Better Braking?

On Friday, February 7, 2020 at 7:48:07 AM UTC-8, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Friday, 7 February 2020 10:01:13 UTC-5, jbeattie wrote:
On Thursday, February 6, 2020 at 5:15:30 PM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Thursday, February 6, 2020 at 5:14:45 PM UTC-5, jbeattie wrote:
On Thursday, February 6, 2020 at 11:54:55 AM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 2/6/2020 1:30 PM, wrote:
On Thursday, February 6, 2020 at 6:42:54 PM UTC+1, Frank Krygowski wrote:

We've seen the same thing regarding bicycle equipment. Many of us
remember the blind test of five identical unmarked frames made of
different steel tubing, which the "expert" bike testers couldn't tell
apart despite their years of rhapsodizing about minute changes in ride
quality. People have adamant opinions on the critical responsiveness of
shifting systems where the differences must be measured in hundredths of
a second. And I've known people, and we still have people, who claim a
0.05% weight difference is not only detectable but important.

Now have people fiercely arguing about "better" braking, even in dry
weather, from various brakes, with no clear definition of "better."


Gee Frank I didn't know that. Thank you for pointing that out to me. Still lecturing even when you are retired. Thumbs up.....
Put me on my bike with hydraulic disk brakes or on my bike with single/dual pivot brakes blindfolded in dry conditions and I will tell you with 100% certainty which brakes are on which bike.

Identification isn't the issue. Benefits vs. detriments are the issue -
or should be.

Do you care to address any of the technical points in that Santana
article? https://santanatandem.com/brake-tech/

Are your discs "better" for long fast descents, like this guy's?
https://bikerumor.com/2012/02/14/roa...ill-they-work/
Granted, it's an old article, but there is lots of specific technical
discussion - not all of it correct, of course.

Here, ISTM we could use more tech discussion, more specifics.

That disc failure occurred after three minutes (and nine seconds) of descending at 30mph with an elevation loss of 493 feet in a mile and a half. Wow, that means I'd have brake failure twice just riding into work over the West Hills. Do you think there might be a problem with those brakes?

Yes, a problem I've never had with cantilever brakes.

- Frank Krygowski

And not a problem I've had in 15 years of riding road discs, cable and hydraulic. I was unable to stop my canti-equipped touring bike while hauling my son in a Burley trailer in the rain once, and I had trouble stopping a bike with Universal CX brakes once (don't know why they were an issue) -- and I had trouble stopping a front cable discs once because I wore the pads down and didn't spin-in the adjuster (it's automatic on hydro discs). A quick adjustment solved that. I've done 14-15 mile descents (Larch Mountain) on discs with no problems. Like I said, the brakes in that article had problems beyond any inherent in the design. 400-500 feet of descending is nothing. That's half the descending I can do just riding into town over the hills, which I've done on discs many, many times.

-- Jay Beattie.

I've said it before that I notice a big difference in the stopping distance of my dropbar snow bike in slop with the V-brakes over what the cantilever brakes did on the same wheels, the same bike and the same conditions. Those cantilever brakes were properly set up too.

If I was buying a new bike I might consider disc brakes provided I positively knew they wouldn't be noisy when not applied. Disc brake noise is something I see posted about a lot on various forums.

Cheers

There are road bike/CX bike cantilevers and MTB cantilevers. The difference is the leverage. MTB's have that long handle that is easy to exert a lot of pressure and has a long pull whereas drop-bar levers have a much shorter pull and more leverage. It is very easy to mistake the one for the other.

It is a common mistake to think they are the same when they are not.

