#81
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Bottle holder
On Thursday, May 23, 2019 at 7:49:03 PM UTC-4, sms wrote:
On 5/23/2019 4:09 PM, John B. Slocomb wrote: On Thu, 23 May 2019 06:58:59 -0700, sms wrote: On 5/23/2019 3:45 AM, John B. Slocomb wrote: snip. Goodness. Here is a thing that is literally riveted (which is why it is called a "riv(et) nut") into the bike frame. You don't think it will be water proof? Rivnuts routinely become loose, even when installed at the factory. Some sort of sealant, or paint, should be used to fill the gaps that will exist. Hmm... I would suggest that you simply don't know what you are talking about as I've worked on DC-3's that wee originally built in the 1930's and there was no evidence of the de-icer boots, held on by rivnuts, coming loose. Geez, just read various forums about Rivnuts on coming loose and spinning. Or rattling. It's extremely common. This is unrelated to 1930 prop planes. Regarding improperly drilled holes, as Mike Jacubowsky, owner of Chain Reaction Bicycles in Redwood City, CA stated: "Of course, if you're not careful with the rivnut installion (for example, a jagged-edged hole), this too can cause frame failure" but he was referring to thin-wall steel tubes. I suppose that one advantage of aluminum frames is that the tubes have to be thicker to compensate for the lower strength of aluminum. No the walls of aluminium bicycle tubes do NOT have to be thicker than steel tube walls. The strength of aluminium bicycle tubes is increased by making the DIAMETER of the TUBE bigger NOT the wall thickness. Do you know ANYTHING at all about stuff you post about? From most of your posts it seems not. Cheers |
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#82
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Bottle holder
On Thursday, May 23, 2019 at 7:51:03 PM UTC-4, sms wrote:
On 5/23/2019 8:52 AM, Duane wrote: snip Much simpler to just make sure the bike has a couple of water bottle mounts when you buy it... True, but the original poster bought a very inexpensive Huffy, likely at Walmart. On these bikes they don't have the factory include such expensive luxuries as bottle mounts. Now he has to choose from one of many choices: 1. Buy a jig for $50 or so, buy a right-angle drill or close-quarters drill (or a right angle adapter), buy some Rivnuts, buy some paint, and install bottle mounts directly into the frame. Perhaps drill a drain hole in the bottom bracket. 2. Build a jig or try to drill accurate holes free-hand without a jig, buy some Rivnuts, buy some paint, and install bottle mounts directly into the frame. Perhaps drill a drain hole in the bottom bracket. 3. Use a kluge like hose clamps or cable ties. 4. Buy an accessory that creates water bottle bosses with clamps or straps that go around the frame tube. 5. Use a handlebar or seat bottle cage mount. Most people would choose 4 or 5. It would be $5-12 well spent. Most people would agree with the experts and understand that drilling holes in their frame is a not a great idea. As Jobst Brandt stated: "I don't know many riders who believe that drilling a hole in a frame tube is a reasonable concept.", though on a sub-$100 bicycle it's probably no big deal to destroy the frame if you screw up, and you could always use a clamp that covers up the hole.. 6. Drill two holes and install a Rivnut in each hole. Cheers |
#83
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Bottle holder
On 5/23/2019 7:48 PM, sms wrote:
On 5/23/2019 4:09 PM, John B. Slocomb wrote: On Thu, 23 May 2019 06:58:59 -0700, sms wrote: On 5/23/2019 3:45 AM, John B. Slocomb wrote: snip. Goodness. Here is a thing that is literally riveted (which is why it is called a "riv(et) nut") into the bike frame. You don't think it will be water proof? Rivnuts routinely become loose, even when installed at the factory. Some sort of sealant, or paint, should be used to fill the gaps that will exist. Hmm... I would suggest that you simply don't know what you are talking about as I've worked on DC-3's that wee originally built in the 1930's and there was no evidence of the de-icer boots, held on by rivnuts, coming loose. Geez, just read various forums about Rivnuts on coming loose and spinning. Or rattling. It's extremely common. This is unrelated to 1930 prop planes. I'm sure if you search "various forums" you can find incidents of every imaginable problem on earth. But what you were warning about was frame failures from amateur Rivnut installations. Do you have examples of that? If so, where are the links? Regarding improperly drilled holes, as Mike Jacubowsky, owner of Chain Reaction Bicycles in Redwood City, CA stated: "Of course, if you're not careful with the rivnut installion (for example, a jagged-edged hole), this too can cause frame failure" but he was referring to thin-wall steel tubes. I suppose that one advantage of aluminum frames is that the tubes have to be thicker to compensate for the lower strength of aluminum. And in most cases, the solution to "if you're not careful" problems is easy: Be careful. -- - Frank Krygowski |
#84
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Bottle holder
On 5/23/2019 7:17 PM, AMuzi wrote:
