recumbent seating position

Edward Dolan wrote:

I have often wondered if the conventional bicycle saddle used extensively
over many years does not cause bladder and prostate problems. There is no
chance whatever that a recumbent seat would cause these problems, but I not
so sure about saddles. Testicular cancer is another possible casualty of
bike saddles. And possibly hydroceles too. All that pressure in the groin
area caused by sitting on a conventional bike saddle cannot be good for the
human anatomy.

Conventional saddles support the sit bones, not the groin. Or at least
/should/ support the sit bones and not the groin. If the saddle is the
right shape for the rider (and that may be a big "if") then there should
be no pressure on anything that will cause any more problem than sitting
on the ground. This is not to say it will necessarily be /comfortable/
over a long time, but there should be no particular reason for bladder,
testicular or prostate problems. But there's no guarantee that a Brand
X saddle will be the right shape for a particular rider and the wrong
one could well cause all sorts of problems, starting with considerable
discomfort and escalating from there.

Maybe some who claims to be an expert in medical physics
could enlighten us.

Maybe they could, maybe they couldn't. Though I've never claimed to be
an expert in the field I do know what medical physics /is/, so I know
there's no particular link between anatomical problems caused by saddles
and medical physics, so whether some or other expert in the field would
know about saddles you'd have to take on a case by case basis.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

(WivFam) wrote in message ...

Hi im currently designing a recumbent bike for a university project.
The bike is for a parent and child to use on the school run. Does
anyone have any suggestions for safe and practical seating positions
for both the adult and child. The adult will be the sole operater.
Also, what are the main benifits of a recumbant bike compared to an
upright? i know the eye line would be considerably lower on a
recumbent. how does this affect your vunerability on the road?

Again from Hase:

http://www.hase-bikes.com/ens/trets/index.php

I think this would be more stable than the one wheel trailer bikes. It
could be hooked behind _anything_ and locked up at the school.

Hase P.S. , note the photo combining the Pino Peter mentioned, and the Trets:

http://www.hase-bikes.com/ens/trets/index.php?bild=B2

"Peter Clinch" wrote

Conventional saddles support the sit bones, not
the groin. Or at least /should/ support the sit bones
and not the groin. If the saddle is the right shape for
the rider (and that may be a big "if") then there should
be no pressure on anything that will cause any more
problem than sitting on the ground. [...]

There are some studies that suggest bike seat/saddle
design/usage/fit may play a role in certain medical problems.

http://www.emedicine.com/sports/topic12.htm
http://www.bycycleinc.com/pages/article_MTJ.html (see references)

And there's an industry built around "special" seats to address
the 'problems'.

http://www.spongywonder.com/ %^)

Marketing copy on one special bike seat at LBS read something
like "Our design reduces penile numbness...". Made me wonder
what is the desired/acceptable level of that condition... %^P

Maybe some who claims to be an expert in medical physics
could enlighten us.

Maybe they could, maybe they couldn't. Though I've
never claimed to be an expert in the field I do know
what medical physics /is/ [...]

The chances of the lately perennial persona and self-
imagined master baiter of ARBR ever knowing what
it is, or even knowing what IT is are small, but seemingly
significantly larger than the possibility he will contribute
meaningful and/or insightful content or make a logical,
cogent argument about anything.

There's a Monty Python sketch in here, somewhere,
perhaps several. The argument, dead parrot, Piranha
brothers, black knight,... Take your pick.

Jon Meinecke

"Peter Clinch" wrote in message
...
Edward Dolan wrote:

I have often wondered if the conventional bicycle saddle used extensively
over many years does not cause bladder and prostate problems. There is no
chance whatever that a recumbent seat would cause these problems, but I
not so sure about saddles. Testicular cancer is another possible casualty
of bike saddles. And possibly hydroceles too. All that pressure in the
groin area caused by sitting on a conventional bike saddle cannot be good
for the human anatomy.

Conventional saddles support the sit bones, not the groin. Or at least
/should/ support the sit bones and not the groin. If the saddle is the
right shape for the rider (and that may be a big "if") then there should
be no pressure on anything that will cause any more problem than sitting
on the ground. This is not to say it will necessarily be /comfortable/
over a long time, but there should be no particular reason for bladder,
testicular or prostate problems. But there's no guarantee that a Brand X
saddle will be the right shape for a particular rider and the wrong one
could well cause all sorts of problems, starting with considerable
discomfort and escalating from there.

Maybe someone who claims to be an expert in medical physics could
enlighten us.

Maybe they could, maybe they couldn't. Though I've never claimed to be an
expert in the field I do know what medical physics /is/, so I know there's
no particular link between anatomical problems caused by saddles and
medical physics, so whether some or other expert in the field would know
about saddles you'd have to take on a case by case basis.