On Friday, 7 February 2020 11:36:50 UTC-5, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Friday, February 7, 2020 at 7:48:07 AM UTC-8, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Friday, 7 February 2020 10:01:13 UTC-5, jbeattie wrote:
On Thursday, February 6, 2020 at 5:15:30 PM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Thursday, February 6, 2020 at 5:14:45 PM UTC-5, jbeattie wrote:
On Thursday, February 6, 2020 at 11:54:55 AM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 2/6/2020 1:30 PM, wrote:
On Thursday, February 6, 2020 at 6:42:54 PM UTC+1, Frank Krygowski wrote:

We've seen the same thing regarding bicycle equipment. Many of us
remember the blind test of five identical unmarked frames made of
different steel tubing, which the "expert" bike testers couldn't tell
apart despite their years of rhapsodizing about minute changes in ride
quality. People have adamant opinions on the critical responsiveness of
shifting systems where the differences must be measured in hundredths of
a second. And I've known people, and we still have people, who claim a
0.05% weight difference is not only detectable but important..

Now have people fiercely arguing about "better" braking, even in dry
weather, from various brakes, with no clear definition of "better."


Gee Frank I didn't know that. Thank you for pointing that out to me. Still lecturing even when you are retired. Thumbs up.....
Put me on my bike with hydraulic disk brakes or on my bike with single/dual pivot brakes blindfolded in dry conditions and I will tell you with 100% certainty which brakes are on which bike.

Identification isn't the issue. Benefits vs. detriments are the issue -
or should be.

Do you care to address any of the technical points in that Santana
article? https://santanatandem.com/brake-tech/

Are your discs "better" for long fast descents, like this guy's?
https://bikerumor.com/2012/02/14/roa...ill-they-work/
Granted, it's an old article, but there is lots of specific technical
discussion - not all of it correct, of course.

Here, ISTM we could use more tech discussion, more specifics.

That disc failure occurred after three minutes (and nine seconds) of descending at 30mph with an elevation loss of 493 feet in a mile and a half. Wow, that means I'd have brake failure twice just riding into work over the West Hills. Do you think there might be a problem with those brakes?

Yes, a problem I've never had with cantilever brakes.

- Frank Krygowski

And not a problem I've had in 15 years of riding road discs, cable and hydraulic. I was unable to stop my canti-equipped touring bike while hauling my son in a Burley trailer in the rain once, and I had trouble stopping a bike with Universal CX brakes once (don't know why they were an issue) -- and I had trouble stopping a front cable discs once because I wore the pads down and didn't spin-in the adjuster (it's automatic on hydro discs). A quick adjustment solved that. I've done 14-15 mile descents (Larch Mountain) on discs with no problems. Like I said, the brakes in that article had problems beyond any inherent in the design. 400-500 feet of descending is nothing. That's half the descending I can do just riding into town over the hills, which I've done on discs many, many times.

-- Jay Beattie.

I've said it before that I notice a big difference in the stopping distance of my dropbar snow bike in slop with the V-brakes over what the cantilever brakes did on the same wheels, the same bike and the same conditions. Those cantilever brakes were properly set up too.

If I was buying a new bike I might consider disc brakes provided I positively knew they wouldn't be noisy when not applied. Disc brake noise is something I see posted about a lot on various forums.

Cheers

There are road bike/CX bike cantilevers and MTB cantilevers. The difference is the leverage. MTB's have that long handle that is easy to exert a lot of pressure and has a long pull whereas drop-bar levers have a much shorter pull and more leverage. It is very easy to mistake the one for the other.

It is a common mistake to think they are the same when they are not.

Sorry Old Fellow, (LOL) but the cantilever brakes on my bikes are/were the proper ones for the type of bike they were on.

Cheers

On 2/7/2020 10:36 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Friday, February 7, 2020 at 7:48:07 AM UTC-8, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Friday, 7 February 2020 10:01:13 UTC-5, jbeattie wrote:
On Thursday, February 6, 2020 at 5:15:30 PM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Thursday, February 6, 2020 at 5:14:45 PM UTC-5, jbeattie wrote:
On Thursday, February 6, 2020 at 11:54:55 AM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 2/6/2020 1:30 PM, wrote:
On Thursday, February 6, 2020 at 6:42:54 PM UTC+1, Frank Krygowski wrote:

We've seen the same thing regarding bicycle equipment. Many of us
remember the blind test of five identical unmarked frames made of
different steel tubing, which the "expert" bike testers couldn't tell
apart despite their years of rhapsodizing about minute changes in ride
quality. People have adamant opinions on the critical responsiveness of
shifting systems where the differences must be measured in hundredths of
a second. And I've known people, and we still have people, who claim a
0.05% weight difference is not only detectable but important.

