Helmet Nazis at It Again!

Note: followups trimmed to bicycle-only newsgroups.

On Sat, 16 Sep 2006 11:40:24 -0700, frkrygow wrote:


Tom Keats wrote:
In article .com,
"Pat" writes:

As an aside, many helmets are not used correctly and therefore have
their safety compromized. They are really "one use" items. If you
bonk your head or even drop the helmet, its time for a new one.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

I'm curious -- what happens to the styrofoam if a helmet is dropped on
the floor from, say, handlebar height? How /exactly/ does it fracture
or fail?

FWIW, I believe the "drop it, replace it" rule of thumb is a figment of
people's imaginations. I'm not aware of any helmet company saying
that. (Granted, some dedicated helmet promoters may have said that -
but they tend to be a trifle irrational.)

Dropping an "empty" helmet is unlikely to compress the foam. The mass
of the helmet isn't significant, so the force to decelerate it isn't
significant. That force is insufficent to compress the foam.

Agreed. If you drop a *motorcycle* helmet from a significant
height, then the helmet's own mass can lead to damage to the shell, which
is itself sacrificial, as is the EPS lining within. But then, comparing
motorcycle helmets to bicycle helmets is ludicrous.

It is, I think, the association with motorcycle helmets that gets
people to be true believers in bicycle helmets. There is no way a
one-pound (at most), full-of-ventilation-holes bicycle helmet is going to
offer the same level of protection as a four-pound, hard-shell-encased,
full-faced motorcycle helmet. Even that motorcycle helmet has severe
limitations; however, given the relative speeds, if I go down on my
motorcycle helmet, I'd rather abrade the shell of the helmet against the
asphalt than my own skin and bone.

Of course, if you try riding a bicycle in a full-face motorcycle helmet
(and, in fact, I used to wear a shorty motorcycle helmet while bicycling),
you're going to have severe issues with heat build-up, and the weight of
the helmet is going to make your neck and upper back hurt.

Would you believe it--I've had people tell me (and they believed it)
that Fabio Casartelli would still be alive today if he had been wearing a
bicycle helmet! In his crash, not even the best motorcycle helmet would
have saved him.

--
Chris BeHanna


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On Sat, 16 Sep 2006 20:22:09 GMT, (Bill Z.)
wrote:

(Tom Keats) writes:

In article ,
(Bill Z.) writes:


That doesn't work very well when you live, as I do, in a
MHL zone and the person you tell to f____ off is the cop
writing you a no-helmet ticket.

Did you write to your elected representative before your MHL law was
passed? I did in California, pointing out that we had adults in town
who road very short distances to a train station to commute to work
and that their commute was safer than driving regardless of whether
they used a helmet or not because most of the distance was by train,
the safest mode of transportation. I also pointed out bike locker
shortages and vandalism problems at the train stations, making leaving
a helmet with the bike problematic.

You are to be commended - some people posting to these newsgroups who
claim to be active California cyclists did not even know that an MHL
existed in California.

Eventually a MHL was passed but
it only applied to those too young to drive.


I believe the MHL in California applies to those under 18 - is that
the driving age in that state?

And as for the use of the term "only" - there are over 10 million
residents who are currently required to wear a helmet while cycling;
California passed the first MHL in the United states, and has
continued to expand the number and situations where people must do so.
Wiht recent moves towards "rationalisation" such as that in Ohio, it
would not be surprising to see all Californians fall under another
MHL.

On Sat, 16 Sep 2006 16:35:55 -0400, Chris BeHanna
wrote:


Would you believe it--I've had people tell me (and they believed it)
that Fabio Casartelli would still be alive today if he had been wearing a
bicycle helmet! In his crash, not even the best motorcycle helmet would
have saved him.

In a sense they may have been (sort of) correct.

We know that having to wear a helmet puts people off cycling. If he'd
been made to wear one while young, he could quite possible have
stopped cycling as a sport and done something (or nothing) else, and
so would not have died as he did.

