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A March on Washington... on Bicycle?



 
 
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  #71  
Old November 16th 08, 08:08 PM posted to alt.rec.bicycles.recumbent,rec.bicycles.misc,rec.bicycles.soc,rec.bicycles.rides,uk.rec.cycling
Tom Keats
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Posts: 3,193
Default I am convinced bicycling is not safe

In article ,
writes:
On Nov 14, 8:00 pm, (Tom Keats) wrote:

But my concern is about incipient new ridership who
may be affected to any degree. The very subject
line of this thread was obviously designed to
dissuade people who may be considering bicycling.
Then he throws in unsubstantiated, unqualified,
unquantified, ostensibly hearsay statements like:
"Accident statistics on bicycling are horrific per
mile traveled."

Great way to promote bicycling, eh?

...

Well horrific is a subjective term but it is true that bicycling has
per-mile injury rates far higher than driving.


Some would suggest per-hour injury rates are more telling than
per-mile rates. I tend to agree.

We shouldn't be too
surprised by that. Most of the injuries to bicyclists (80%) are
caused by falling off, wiping out, things motorists don't have to
worry about. And then, when a car and bike smash together, only the
bicyclist gets hurt. Bicycling may be a little more deadly than
driving but neither is remotely likely to result in fatality.


It's up to us individuals to mitigate potential traffic
dangers around us; to put it in simplistic terms: to
manufacture our own safety. We are well armed to do so,
by the contributions of so many riders (like yourself) who
have been there & done that, learned from their experiences,
and passed along what they've learned to any fellow riders
who might be interested in learning stuff the easier way
instead of the hard way.

Unfortunately, it seems a lot of people don't want to learn
anything from anybody. Everybody's a f***in' expert.

A lot of people want things dumbed down for them so they don't
have to think about stuff, and that's what they expect bike
lanes to do for them. Play bumper-cars in real traffic, and
feel oh-so-safe.

And y'know what? I /like/ bike lanes when they're properly
implemented. I have nothing against bike lanes per se at all.

But I /do/ take issue with the notion that bike lanes are some
sort of sanctuary in which riders can ignorantly squirrel
around, without having to understand the social ramifications
of being part of traffic, and relating to/with our mobile,
vehicular neighbours. 'Cuz when you think about it, traffic
is a dynamic, mobile neighbourhood.

I think you'll agree with me when I suggest that being
among traffic (and surviving it) is more a matter of
smartening up than dumbing down.

It's not about bike lanes, it's about attitude.

A while back, Jobst Brandt took me to task because, like
you, I dared suggest bicycles are a superior mode of
transportation. The word "elitist" was evoked. I guess
he misinterpreted my statements as being anti-motorist or
driver-hating. Truth is, I get along with my neighbours
quite well.

Yeah. Traffic is a neighbourhood. And not just
metaphorically -- it really /is/ a neighbourhood.

You can't dumb down a neighbourhood -- too much
soap opera drama goin' on.


cheers,
Tom

--
Nothing is safe from me.
I'm really at:
tkeats curlicue vcn dot bc dot ca
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  #72  
Old November 17th 08, 12:34 AM posted to alt.rec.bicycles.recumbent,rec.bicycles.misc,rec.bicycles.soc,rec.bicycles.rides,uk.rec.cycling
[email protected]
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Default I am convinced bicycling is not safe

On Nov 16, 1:08 pm, (Tom Keats) wrote:

You can't dumb down a neighbourhood -- too much
soap opera drama goin' on.


I like that interpretation.

With that in mind I'm a huge fan of these stylish big double chevron
sharrows that are being installed in several cities. Encourage these
neighbors to really get to know each other.
  #73  
Old November 17th 08, 04:34 AM posted to alt.rec.bicycles.recumbent,rec.bicycles.misc,rec.bicycles.soc,rec.bicycles.rides,uk.rec.cycling
Tom Keats
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Posts: 3,193
Default I am convinced bicycling is not safe

In article ,
writes:
On Nov 16, 1:08 pm, (Tom Keats) wrote:

You can't dumb down a neighbourhood -- too much
soap opera drama goin' on.


I like that interpretation.

With that in mind I'm a huge fan of these stylish big double chevron
sharrows that are being installed in several cities. Encourage these
neighbors to really get to know each other.


