20, 11:40 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
JBeattie
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5,870
Default Sad helmet incident

On Sunday, January 19, 2020 at 11:39:07 AM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 1/19/2020 12:02 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Sunday, January 19, 2020 at 8:38:52 AM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
Even on this group, we've
had people who used to say helmets saved lives or prevent brain
injuries. Now they piously say they wear a helmet only to prevent minor
injuries.

But they never ride without it.


. . . because they would prefer to avoid scalp injury, skull fracture, maybe even mitigate concussion. Sounds like a reasonable thing to do. I'm going out in a bit -- wet pavement, poor traction, rough roads. Seems like an appropriate time for a helmet. Why not? Wearing a helmet does not crush my soul, enslave my head, embolden Big Helmet or pose any other existential threat -- at least to me. I also wear gloves for hand protection.


You're allowed to wear it, Jay. You can justify it to yourself however
you like. Ditto the gloves.

But two points:

First, I also ride roads that are famous - or rather, notorious - for
roughness. (I can explain why in terms of state funding for county
roads, if you like.) I'm sure I ride far fewer miles on wet roads than
you, but I still ride them, the last time being about five days ago.
It's certainly possible to do these things without hitting one's head.
Since becoming an adult, the only time my head ever touched earth
(lightly) from a bike crash was about 12 years ago, when our tandem's
forks suddenly snapped off.

I think I'm more cautious than you. Maybe that's because I don't feel
protected by a helmet?

Second point: The people I'm talking about say they _never_ ride without
a helmet. I also know people who never ride without gloves. Really? Is
_every_ ride so dangerous that protective gear is needed?

I strongly suspect that most of those people will jump in a car to ride
two blocks to buy a magazine. And indeed, I recall the day when I had
ridden my bike less than half a mile to a store, where a guy I know said
"Where's your helmet??"

This mania for protection - but ONLY when traveling by bicycle - can't
help but dissuade a lot of bike use.


Speaking of manias, you've made helmets your own white whale or bete noire -- pick your color. If you don't want to wear a helmet, fine. Helmets have prevented me from having more extensive injuries, so I wear one. I don't see the same deep, deep downside as you. And no, there is no giant conspiracy to pass a MHL in Oregon, so I'm not going to agonize over looming helmet laws and the possible enslavement of my hair.

-- Jay Beattie.
 




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