"Gary L. Burnore" wrote in message
...
On 16 Sep 2006 10:40:24 -0700, wrote:


Tom Keats wrote:
In article .com,
"Pat" writes:

As an aside, many helmets are not used correctly and therefore have
their safety compromized. They are really "one use" items. If you
bonk your head or even drop the helmet, its time for a new one.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

I'm curious -- what happens to the styrofoam if a helmet is dropped on
the floor from, say, handlebar height? How /exactly/ does it fracture
or fail?

FWIW, I believe the "drop it, replace it" rule of thumb is a figment of
people's imaginations. I'm not aware of any helmet company saying
that. (Granted, some dedicated helmet promoters may have said that -
but they tend to be a trifle irrational.)

For bicycles:

From the Bell website:

How often should a helmet be replaced under normal wear and tear?
Bell has a general recommendation of replacing a helmet every three
(3) years. If you have any questions as to the condition of your
helmet please call us for information or to set up a free inspection.

What if a helmet becomes damaged?
If the helmet is visibly damaged (cracked outer shell, crushed or
cracked foam liner or any other damage) or involved in a serious
crash, don't use it. Damage to a helmet is not always visible! Some or
all of the helmet's protective capacity is used up when impacted.






For motorcycles:

From the Shoei Website:

Helmet Replacement
Ultimately, the useful service life of a safety helmet is dependent on
the intensity and frequency of its use. Helmet replacement is
recommended even if only one of the under-mentioned points applies:

1. The helmet was subjected to an impact.
2. The comfort padding or the retention system has become loose due
to heavy use or display signs of deterioration.
3. The synthetic foam padding displays signs of heavy use and the
helmet feels too loose. Test: with the retention system fastened, the
helmet turns to the side when you gently shake your head.
4. There are indentations in the EPS liner and/or white scratches
can be seen on surfaces with black paint.
5. Even if none of these is applied, we, SHOEI, recommend
replacement in 5 years after it's first purchased at retail.




Dropping an "empty" helmet is unlikely to compress the foam. The mass
of the helmet isn't significant, so the force to decelerate it isn't
significant. That force is insufficent to compress the foam.

Admittedly, I've seen helmets crack their "microshell" upon being
dropped. But that's almost entirely cosmetic.

Not according the manufacturers.

And it wouldn't
surprise me if a manufacturer purposely chose a brittle, UV-degradeable
plastic for the microshell to promote such cracking and thus more
sales. (Current microshells look like brittle styrene, or other
vacuum-formable thermoplastics; they're certainly not fiberglass.)

The real rule of thumb is, if you've damaged it in a crash, replace it.

For you it's real.
--
gburnore at DataBasix dot Com
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WTF are you doing over here. Gave up on us conservatives in the other
newsgroup?

Charles of Schaumburg

Chris BeHanna wrote:
Followups trimmed to only groups that have "bicycle" in them.

On Sat, 16 Sep 2006 09:17:40 -0500, Roger Houston wrote:

"Bill Baka" wrote in message
.. .
The major part of his liver fell in the exact middle of their cloth. His
head, unhurt, was about 50 feet away, without a helmet.
You are SO full of ****.

So plonk him. If everyone who can't stand the BS he spouts plonks him,
then it will be as if he weren't even here. Your own S/N ratio view of
r.b.m will increase, even if the actual S/N ratio of r.b.m does not.

It isn't BS. It actually happened in the town of Santa Cruz in the 70's.
The train was coming slowly across the bridge and slowing even more
because of the people and cars on the street. Some drunk 20 something
went onto the bridge and tried to show off by hopping on the train and
due to his excess inebriation he missed and went under the wheels of a
boxcar. Since the bridge had spaces between the ties the pieces of him
went through the ties and onto the people below. My wife and her son
from her first marriage saw it somewhere between 1974 and 1977 when I
met her. I don't know the name of the paper there or I would try to look
it up, but my XP just took a dump and I have spent 9 hours installing
2000 Pro so I am not really a happy computer operator right now. I may
just transfer everything over to Ubuntu Linux which I installed last
week, with Mozilla Firefox and Thunderbird which I am using now, plus
open office.org suite, and it does not crash. It did about 100 updates
while I was working and I didn't have to reboot even once. Let's see
Windows of any vintage do that.