Still, an awful lot of cyclists seem to have problems with organs and
tissues located in the groin area, including Lance Armstrong who developed
testicular cancer which almost killed him. Your bit about the sit bones is
right on, but the fact is that most of us are not on our sit bones to the
exclusion of not being on anything else. Very many cyclists complain of
penile numbness, so that right there tells you they are doing something
wrong. Do you think kids know about that sit bone business?

We can't be sure that there is no connection between bike saddles and
medical problems in the groin area, despite what this particular expert in
medical physics has to say about it.

--
Regards,

Ed Dolan - Minnesota

"Jon Meinecke" wrote in message
news:1098365700.KbG/nubnDa8LqatGdHhGNw@teranews...
"Peter Clinch" wrote

Conventional saddles support the sit bones, not
the groin. Or at least /should/ support the sit bones
and not the groin. If the saddle is the right shape for
the rider (and that may be a big "if") then there should
be no pressure on anything that will cause any more
problem than sitting on the ground. [...]

There are some studies that suggest bike seat/saddle
design/usage/fit may play a role in certain medical problems.

http://www.emedicine.com/sports/topic12.htm
http://www.bycycleinc.com/pages/article_MTJ.html (see references)

And there's an industry built around "special" seats to address
the 'problems'.

http://www.spongywonder.com/ %^)

Marketing copy on one special bike seat at LBS read something
like "Our design reduces penile numbness...". Made me wonder
what is the desired/acceptable level of that condition... %^P

Maybe some who claims to be an expert in medical physics
could enlighten us.

Maybe they could, maybe they couldn't. Though I've
never claimed to be an expert in the field I do know
what medical physics /is/ [...]

The chances of the lately perennial persona and self-
imagined master baiter of ARBR ever knowing what
it is, or even knowing what IT is are small, but seemingly
significantly larger than the possibility he will contribute
meaningful and/or insightful content or make a logical,
cogent argument about anything.

I am determined never to look up what medical physics is about. Instead, it
is my aim to goad this donkey from Scotland to tell us what medical physics
is. Either that or I will continue to poke fun at him and his occupation
until hell freezes over. He has made his occupation an issue by telling us
what it is that he does with his every signature. Like Kerry, he never knows
when to shut up about himself.

Meinecke is mostly just jealous of me. I don't blame him though as there is
a lot here to be jealous of. He would like to be able to engender posts like
I do, but it is beyond him. You have to have a broad education to do what I
do. Narrow minded skunks like him can only do one thing and that is to stay
on topic, even if the topic is boring enough to drive a numskull out of his
skull. But it takes a special skill too to be that kind of boring. But a
dullard like him I never was.

There's a Monty Python sketch in here, somewhere,
perhaps several. The argument, dead parrot, Piranha
brothers, black knight,... Take your pick.

Only a screw ball like Meinecke would watch something so stupid as Monty
Python. That is for the English, who as all the world knows have a very
weird sense of humor. Hey, you English ... move over - here is another
American nut case for you! But his name looks German, so he may not really
fit in all that well.

--
Regards,

Ed Dolan - Minnesota

Edward Dolan wrote:

Still, an awful lot of cyclists seem to have problems with organs and
tissues located in the groin area, including Lance Armstrong who developed
testicular cancer which almost killed him. Your bit about the sit bones is
right on, but the fact is that most of us are not on our sit bones to the
exclusion of not being on anything else. Very many cyclists complain of
penile numbness, so that right there tells you they are doing something
wrong. Do you think kids know about that sit bone business?

I doubt it in a large number of cases, and I also think that the fact
that a lot of people are labouring under the misapprehension that a $70
bike from Walmart will somehow represent the acme of comfort and
technical sophistication won't help either, as said items will probably
have appalling saddles, albeit with "Gel Comfort" written on them to
show how good they must be.

If it's an intrinsic problem we would find a hugely greater percentage
of these problems in nations with a cycling culture such as NL and
Denmark. I'm not aware of any such disproportionate incidence rate and
in the absence of any such obvious trends it looks like an awareness
problem that's best treated by education to remove ignorance.

We can't be sure that there is no connection between bike saddles and
medical problems in the groin area, despite what this particular expert in
medical physics has to say about it.

What expert in medical physics? I've never claimed to be any such
thing, but as I've already pointed out medical physics is not especially
concerned with anatomy. This seems to be an awareness problem for you,
that would be best treated by education to remove ignorance.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

"Jon Meinecke" wrote in message
news:1098365700.KbG/nubnDa8LqatGdHhGNw@teranews...
"Peter Clinch" wrote

Conventional saddles support the sit bones, not
the groin. Or at least /should/ support the sit bones
and not the groin. If the saddle is the right shape for
the rider (and that may be a big "if") then there should
be no pressure on anything that will cause any more
problem than sitting on the ground. [...]