Now have people fiercely arguing about "better" braking, even in dry
weather, from various brakes, with no clear definition of "better."


Gee Frank I didn't know that. Thank you for pointing that out to me. Still lecturing even when you are retired. Thumbs up.....
Put me on my bike with hydraulic disk brakes or on my bike with single/dual pivot brakes blindfolded in dry conditions and I will tell you with 100% certainty which brakes are on which bike.

Identification isn't the issue. Benefits vs. detriments are the issue -
or should be.

Do you care to address any of the technical points in that Santana
article? https://santanatandem.com/brake-tech/

Are your discs "better" for long fast descents, like this guy's?
https://bikerumor.com/2012/02/14/roa...ill-they-work/
Granted, it's an old article, but there is lots of specific technical
discussion - not all of it correct, of course.

Here, ISTM we could use more tech discussion, more specifics.

That disc failure occurred after three minutes (and nine seconds) of descending at 30mph with an elevation loss of 493 feet in a mile and a half. Wow, that means I'd have brake failure twice just riding into work over the West Hills. Do you think there might be a problem with those brakes?

Yes, a problem I've never had with cantilever brakes.

- Frank Krygowski

And not a problem I've had in 15 years of riding road discs, cable and hydraulic. I was unable to stop my canti-equipped touring bike while hauling my son in a Burley trailer in the rain once, and I had trouble stopping a bike with Universal CX brakes once (don't know why they were an issue) -- and I had trouble stopping a front cable discs once because I wore the pads down and didn't spin-in the adjuster (it's automatic on hydro discs). A quick adjustment solved that. I've done 14-15 mile descents (Larch Mountain) on discs with no problems. Like I said, the brakes in that article had problems beyond any inherent in the design. 400-500 feet of descending is nothing. That's half the descending I can do just riding into town over the hills, which I've done on discs many, many times.

-- Jay Beattie.

I've said it before that I notice a big difference in the stopping distance of my dropbar snow bike in slop with the V-brakes over what the cantilever brakes did on the same wheels, the same bike and the same conditions. Those cantilever brakes were properly set up too.

If I was buying a new bike I might consider disc brakes provided I positively knew they wouldn't be noisy when not applied. Disc brake noise is something I see posted about a lot on various forums.

Cheers

There are road bike/CX bike cantilevers and MTB cantilevers. The difference is the leverage. MTB's have that long handle that is easy to exert a lot of pressure and has a long pull whereas drop-bar levers have a much shorter pull and more leverage. It is very easy to mistake the one for the other.

It is a common mistake to think they are the same when they are not.


Different cantilevers for MTB/CX bikes? Really? When did
that start?

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On 2/7/2020 10:01 AM, jbeattie wrote:
On Thursday, February 6, 2020 at 5:15:30 PM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Thursday, February 6, 2020 at 5:14:45 PM UTC-5, jbeattie wrote:
On Thursday, February 6, 2020 at 11:54:55 AM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:

Are your discs "better" for long fast descents, like this guy's?
https://bikerumor.com/2012/02/14/roa...ill-they-work/
Granted, it's an old article, but there is lots of specific technical
discussion - not all of it correct, of course.

Here, ISTM we could use more tech discussion, more specifics.

That disc failure occurred after three minutes (and nine seconds) of descending at 30mph with an elevation loss of 493 feet in a mile and a half. Wow, that means I'd have brake failure twice just riding into work over the West Hills. Do you think there might be a problem with those brakes?

Yes, a problem I've never had with cantilever brakes.