On 5/23/2019 6:04 PM, John B. Slocomb wrote: On Thu, 23 May 2019 06:56:28 -0700, sms wrote: On 5/23/2019 3:34 AM, John B. Slocomb wrote: snip No, sorry, they didn't teach us about stress concentrations when drilling holes, primarily because any hole is a stress concentration, at least to some extent. And it is illogical to think that one can change "fatigue life" by drilling a hole in some special manner. It is not illogical at all. It is a fact. There is just no way that any course in machining would not teach about how to reduce stress concentration of holes drilled into metal. You might want to ask for a partial refund if that school is still in existence. Well, I can only comment that in my career I drilled holes in just about everything that flew and much of that was specified in either manufacturer's designs and/or specifications from people who had been assigned to design and document a modification and I cannot remember ever seeing any specifications, or directions, or other data intended to tell me how to change "fatigue life" by drilling a hole in some specific manner. So kindly teach me. But before you get off your podium please remember that we are not talking about designing a hole, or placing a hole or any other fuzzy example that you may care to elaborate on. We are discussing the drilling, or boring of a cylindrical passageway through a base material. We just had a spectacular example of the result of improper drilling of holes in steel beams in San Francisco, but these were not drilled by journeyman machinists. I assume that you are referring to the following https://www.nbcbayarea.com/investiga...494862071.html If so than once again you demonstrate that you simply do not know what you are talking about and apparently haven't even bothered to take the time to "read up" on what you are trying to say. The "holes you are talking about aren't drilled, i.e. cylindrical, holes but are , apparently, cut "holes" as described in the article, that you obviously didn't read, which says, "It's not a good structural element, says mechanical engineer Bernard Cuzzillo, referring to rectangular notches clearly cut in the four-inch thick steel at the bottom of the 85-foot long I-beam used to support the terminal deck across Fremont Street. Please note, "RECTANGULAR NOTCHES" not drilled holes. Unless, of course, you anticipate cutting rectangular holes to install the cylindrical revnuts. For God's Sake! They even had a video that clearly showed the cut, angular, holes... and you didn't even bother to watch the movie. Square apertures like a DeHavilland Comet? What could go wrong? My thoughts exactly! I learned about those incidents many, many years ago from a British engineer I used to work with. For Mr. Scharf: A major part of the solution was to change the shape of the holes for the plane's windows. Instead of rectangles, they switched to a shape that was more round. -- - Frank Krygowski |
#85
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Bottle holder
On Thu, 23 May 2019 07:18:52 -0700, sms
wrote: On 5/23/2019 3:45 AM, John B. Slocomb wrote: snip But before you start telling tall tales you should realize that when the hole is drilled it removes not only the center punch indentation itself but considerable (in reference to the size of the center punch dimple) material around the indentation. It is not the issue of the punch indentation remaining, it's the issue of using a spring-loaded punch on thin metal. But you probably wouldn't want to do this on very thin steel either. Errr... A center punch isn't a spring-loaded thing. At least not to those "in the know". See: https://th.misumi-ec.com/vona2/detai...SAAEgK2uvD_BwE https://www.google.com/search?q=cent...nMQsAR6BAgIEAE That is not to say that there isn't such a thing as a spring-loaded center punch but only for amateurs. You see when one uses a conventional center punch, the kind that is hit with a hammer, one can easily vary the force of the blow which is very likely to be very light when center-punching thin sheet metal and much harder when center-punching a huge block of steel. Just one of the myriad things one learns when one is trained in the trade :-) Bottom line is that as Jobst said, "I don't know many riders who believe that drilling a hole in a frame tube is a reasonable concept. I assume the rivnut was securely tightened and painted to prevent motion, corrosion and water intrusion." Yes, I've heard that before - "Jobst said". But Jobst said many things. I remember a discussion where he said that the "quick link" that some makers sell for derailer bicycle chains required a special tool to install or remove one. And even after several people had informed him that they were using them without any special tools, except our fingers, he still insisted that a special tool was necessary. No Sir! Couldn't be done without the special tool! There's no reason to start drilling holes in a perfectly good frame. It sucks that the manufacturer didn't provide the bottle cage mounts at the time the frame was fabricated but there are many better ways of achieving the desired result of adding a bottle holder. There is? Oh Yes! I forget! One buys a special gizmo from a site that pays SMS 2% (was it) for recommending them. -- Cheers, John B. |
#86
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Bottle holder
On Thu, 23 May 2019 09:06:57 -0700 (PDT), Sir Ridesalot