Yeah, that sort of works. Except here in Vancouver
there are very many traffic-engineering attempts to
accomodate non-motorized traffic, and sometimes they
conflict with each other. For example, we recently had
sharrows installed along our Main Street. But at the
same time, we have these pedestrian's sidewalk bulges
at intersections. So from a rider's POV you're just
riding along in a straight line in the safe zone, and
suddenly the curb juts out at you, and you're squeezed
between the motorized traffic and the curb.

That's why I cry out for intelligent & thought-out
implementation instead of traffic engineers just
slap-dashing stuff down on the streets, dusting their
hands off, and saying: "There, that oughta keep 'em
happy."

Anyway, Commander CarmenMiranda'sHat says traffic is a
jungle. I say it's a neighbourhood. I shall leave it
to the readership to decide upon their own approaches.


cheers,
Tom

--
Nothing is safe from me.
I'm really at: tkeats curlicue vcn dot bc dot ca
  #74  
Old November 17th 08, 04:51 AM posted to alt.rec.bicycles.recumbent,rec.bicycles.misc,rec.bicycles.soc
Tom Keats
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Posts: 3,193
Default I am convinced bicycling is not safe

In article ,
Harry Brogan writes:
On Sat, 15 Nov 2008 02:28:46 -0600, "Edward Dolan"
wrote:


wrote in message
...
On Nov 14, 8:00 pm, (Tom Keats) wrote:

But my concern is about incipient new ridership who
may be affected to any degree. The very subject
line of this thread was obviously designed to
dissuade people who may be considering bicycling.
Then he throws in unsubstantiated, unqualified,
unquantified, ostensibly hearsay statements like:
"Accident statistics on bicycling are horrific per
mile traveled."

Great way to promote bicycling, eh?
...

Well horrific is a subjective term but it is true that bicycling has
per-mile injury rates far higher than driving. We shouldn't be too
surprised by that. Most of the injuries to bicyclists (80%) are
caused by falling off, wiping out, things motorists don't have to
worry about. And then, when a car and bike smash together, only the
bicyclist gets hurt. Bicycling may be a little more deadly than
driving but neither is remotely likely to result in fatality.
Motorcyclists have far worse fatality rates than anyone but better
injury rates than bicyclists. Again it is easy to predict this stuff
that is found in the numbers.

Bicycling has benefits that can't be gained any other way. That's the
difference that we need to get across to beginners or potential new
riders, and what is often forgotten when people start talking about
the danger of riding. The benefits dwarf the dangers.

People who are safety obsessed about bicycling are probably barking up
the wrong tree. There is no safety in traffic. The only cure is to not
leave the house. People who are too paranoid to ride a bike on the
street get in a car and go 80mph on the highway without a second
thought. That's simply irrational behavior. But bicycling has its
dangers and they should be acknowledged. Here in particular, the truth
shall set us free. The truth is that bicycling is the superior mode,
providing superior health benefits and other benefits as well as
superlatively efficient transportation, despite a relatively high
injury rate.

And I think it's okay to acknowledge that, because of the unique
challenges of riding a bike, bicycling may not be for everybody. Like
el Banana for instance.


Many residential streets are safe for cycling but some aren't. Same goes for
roads both rural and urban. High speed highways with no shoulders are never
safe for cyclists. Bike lanes are not as safe as some think. Bike paths are
the safest provided they do not become too crowded. Ergo, we should all work
for bike paths as much as possible.

Regards,

Ed Dolan the Great - Minnesota
aka
Saint Edward the Great - Order of the Perpetual Sorrows - Minnesota




I have to agree with Ed on this. Working towards safer and better
bike paths is the way to go. All to often we hear about the "I
didn't see them" excuse.


Bike paths generally don't get you to the butcher shop,
bakery, cheese shop, supermarket, hardware store,
department store, library, community centre or job site.

At best they lead to pretty places where you can pick
berries when in season, and snap some soon-to-be-forgotten
pix with a disposable camera.

Bike paths divert customers away from commerce.


cheers,
Tom

--
Nothing is safe from me.
I'm really at:
tkeats curlicue vcn dot bc dot ca
  #76  
Old November 17th 08, 08:48 AM posted to alt.rec.bicycles.recumbent,rec.bicycles.misc,rec.bicycles.soc
Peter Clinch
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Posts: 4,852
Default I am convinced bicycling is not safe

Tom Keats wrote:

Bike paths generally don't get you to the butcher shop,
bakery, cheese shop, supermarket, hardware store,
department store, library, community centre or job site.