- Frank Krygowski

And not a problem I've had in 15 years of riding road discs, cable and hydraulic. I was unable to stop my canti-equipped touring bike while hauling my son in a Burley trailer in the rain once, and I had trouble stopping a bike with Universal CX brakes once (don't know why they were an issue) -- and I had trouble stopping a front cable discs once because I wore the pads down and didn't spin-in the adjuster (it's automatic on hydro discs). A quick adjustment solved that. I've done 14-15 mile descents (Larch Mountain) on discs with no problems. Like I said, the brakes in that article had problems beyond any inherent in the design. 400-500 feet of descending is nothing. That's half the descending I can do just riding into town over the hills, which I've done on discs many, many times.

One thing that was pointed out in a technical article many years ago
(back when _Buycycling_ actually had technical articles) was that many
riders unconsciously descend at the speed that's absolutely worst for
brakes.

Below roughly 30 mph (50 kph), the rate of energy input (i.e. power or
heat input) to the brakes is lower, proportional to speed. Above about
30 mph, heat is shed faster due to more aerodynamic cooling. But most
avid cyclists seem to descend at about 30 mph, because they run out of
nerve going faster.

And this group being what it is, I'm forced to say I'm NOT accusing
anyone here of doing that! But as with so many other things, we should
at least wonder about the details of riding behavior and technique.

I think (I'm not sure) that the worst descent I ever did (for brakes)
was coming down the west side of Lolo Pass in Idaho. I was heavily
loaded and a bit concerned about overheating rims with my cantilevers,
so I took it pretty fast, probably 40 mph. My wife and daughter were
less heavily loaded and more cautious, and took it much slower. My wife
had cantilevers identical to mine, and my daughter had dual pivots that
I'd modified for more tire clearance. I don't know what their speed was
(and I'm only guessing at mine), but we all did fine.

Ditto crossing the Appalachians a couple times, which tend to have much
steeper but shorter descents. Ditto many Appalachian foothills, etc, etc.

That Lolo Pass descent is scary steep for the first, oh, maybe five
miles or so. After that, it gets wonderful. It's roughly 100 miles of
beautiful easy descent with lovely scenery.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On Friday, February 7, 2020 at 9:47:25 AM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
On 2/7/2020 10:36 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Friday, February 7, 2020 at 7:48:07 AM UTC-8, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Friday, 7 February 2020 10:01:13 UTC-5, jbeattie wrote:
On Thursday, February 6, 2020 at 5:15:30 PM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Thursday, February 6, 2020 at 5:14:45 PM UTC-5, jbeattie wrote:
On Thursday, February 6, 2020 at 11:54:55 AM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 2/6/2020 1:30 PM, wrote:
On Thursday, February 6, 2020 at 6:42:54 PM UTC+1, Frank Krygowski wrote:

We've seen the same thing regarding bicycle equipment. Many of us
remember the blind test of five identical unmarked frames made of
different steel tubing, which the "expert" bike testers couldn't tell
apart despite their years of rhapsodizing about minute changes in ride
quality. People have adamant opinions on the critical responsiveness of
shifting systems where the differences must be measured in hundredths of
a second. And I've known people, and we still have people, who claim a
0.05% weight difference is not only detectable but important.

Now have people fiercely arguing about "better" braking, even in dry
weather, from various brakes, with no clear definition of "better."


Gee Frank I didn't know that. Thank you for pointing that out to me. Still lecturing even when you are retired. Thumbs up.....
Put me on my bike with hydraulic disk brakes or on my bike with single/dual pivot brakes blindfolded in dry conditions and I will tell you with 100% certainty which brakes are on which bike.

Identification isn't the issue. Benefits vs. detriments are the issue -
or should be.

Do you care to address any of the technical points in that Santana
article? https://santanatandem.com/brake-tech/

Are your discs "better" for long fast descents, like this guy's?
https://bikerumor.com/2012/02/14/roa...ill-they-work/
Granted, it's an old article, but there is lots of specific technical
discussion - not all of it correct, of course.

Here, ISTM we could use more tech discussion, more specifics.