wrote: On Thursday, May 23, 2019 at 10:18:56 AM UTC-4, sms wrote: On 5/23/2019 3:45 AM, John B. Slocomb wrote: snip But before you start telling tall tales you should realize that when the hole is drilled it removes not only the center punch indentation itself but considerable (in reference to the size of the center punch dimple) material around the indentation. It is not the issue of the punch indentation remaining, it's the issue of using a spring-loaded punch on thin metal. But you probably wouldn't want to do this on very thin steel either. Bottom line is that as Jobst said, "I don't know many riders who believe that drilling a hole in a frame tube is a reasonable concept. I assume the rivnut was securely tightened and painted to prevent motion, corrosion and water intrusion." There's no reason to start drilling holes in a perfectly good frame. It sucks that the manufacturer didn't provide the bottle cage mounts at the time the frame was fabricated but there are many better ways of achieving the desired result of adding a bottle holder. BULL****! Rivnuts are one of the simplest most elegant ways of adding mounts for bottle cages there is. Once installed a Rivnut looks just like a factory installation or even a brazed on bottle fitting. I can only assume from your posts that you do NOT know how to drill a simple hole in a bicycle tube nor do you know how easy it is to install a Rivnut in a hole in a bicycle tube. Cheers Ah but the fact that one doesn't know what he/she/it (political correctness) is talking about never precluded a politician from pontificating. (pontificating - Talk in a dogmatic and pompous manner) -- Cheers, John B. |
#87
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Bottle holder
On Thu, 23 May 2019 11:10:50 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote: On 5/23/2019 1:16 AM, Jeff Liebermann wrote: On Tue, 21 May 2019 21:21:12 -0400, Joy Beeson wrote: I'm puzzled by the comment that one could cut oneself on the metal strap. I've been scratched by various bike parts, but the hose clamps have never even thought about it. That would be me. What I did was cut off the loose end of the metal strap flush with the hole clamp body. The down tube paint was protected by a strip of hard rubber. Over a few months, the clamp and rubber strip decided to move. So I tightened the screw on the clamp, which then exposed the end of the metal strap from the clamp body. I had previously rounded the sharp corners, but did not deburr the cut end. The result was a rather messy, but fortunately not very deep, slice in my leg when I performed an unscheduled and graceless dismount. I cut the metal strap shorter to avoid a repeat performance, but did nothing with the exposed hex screw head, which produced a minor gouge in the same place on my leg about a year later. Sorry to jump context, but both of those boo-boos would have been registered in the Portland study of bike commuters, Hoffman et. al., "Bicycle Commuter Injury Prevention," Journal of Trauma, V. 69 No. 5 They took great pains to record _every_ injury, no matter how tiny, and used the results to say we need bike lanes everywhere. IOW: Scratched by your hose clamp? Oh, if only there were a bike lane!!! Back to the topic: I'm a big fan of deburring sharp edges. It takes only a few seconds with a fine grinding wheel or a hand file. Actually if one selects the proper size hose clamp there shouldn't be any "long end sticking out". and they do come in different sizes :-) -- Cheers, John B. |
#88
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Bottle holder
On Thu, 23 May 2019 18:15:15 -0500, AMuzi wrote:
On 5/23/2019 5:29 PM, John B. Slocomb wrote: On Thu, 23 May 2019 07:55:42 -0500, AMuzi wrote: On 5/23/2019 5:45 AM, John B. Slocomb wrote: On Wed, 22 May 2019 20:56:05 -0700, sms wrote: On 5/22/2019 7:59 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote: snip Ok, I yield. A V-block won't work on a finished bicycle frame. I tend to think in terms of what can be done on a drill press or milling machine. As you might suspect, I've never used Rivnuts on an a frame. Water Bottle Mount Drill Jig https://www.steintool.com/portfolio-items/water-bottle-mount-drill-jig/ snip Good idea to use this kind of tool to keep the bit straight and to prevent it from wandering, since you probably don't want to use a center punch on an aluminum frame. Also to achieve proper spacing. You could use this on a finished frame with a right-angle drill. I keep promising myself that I will ignore you but you keep coming up with increasingly stupid statements. Tell us, oh great pundit, why shouldn't one use a center punch on an aluminum frame? But before you start telling tall tales you should realize that when the hole is drilled it removes not only the center punch indentation itself but considerable (in reference to the size of the center punch dimple) material around the indentation. One person wrote: "I found that a standard power drill was difficult to align on the cylindrical steel tube; the bit tended to drift around the tube. Even after I created a small pilot hole for each boss, the bigger drill bit shifted to the side a little. In the end, once the cage was bolted in place, I realized that one of the bosses was misaligned along its cylindrical axis. Fortunately, it wasn’t off by much, but it tweaked the alignment ever so slightly and caused the cage to twist." Of course if you do go the Rivnut route you also want to ensure that you seal everything so moisture can't get in since you won't be painting the frame afterward. Goodness. Here is a thing that is literally riveted (which is why it is called a "riv(et) nut") into the bike frame. You don't think it will be water proof? Like door panels in cars, water always gets in. The key point of design is to vent the piece with drainhole(s). Hmm... luckily you don't build boats :-) No bilge pump on a bicycle. I was referring to your statement "vent the piece with drainhole(s)" :-) -- Cheers, John B. |