There are some studies that suggest bike seat/saddle
design/usage/fit may play a role in certain medical problems.

http://www.emedicine.com/sports/topic12.htm
http://www.bycycleinc.com/pages/article_MTJ.html (see references)

And there's an industry built around "special" seats to address
the 'problems'.

http://www.spongywonder.com/ %^)

Marketing copy on one special bike seat at LBS read something
like "Our design reduces penile numbness...". Made me wonder
what is the desired/acceptable level of that condition... %^P

Everyone on the group who thinks bike saddles have nothing to do with
medical problems in the groin area should carefully read the above articles.

I found this to be particularly interesting:

"Bicycle seat design (eg, shape) may be the major extrinsic factor for the
development of bicycle seat neuropathy. Results of computer modelling
reported by Spears et al in 2003 have shown that wider bicycle seats that
support the ischial tuberosities decrease pressure on the perineal area."
[see first link above for attribution]

Hells Bells! I have been saying that from day one, over 25 years ago. Those
narrow racing saddles are murder. I knew from the beginning that you had to
have a wider platform in the rear of the saddle for those sit bones to rest
on. Damn racers are all crazy anyway! Screw them!

--
Regards,

Ed Dolan - Minnesota

"Peter Clinch" wrote in message
...
Edward Dolan wrote:

Still, an awful lot of cyclists seem to have problems with organs and
tissues located in the groin area, including Lance Armstrong who
developed testicular cancer which almost killed him. Your bit about the
sit bones is right on, but the fact is that most of us are not on our sit
bones to the exclusion of not being on anything else. Very many cyclists
complain of penile numbness, so that right there tells you they are doing
something wrong. Do you think kids know about that sit bone business?

I doubt it in a large number of cases, and I also think that the fact that
a lot of people are labouring under the misapprehension that a $70 bike
from Walmart will somehow represent the acme of comfort and technical
sophistication won't help either, as said items will probably have
appalling saddles, albeit with "Gel Comfort" written on them to show how
good they must be.

Open any bike catalog and you will see literally several pages devoted to
bike saddles. Those Wal-Mart bikes with their comfort saddles on them are an
honest attempt to address a problem that you claim hardly exists. The only
numskulls in this scenario are the racers with their narrow racing style
saddles on their $2000. bikes.

If it's an intrinsic problem we would find a hugely greater percentage of
these problems in nations with a cycling culture such as NL and Denmark.
I'm not aware of any such disproportionate incidence rate and in the
absence of any such obvious trends it looks like an awareness problem
that's best treated by education to remove ignorance.

Those Europeans who cycle a lot are most likely just commuting short
distances and not putting on many miles at all. A lot of this stuff only
kicks in on all day week long types of rides.

The way to solve a problem is by designing out what is causing the problem
in the first place, not by so-called education. I blame the designers of
bike saddles for the discomfort and medical problems they cause, not the end
user.

We can't be sure that there is no connection between bike saddles and
medical problems in the groin area, despite what this particular expert
in medical physics has to say about it.

What expert in medical physics? I've never claimed to be any such thing,
but as I've already pointed out medical physics is not especially
concerned with anatomy. This seems to be an awareness problem for you,
that would be best treated by education to remove ignorance.

I am waiting for you to explain your mysterious occupation. Is it even a
profession or is it like calling a janitor a sanitation engineer? Perhaps
you sweep the corridors in the hospital and empty the trash containers?

While education is important, it is not the answer to most of the problems
that plague human kind. The eternal question is how to make people better,
not how to make them smarter. I am sure you do not have a clue.

--
Regards,

Ed Dolan - Minnesota

It appears there are many different attitudes to the problems
encountered by recumbent cycle users. Clearly, therefore, design is
still to be done. To iron out these problems with safety and powering
etc.

Perhaps, like Dyson himself concluded, there is a much more efficient
way of doing a job machines have been doing for years. Vacuum cleaners
used bags, this was the norm, and was never questioned. Look how wrong
we were! My point being, have we taken the recubent vehicle as far as
we ever can?! Or are we just at a happy medium, like we were with our
vacuum cleaners!

I therefore think it is a good idea to look at the possibilities of
improving safety, powering, weather protection and any other problems
your research uncovers! (Maybe it will replace the car! Perhaps you
won't, but who are we to judge!)

So, lets all try and help out, and give andy our own experiences of
using these vehicles. As who better to ask about making improvements
than the people who use the vehicles!

Good Luck with your research and design.