That disc failure occurred after three minutes (and nine seconds) of descending at 30mph with an elevation loss of 493 feet in a mile and a half. Wow, that means I'd have brake failure twice just riding into work over the West Hills. Do you think there might be a problem with those brakes?

Yes, a problem I've never had with cantilever brakes.

- Frank Krygowski

And not a problem I've had in 15 years of riding road discs, cable and hydraulic. I was unable to stop my canti-equipped touring bike while hauling my son in a Burley trailer in the rain once, and I had trouble stopping a bike with Universal CX brakes once (don't know why they were an issue) -- and I had trouble stopping a front cable discs once because I wore the pads down and didn't spin-in the adjuster (it's automatic on hydro discs). A quick adjustment solved that. I've done 14-15 mile descents (Larch Mountain) on discs with no problems. Like I said, the brakes in that article had problems beyond any inherent in the design. 400-500 feet of descending is nothing. That's half the descending I can do just riding into town over the hills, which I've done on discs many, many times.

-- Jay Beattie.

I've said it before that I notice a big difference in the stopping distance of my dropbar snow bike in slop with the V-brakes over what the cantilever brakes did on the same wheels, the same bike and the same conditions. Those cantilever brakes were properly set up too.

If I was buying a new bike I might consider disc brakes provided I positively knew they wouldn't be noisy when not applied. Disc brake noise is something I see posted about a lot on various forums.

Cheers

There are road bike/CX bike cantilevers and MTB cantilevers. The difference is the leverage. MTB's have that long handle that is easy to exert a lot of pressure and has a long pull whereas drop-bar levers have a much shorter pull and more leverage. It is very easy to mistake the one for the other.

On Friday, February 7, 2020 at 11:09:15 AM UTC-8, jbeattie wrote:
On Friday, February 7, 2020 at 9:47:25 AM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
On 2/7/2020 10:36 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Friday, February 7, 2020 at 7:48:07 AM UTC-8, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Friday, 7 February 2020 10:01:13 UTC-5, jbeattie wrote:
On Thursday, February 6, 2020 at 5:15:30 PM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Thursday, February 6, 2020 at 5:14:45 PM UTC-5, jbeattie wrote:
On Thursday, February 6, 2020 at 11:54:55 AM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 2/6/2020 1:30 PM, wrote:
On Thursday, February 6, 2020 at 6:42:54 PM UTC+1, Frank Krygowski wrote:

We've seen the same thing regarding bicycle equipment. Many of us
remember the blind test of five identical unmarked frames made of
different steel tubing, which the "expert" bike testers couldn't tell
apart despite their years of rhapsodizing about minute changes in ride
quality. People have adamant opinions on the critical responsiveness of
shifting systems where the differences must be measured in hundredths of
a second. And I've known people, and we still have people, who claim a
0.05% weight difference is not only detectable but important.

Now have people fiercely arguing about "better" braking, even in dry
weather, from various brakes, with no clear definition of "better."


Gee Frank I didn't know that. Thank you for pointing that out to me. Still lecturing even when you are retired. Thumbs up.....
Put me on my bike with hydraulic disk brakes or on my bike with single/dual pivot brakes blindfolded in dry conditions and I will tell you with 100% certainty which brakes are on which bike.

Identification isn't the issue. Benefits vs. detriments are the issue -
or should be.

Do you care to address any of the technical points in that Santana
article? https://santanatandem.com/brake-tech/

Are your discs "better" for long fast descents, like this guy's?
https://bikerumor.com/2012/02/14/roa...ill-they-work/
Granted, it's an old article, but there is lots of specific technical
discussion - not all of it correct, of course.

Here, ISTM we could use more tech discussion, more specifics.

That disc failure occurred after three minutes (and nine seconds) of descending at 30mph with an elevation loss of 493 feet in a mile and a half. Wow, that means I'd have brake failure twice just riding into work over the West Hills. Do you think there might be a problem with those brakes?