#89
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Bottle holder
On Thu, 23 May 2019 18:17:29 -0500, AMuzi wrote:
On 5/23/2019 6:04 PM, John B. Slocomb wrote: On Thu, 23 May 2019 06:56:28 -0700, sms wrote: On 5/23/2019 3:34 AM, John B. Slocomb wrote: snip No, sorry, they didn't teach us about stress concentrations when drilling holes, primarily because any hole is a stress concentration, at least to some extent. And it is illogical to think that one can change "fatigue life" by drilling a hole in some special manner. It is not illogical at all. It is a fact. There is just no way that any course in machining would not teach about how to reduce stress concentration of holes drilled into metal. You might want to ask for a partial refund if that school is still in existence. Well, I can only comment that in my career I drilled holes in just about everything that flew and much of that was specified in either manufacturer's designs and/or specifications from people who had been assigned to design and document a modification and I cannot remember ever seeing any specifications, or directions, or other data intended to tell me how to change "fatigue life" by drilling a hole in some specific manner. So kindly teach me. But before you get off your podium please remember that we are not talking about designing a hole, or placing a hole or any other fuzzy example that you may care to elaborate on. We are discussing the drilling, or boring of a cylindrical passageway through a base material. We just had a spectacular example of the result of improper drilling of holes in steel beams in San Francisco, but these were not drilled by journeyman machinists. I assume that you are referring to the following https://www.nbcbayarea.com/investiga...494862071.html If so than once again you demonstrate that you simply do not know what you are talking about and apparently haven't even bothered to take the time to "read up" on what you are trying to say. The "holes you are talking about aren't drilled, i.e. cylindrical, holes but are , apparently, cut "holes" as described in the article, that you obviously didn't read, which says, "It's not a good structural element, says mechanical engineer Bernard Cuzzillo, referring to rectangular notches clearly cut in the four-inch thick steel at the bottom of the 85-foot long I-beam used to support the terminal deck across Fremont Street. Please note, "RECTANGULAR NOTCHES" not drilled holes. Unless, of course, you anticipate cutting rectangular holes to install the cylindrical revnuts. For God's Sake! They even had a video that clearly showed the cut, angular, holes... and you didn't even bother to watch the movie. Square apertures like a DeHavilland Comet? What could go wrong? I'm working from memory now (an always hazardous undertaking) but I think that the problem with the Comet wasn't so much the window shape so much as the fuselage expanding and contracting when pressurized. Apparently that had never been a problem with previous aircraft. After all, more modern airplanes have essentially square windows :-) -- Cheers, John B. |
#90
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Bottle holder
On Thu, 23 May 2019 16:48:58 -0700, sms
wrote: On 5/23/2019 4:09 PM, John B. Slocomb wrote: On Thu, 23 May 2019 06:58:59 -0700, sms wrote: On 5/23/2019 3:45 AM, John B. Slocomb wrote: snip. Goodness. Here is a thing that is literally riveted (which is why it is called a "riv(et) nut") into the bike frame. You don't think it will be water proof? Rivnuts routinely become loose, even when installed at the factory. Some sort of sealant, or paint, should be used to fill the gaps that will exist. Hmm... I would suggest that you simply don't know what you are talking about as I've worked on DC-3's that wee originally built in the 1930's and there was no evidence of the de-icer boots, held on by rivnuts, coming loose. Geez, just read various forums about Rivnuts on coming loose and spinning. Or rattling. It's extremely common. This is unrelated to 1930 prop planes. And why not? After all an airplane vibrates and shakes far more than a bicycle. One would think if the problem was the rivnut itself, as you seem to think, it would fail under the far greater stresses and strains of the aircraft. Regarding improperly drilled holes, as Mike Jacubowsky, owner of Chain Reaction Bicycles in Redwood City, CA stated: "Of course, if you're not careful with the rivnut installion (for example, a jagged-edged holeMike Jacubowsky), this too can cause frame failure" but he was referring to thin-wall steel tubes. I suppose that one advantage of aluminum frames is that the tubes have to be thicker to compensate for the lower strength of aluminum. Well, if one continues to listen to folks who apparently do sloppy work than one should be prepared for failures. Frankly, I have no knowledge of Mike Jacubowsky but tell us is he a trained metal worker? A trained engineer? Or just someone that is talking. Has he installed a number of rivnuts "a jagged-edged hole" and observed the results? And if he has how can you listen to someone that does such poor work? -- Cheers, John B. |
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