At best they lead to pretty places where you can pick
berries when in season, and snap some soon-to-be-forgotten
pix with a disposable camera.

Bike paths divert customers away from commerce.


That's implementation dependent. There's no particular problem doing
one's shopping via bike path in NL, for example.

So this highlights not a basic problem with bike paths, but with bike
paths that aren't implemented by people who understand their use. No
shortage of those around here either, but it isn't a fundamental failing
that is 100% bound to afflict all examples.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/
  #77  
Old November 17th 08, 03:39 PM posted to alt.rec.bicycles.recumbent,rec.bicycles.misc,rec.bicycles.soc
Frank Krygowski[_2_]
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Posts: 7,511
Default I am convinced bicycling is not safe

On Nov 17, 3:48*am, Peter Clinch wrote:
Tom Keats wrote:
Bike paths generally don't get you to the butcher shop,
bakery, cheese shop, supermarket, hardware store,
department store, library, community centre or job site.


At best they lead to pretty places where you can pick
berries when in season, and snap some soon-to-be-forgotten
pix with a disposable camera.


Bike paths divert customers away from commerce.


That's implementation dependent. *There's no particular problem doing
one's shopping via bike path in NL, for example.

So this highlights not a basic problem with bike paths, but with bike
paths that aren't implemented by people who understand their use. *No
shortage of those around here either, but it isn't a fundamental failing
that is 100% bound to afflict all examples.


In America, I'd guess that basic problem afflicts well over 90% of
bike paths. Almost all are linear parks with negligible
transportation benefit, and nothing will change that.

Within thirty miles of my house, I know of only one multi-use (or
"bike") path that is mostly used as a transportation link. It's only
a quarter mile long, and gets cyclists and peds through a dead end for
cars, and into the village center. Contrast that with the much-
trumpeted rail-trail, just completed, that runs through over 100 miles
of corn fields, paralleling beautiful, peaceful country roads!

Except for rare exceptions, you can't fit many utilitarian bike paths
into our urban or suburban landscape. The land is already taken up.
And the odds will always be minuscule that any given cyclist will find
a bike path from his home to any particular destination.

Yes, I know a dozen bike path fans will mentally object, saying "Well,
I ride my bike path to XYZ!" But unless you're a statistical miracle,
almost all the practical places to which you want to ride are off the
bike path, and so is your home. And it's always going to be that way.

- Frank Krygowski
  #78  
Old November 17th 08, 06:32 PM posted to alt.rec.bicycles.recumbent,rec.bicycles.misc,rec.bicycles.soc,rec.bicycles.rides,uk.rec.cycling
KingOfTheApes
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Posts: 1,468
Default I am convinced bicycling is not safe

On Nov 15, 7:23*pm, "Edward Dolan" wrote:
"ComandanteBanana" wrote in message

...
[...]

The Internet was created so smart and civilized behavior prevailed in
the jungle. But there still some alpha male apes that relapse to
primitive behavior. Usually cured with a banana.


There is no animal so disgusting, so vile that it deserves comparison to
you, for even the lowest, dirtiest, most parasitic member of the animal
kingdom fills an ecological niche. You fill no niche.
To call you a parasite would be injurious to the thousands of honest
parasitic species. You are worse than vermin, for vermin does not pretend
to be what it is not. You are truly human garbage.

****ing Regards,

Ed Dolan the Great - Minnesota
aka
Saint Edward the Great - Order of the Perpetual Sorrows - Minnesota


You know, Big Ed (notice you are not Dr. Evil anymore) the revolution
is...


Well, the revolution is hiring people...

-WILLING TO FORGO PAYMENT

-WILLING TO SAY THE TRUTH

-WILLING TO DIE IN THE LINE OF DUTY (ride a bike)

-WILLING TO REMEMBER THE NAME OF THE REVOLUTION...

The last one was kind of easy, wasn't it?