Yes, a problem I've never had with cantilever brakes.

- Frank Krygowski

And not a problem I've had in 15 years of riding road discs, cable and hydraulic. I was unable to stop my canti-equipped touring bike while hauling my son in a Burley trailer in the rain once, and I had trouble stopping a bike with Universal CX brakes once (don't know why they were an issue) -- and I had trouble stopping a front cable discs once because I wore the pads down and didn't spin-in the adjuster (it's automatic on hydro discs). A quick adjustment solved that. I've done 14-15 mile descents (Larch Mountain) on discs with no problems. Like I said, the brakes in that article had problems beyond any inherent in the design. 400-500 feet of descending is nothing. That's half the descending I can do just riding into town over the hills, which I've done on discs many, many times.

-- Jay Beattie.

I've said it before that I notice a big difference in the stopping distance of my dropbar snow bike in slop with the V-brakes over what the cantilever brakes did on the same wheels, the same bike and the same conditions. Those cantilever brakes were properly set up too.

If I was buying a new bike I might consider disc brakes provided I positively knew they wouldn't be noisy when not applied. Disc brake noise is something I see posted about a lot on various forums.

Cheers

There are road bike/CX bike cantilevers and MTB cantilevers. The difference is the leverage. MTB's have that long handle that is easy to exert a lot of pressure and has a long pull whereas drop-bar levers have a much shorter pull and more leverage. It is very easy to mistake the one for the other.

It is a common mistake to think they are the same when they are not.


Different cantilevers for MTB/CX bikes? Really? When did
that start?

Didn't you get the memo? Pffff. My CX friends agonized over their cantilevers -- the brakes that were good at shedding mud didn't stop well or stuck out too far, and the brakes that stopped well (better) didn't shed mud. None worked well with STI/Ergo. Spooky, Empella, Paul, etc., etc. I feel sorry for those companies now that discs have taken over.

-- Jay Beattie.

https://www.benscycle.com/Shimano-Cy...C%20% 2457.99

https://www.jensonusa.com/Tektro-CR7...ilever%20Brake

On Friday, February 7, 2020 at 11:09:15 AM UTC-8, jbeattie wrote:
On Friday, February 7, 2020 at 9:47:25 AM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
On 2/7/2020 10:36 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Friday, February 7, 2020 at 7:48:07 AM UTC-8, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Friday, 7 February 2020 10:01:13 UTC-5, jbeattie wrote:
On Thursday, February 6, 2020 at 5:15:30 PM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Thursday, February 6, 2020 at 5:14:45 PM UTC-5, jbeattie wrote:
On Thursday, February 6, 2020 at 11:54:55 AM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 2/6/2020 1:30 PM, wrote:
On Thursday, February 6, 2020 at 6:42:54 PM UTC+1, Frank Krygowski wrote:

We've seen the same thing regarding bicycle equipment. Many of us
remember the blind test of five identical unmarked frames made of
different steel tubing, which the "expert" bike testers couldn't tell
apart despite their years of rhapsodizing about minute changes in ride
quality. People have adamant opinions on the critical responsiveness of
shifting systems where the differences must be measured in hundredths of
a second. And I've known people, and we still have people, who claim a
0.05% weight difference is not only detectable but important.

Now have people fiercely arguing about "better" braking, even in dry
weather, from various brakes, with no clear definition of "better."


Gee Frank I didn't know that. Thank you for pointing that out to me. Still lecturing even when you are retired. Thumbs up.....
Put me on my bike with hydraulic disk brakes or on my bike with single/dual pivot brakes blindfolded in dry conditions and I will tell you with 100% certainty which brakes are on which bike.

Identification isn't the issue. Benefits vs. detriments are the issue -
or should be.

Do you care to address any of the technical points in that Santana
article? https://santanatandem.com/brake-tech/

Are your discs "better" for long fast descents, like this guy's?
https://bikerumor.com/2012/02/14/roa...ill-they-work/
Granted, it's an old article, but there is lots of specific technical
discussion - not all of it correct, of course.