Anyway, Google is useless for finding one incident back then since the
narrowest searches I could perform either got me 40,000 hits on junk, or
if put quotes around "Santa Cruz" and "train fatalities" I got 3 that
weren't even related. If anybody knows a better search engine I will
post the information if it hasn't been buried in microfiche.

Bill Baka

Why in the hell would I post BS about something I had nothing to do with?

My gripe is being on r.b.m and all the excessive cross posts, so I never
know who I am replying to. Brickston and Dolan did that.

My sympathies to Bill for his tooth injuries.

Ted.

On Sat, 16 Sep 2006 23:06:38 GMT, Bill Baka wrote:

Chris BeHanna wrote:
Followups trimmed to only groups that have "bicycle" in them.

On Sat, 16 Sep 2006 09:17:40 -0500, Roger Houston wrote:

"Bill Baka" wrote in message
.. .
The major part of his liver fell in the exact middle of their cloth. His
head, unhurt, was about 50 feet away, without a helmet.
You are SO full of ****.

So plonk him. If everyone who can't stand the BS he spouts plonks him,
then it will be as if he weren't even here. Your own S/N ratio view of
r.b.m will increase, even if the actual S/N ratio of r.b.m does not.

It isn't BS. It actually happened in the town of Santa Cruz in the 70's.
The train was coming slowly across the bridge and then blah, blah, blah, blah,
blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah,, blah, blah, blah, blah,
blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah,

mercy snip




Bill Baka

My gripe is being on r.b.m and all the excessive cross posts, so I never
know who I am replying to. Brickston and Dolan did that.

1. One more time- Hey, jerkoff, Dolan and I are not the source for
starting or changing threads to go to multiple groups. Why don't you
cut the address list down, moron. Here's the groups you just posted
to:

nyc.bicycles,rec.bicycles.soc,rec.bicycles.misc

Can you figure out how to limit it to the group or groups you want,
****wit? Mr. Computer Expert Running Linux - Baka, you're a joke.

2. Here are Billy's most used lines:

"It isn't BS."

"It actually happened..."

R Brickston wrote:
On Sat, 16 Sep 2006 23:06:38 GMT, Bill Baka wrote:

Chris BeHanna wrote:
Followups trimmed to only groups that have "bicycle" in them.

On Sat, 16 Sep 2006 09:17:40 -0500, Roger Houston wrote:

"Bill Baka" wrote in message
.. .
The major part of his liver fell in the exact middle of their cloth. His
head, unhurt, was about 50 feet away, without a helmet.
You are SO full of ****.
So plonk him. If everyone who can't stand the BS he spouts plonks him,
then it will be as if he weren't even here. Your own S/N ratio view of
r.b.m will increase, even if the actual S/N ratio of r.b.m does not.

It isn't BS. It actually happened in the town of Santa Cruz in the 70's.
The train was coming slowly across the bridge and then blah, blah, blah, blah,
blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah,, blah, blah, blah, blah,
blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah,

mercy snip



Bill Baka

My gripe is being on r.b.m and all the excessive cross posts, so I never
know who I am replying to. Brickston and Dolan did that.

1. One more time- Hey, jerkoff, Dolan and I are not the source for
starting or changing threads to go to multiple groups. Why don't you
cut the address list down, moron. Here's the groups you just posted
to:

nyc.bicycles,rec.bicycles.soc,rec.bicycles.misc

Yeah I know that, brick****, but I don't know who sent the post.

Can you figure out how to limit it to the group or groups you want,
****wit? Mr. Computer Expert Running Linux - Baka, you're a joke.

I can cut it down if I know who I am replying too, but I didn't.
Yeah, this computer expert is using Red Hat, Debian, Ubuntu, IBM /
Novell, and more. Ubuntu is the easiest for the average person to use so
I will probably recommend it to my home customers who are sick of paying
Microsuck so much money.

2. Here are Billy's most used lines:

"It isn't BS."

"It actually happened..."

You can go back to your padded room now, where apparently nothing
happens but they gave you a computer to irritate people on newsgroups.
Just exactly what kind of mental illness do you have?
Terminal asshole? If they let you out on the street someone would
probably do the world a big favor and break your neck.