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Taming the Money Making Beast is a job for every lion tamer. The art
is in not letting yourself become lunch.

http://www.simonfieldhouse.com/LionT...JPEG-large.jpg


  #79  
Old November 17th 08, 06:38 PM posted to alt.rec.bicycles.recumbent,rec.bicycles.misc,rec.bicycles.soc,rec.bicycles.rides,uk.rec.cycling
KingOfTheApes
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Posts: 1,468
Default raise the money for bike facilities from the reckless drivers

On Nov 15, 10:49 pm, Harry Brogan wrote:

Ed Dolan the Great - Minnesota


I have to agree with Ed on this. Working towards safer and better
bike paths is the way to go. All to often we hear about the "I
didn't see them" excuse.

The person that hit me a couple of years ago tried to use that
excuse....at first....but then changed her story to the talking on the
cell phone excuse. Those need to be banned while you are driving the
car. There can't be a call that's so important that you can't pull
over to take it.
__o | Every time I see an adult on a bicycle....
_`\(,_ | I no longer despair for the human race.
(_)/ (_) | ---H.G. Wells---- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -


Well, Dr. Evil, wasn't the originator of that clever remark. He stole
it from me...

This is what I mean, WE NEED BIKE LANES, BIKE PATHS, AND TAME TRAFFIC
WHERE APPLICABLE.

We can even raise the money for bike facilities from the reckless
drivers.
  #80  
Old November 17th 08, 07:08 PM posted to alt.rec.bicycles.recumbent,rec.bicycles.misc,rec.bicycles.soc,rec.bicycles.rides,uk.rec.cycling
KingOfTheApes
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Posts: 1,468
Default I am convinced bicycling is not safe

On Nov 16, 5:05 am, Peter Clinch wrote:
Harry Brogan wrote:
I have to agree with Ed on this. Working towards safer and better
bike paths is the way to go.


The usual problem with bike paths is rights of way conflicts where
they inevitably meet roads. That creates junctions, and junctions
are where most accidents happen.
Go and spend some time in NL and you find that a fietspad, even as
well implemented as in the NL, does *not* isolate you from traffic.
However, in NL you find that the typical driver is a great deal
more aware of bicycles than pretty much anywhere else you may have
cycled, and I suspect that that is rather more to do with the low
accident rates. It is actually the case that plenty of roads in NL
don't have a fietspad alongside and, especially in older towns and
villages, you may well be sharing the roads with cars. That these
areas don't appear to be accident black spots further suggests that
it's the awareness of many Dutch drivers that makes the biggest
difference.

All to often we hear about the "I didn't see them" excuse.


And you hear that most at junctions, and with bike paths you've
still got junctions.

The person that hit me a couple of years ago tried to use that
excuse....at first....but then changed her story to the talking on the
cell phone excuse. Those need to be banned while you are driving the
car. There can't be a call that's so important that you can't pull
over to take it.


It's illegal to use a mobile 'phone (hands-free excepted, not
because it's safe but it's vitually impossible to detect and
enforce sensibly) in the UK, and I suspect quite a few other places
too. But you still see numpties on their 'phones, and they'll
still be using them as they go past the junctions of bike tracks
and roads that you'll have to use to negotiate a bike path network.

Not that bike tracks don't have their place: there are several I
use simply because they're plain /nicer/ to use, and that's reason
enough, but that's not the same as making me safer.

As for the thesis "bicycling is not safe", well, of course it
isn't. People get killed falling over stepping in and out of the
bath, so if taking a bath isn't safe why do you expect cycling to
be? Check out the fatlities in cars, no shortage, so in absolute
terms that's certainly not safe either.
The trick is whether it is safe /enough/. Consult the actual
accident statistics for your own area to find out who suffers how
much in different places. At least in the UK cycling is actually
remarkably safe when you look at the actual figures, even though
the public perception is it's terribly dangerous. Moral of that
one is you can't trust superficial perceptions.
From a UK perspective (and it's not necessarily the same
eveywhere, granted)http://www.bmj.com/cgi/content/full/321/7276/1582gives a more
balanced view than most people's perceptions IMHO.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/


Well, I knew the UK was a smarter place, not only because they have
tamed traffic to a higher degree, but also because they don't have a
Republican party.

Anyway, this assessment about Holland seems to support my idea TRAFFIC
TAMING, BIKE ROUTES AND BIKE LANES. Thank you!
Regards,

Ed Dolan the Great - Minnesota
aka
Saint Edward the Great - Order of the Perpetual Sorrows - Minnesota


 




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