Here, ISTM we could use more tech discussion, more specifics.

That disc failure occurred after three minutes (and nine seconds) of descending at 30mph with an elevation loss of 493 feet in a mile and a half. Wow, that means I'd have brake failure twice just riding into work over the West Hills. Do you think there might be a problem with those brakes?

Yes, a problem I've never had with cantilever brakes.

- Frank Krygowski

And not a problem I've had in 15 years of riding road discs, cable and hydraulic. I was unable to stop my canti-equipped touring bike while hauling my son in a Burley trailer in the rain once, and I had trouble stopping a bike with Universal CX brakes once (don't know why they were an issue) -- and I had trouble stopping a front cable discs once because I wore the pads down and didn't spin-in the adjuster (it's automatic on hydro discs). A quick adjustment solved that. I've done 14-15 mile descents (Larch Mountain) on discs with no problems. Like I said, the brakes in that article had problems beyond any inherent in the design. 400-500 feet of descending is nothing. That's half the descending I can do just riding into town over the hills, which I've done on discs many, many times.

-- Jay Beattie.

I've said it before that I notice a big difference in the stopping distance of my dropbar snow bike in slop with the V-brakes over what the cantilever brakes did on the same wheels, the same bike and the same conditions. Those cantilever brakes were properly set up too.

If I was buying a new bike I might consider disc brakes provided I positively knew they wouldn't be noisy when not applied. Disc brake noise is something I see posted about a lot on various forums.

Cheers

There are road bike/CX bike cantilevers and MTB cantilevers. The difference is the leverage. MTB's have that long handle that is easy to exert a lot of pressure and has a long pull whereas drop-bar levers have a much shorter pull and more leverage. It is very easy to mistake the one for the other.

It is a common mistake to think they are the same when they are not.


Different cantilevers for MTB/CX bikes? Really? When did
that start?

Didn't you get the memo? Pffff. My CX friends agonized over their cantilevers -- the brakes that were good at shedding mud didn't stop well or stuck out too far, and the brakes that stopped well (better) didn't shed mud. None worked well with STI/Ergo. Spooky, Empella, Paul, etc., etc. I feel sorry for those companies now that discs have taken over.

-- Jay Beattie.

https://www.jensonusa.com/Tektro-CR7...ilever%20Brake

https://www.benscycle.com/Shimano-Cy...C%20% 2457.99

As you can see, they are absolutely identical.

On Wed, 05 Feb 2020 09:44:45 -0600, AMuzi wrote:

People like what they like and that, for me, explains it fully,.

And tend to think that what they like is also what happens to be right,
and everyone else is therefore wrong. Which explains every
rec.bikes.tech flame war ever... ;-)


Aesthetically my favorite brake ever was the Campagnolo Nuovo Record
sidepull. Why? It was the unobtanium of my youth, the ne plus ultra,
and the brake Eddy used. Oddly enough, now I can afford to get them but
never have. Humans are funny.

On 2/7/2020 3:38 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Friday, February 7, 2020 at 11:09:15 AM UTC-8, jbeattie wrote:
On Friday, February 7, 2020 at 9:47:25 AM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
On 2/7/2020 10:36 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Friday, February 7, 2020 at 7:48:07 AM UTC-8, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Friday, 7 February 2020 10:01:13 UTC-5, jbeattie wrote:
On Thursday, February 6, 2020 at 5:15:30 PM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Thursday, February 6, 2020 at 5:14:45 PM UTC-5, jbeattie wrote:
On Thursday, February 6, 2020 at 11:54:55 AM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 2/6/2020 1:30 PM, wrote:
On Thursday, February 6, 2020 at 6:42:54 PM UTC+1, Frank Krygowski wrote:

We've seen the same thing regarding bicycle equipment. Many of us
remember the blind test of five identical unmarked frames made of
different steel tubing, which the "expert" bike testers couldn't tell
apart despite their years of rhapsodizing about minute changes in ride
quality. People have adamant opinions on the critical responsiveness of
shifting systems where the differences must be measured in hundredths of
a second. And I've known people, and we still have people, who claim a
0.05% weight difference is not only detectable but important.