Try this link.

http://www.santacruzsentinel.com/archive/archive.html

I sent a letter to the editor to see if he knew anything about it.
Their archives only go back to 1999 so I asked if he could put me in
contact with the police on this one. My wife and stepson saw it happen
in 1977, not me.
BTW, you are plonked, but if you can get a lead on this you will just
prove me right and you an even bigger asshole, so I am not holding my
breath over you. I wouldn't **** on you if you were on fire. Throw
gasoline, yes, **** on you I wouldn't waste the water.
Live short and don't prosper, jerk.
Bill Baka

"Bill Baka" wrote in message
...

I sent a letter to the editor to see if he knew anything about it.
Their archives only go back to 1999 so I asked if he could put me in
contact with the police on this one.

Whatever is wrong with you, I'll bet it's pretty hard to pronounce.

On Sat, 16 Sep 2006 23:44:09 GMT, Bill Baka wrote:

R Brickston wrote:
On Sat, 16 Sep 2006 23:06:38 GMT, Bill Baka wrote:

Chris BeHanna wrote:
Followups trimmed to only groups that have "bicycle" in them.

On Sat, 16 Sep 2006 09:17:40 -0500, Roger Houston wrote:

"Bill Baka" wrote in message
.. .
The major part of his liver fell in the exact middle of their cloth. His
head, unhurt, was about 50 feet away, without a helmet.
You are SO full of ****.
So plonk him. If everyone who can't stand the BS he spouts plonks him,
then it will be as if he weren't even here. Your own S/N ratio view of
r.b.m will increase, even if the actual S/N ratio of r.b.m does not.

It isn't BS. It actually happened in the town of Santa Cruz in the 70's.
The train was coming slowly across the bridge and then blah, blah, blah, blah,
blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah,, blah, blah, blah, blah,
blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah,

mercy snip



Bill Baka

My gripe is being on r.b.m and all the excessive cross posts, so I never
know who I am replying to. Brickston and Dolan did that.

1. One more time- Hey, jerkoff, Dolan and I are not the source for
starting or changing threads to go to multiple groups. Why don't you
cut the address list down, moron. Here's the groups you just posted
to:

nyc.bicycles,rec.bicycles.soc,rec.bicycles.misc

Yeah I know that, brick****, but I don't know who sent the post.

Well, Doofus, you know that this message came from me and what group I
reside on, and yet you neglected to pare the group list back, asswipe.


Can you figure out how to limit it to the group or groups you want,
****wit? Mr. Computer Expert Running Linux - Baka, you're a joke.

I can cut it down if I know who I am replying too, but I didn't.

Read my response above, Computer Meister.

Yeah, this computer expert is using Red Hat, Debian, Ubuntu, IBM /
Novell, and more. Ubuntu is the easiest for the average person to use so
I will probably recommend it to my home customers who are sick of paying
Microsuck so much money.

Clueless, as usual.


2. Here are Billy's most used lines:

"It isn't BS."

"It actually happened..."

You can go back to your padded room now, where apparently nothing
happens but they gave you a computer to irritate people on newsgroups.
Just exactly what kind of mental illness do you have?
Terminal asshole? If they let you out on the street someone would
probably do the world a big favor and break your neck.

There ya go with the violence again.


Try this link.

http://www.santacruzsentinel.com/archive/archive.html

I sent a letter to the editor to see if he knew anything about it.
Their archives only go back to 1999 so I asked if he could put me in
contact with the police on this one. My wife and stepson saw it happen
in 1977, not me.
BTW, you are plonked,

Plonked? You moron, what's that, for the 10th time already?

but if you can get a lead on this you will just
prove me right and you an even bigger asshole, so I am not holding my
breath over you. I wouldn't **** on you if you were on fire. Throw
gasoline, yes, **** on you I wouldn't waste the water.
Live short and don't prosper, jerk.
Bill Baka

Dickweed, no one said the accident did not happen, I just have my
doubts about the guy's liver landing in the middle of someone's lunch.
You have too much bs Baka. And if you find your article it better have
the "liver picnic" included.