Now have people fiercely arguing about "better" braking, even in dry
weather, from various brakes, with no clear definition of "better."


Gee Frank I didn't know that. Thank you for pointing that out to me. Still lecturing even when you are retired. Thumbs up.....
Put me on my bike with hydraulic disk brakes or on my bike with single/dual pivot brakes blindfolded in dry conditions and I will tell you with 100% certainty which brakes are on which bike.

Identification isn't the issue. Benefits vs. detriments are the issue -
or should be.

Do you care to address any of the technical points in that Santana
article? https://santanatandem.com/brake-tech/

Are your discs "better" for long fast descents, like this guy's?
https://bikerumor.com/2012/02/14/roa...ill-they-work/
Granted, it's an old article, but there is lots of specific technical
discussion - not all of it correct, of course.

Here, ISTM we could use more tech discussion, more specifics.

That disc failure occurred after three minutes (and nine seconds) of descending at 30mph with an elevation loss of 493 feet in a mile and a half. Wow, that means I'd have brake failure twice just riding into work over the West Hills. Do you think there might be a problem with those brakes?

Yes, a problem I've never had with cantilever brakes.

- Frank Krygowski

And not a problem I've had in 15 years of riding road discs, cable and hydraulic. I was unable to stop my canti-equipped touring bike while hauling my son in a Burley trailer in the rain once, and I had trouble stopping a bike with Universal CX brakes once (don't know why they were an issue) -- and I had trouble stopping a front cable discs once because I wore the pads down and didn't spin-in the adjuster (it's automatic on hydro discs). A quick adjustment solved that. I've done 14-15 mile descents (Larch Mountain) on discs with no problems. Like I said, the brakes in that article had problems beyond any inherent in the design. 400-500 feet of descending is nothing. That's half the descending I can do just riding into town over the hills, which I've done on discs many, many times.

-- Jay Beattie.

I've said it before that I notice a big difference in the stopping distance of my dropbar snow bike in slop with the V-brakes over what the cantilever brakes did on the same wheels, the same bike and the same conditions. Those cantilever brakes were properly set up too.

If I was buying a new bike I might consider disc brakes provided I positively knew they wouldn't be noisy when not applied. Disc brake noise is something I see posted about a lot on various forums.

Cheers

There are road bike/CX bike cantilevers and MTB cantilevers. The difference is the leverage. MTB's have that long handle that is easy to exert a lot of pressure and has a long pull whereas drop-bar levers have a much shorter pull and more leverage. It is very easy to mistake the one for the other.

It is a common mistake to think they are the same when they are not.


Different cantilevers for MTB/CX bikes? Really? When did
that start?

Didn't you get the memo? Pffff. My CX friends agonized over their cantilevers -- the brakes that were good at shedding mud didn't stop well or stuck out too far, and the brakes that stopped well (better) didn't shed mud. None worked well with STI/Ergo. Spooky, Empella, Paul, etc., etc. I feel sorry for those companies now that discs have taken over.

-- Jay Beattie.

https://www.jensonusa.com/Tektro-CR7...ilever%20Brake

https://www.benscycle.com/Shimano-Cy...C%20% 2457.99

As you can see, they are absolutely identical.


Either of those would fit and perform as well on either
style bike, What did I miss?

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Fri, 07 Feb 2020 16:41:35 -0600, Tim McNamara
wrote:

On Wed, 05 Feb 2020 09:44:45 -0600, AMuzi wrote:

People like what they like and that, for me, explains it fully,.

And tend to think that what they like is also what happens to be right,
and everyone else is therefore wrong. Which explains every
rec.bikes.tech flame war ever... ;-)

And what is so astonishing is how "they" just can seem to realize how
superior "Mine" are in comparison to all the others :-)
--
cheers,

John B.