#71
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Flat repair
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#72
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Flat repair
On Mon, 13 Aug 2018 17:50:44 -0700, sms
wrote: Performance-Tubeless tires are lower performance. "Lower performnce" in what way? Everything I have read to date suggestss that tubeless bike tires have lower rolling resistance than tubed tires (although much less difference with latex tubes than butyl tubes), e.g.: MTB: https://www.bicyclerollingresistance...ex-butyl-tubes But murkier with 700C: https://www.bicyclerollingresistance...eless-clincher |
#73
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Flat repair
On Monday, August 13, 2018 at 5:25:28 PM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
On Monday, August 13, 2018 at 3:49:02 PM UTC-7, wrote: On Monday, August 13, 2018 at 3:03:25 PM UTC-7, news18 wrote: On 14/08/18 04:15, wrote: Can you people explain to me why you would buy innertubes, flat repair kits and various methods of inflating flatted tires when you don't have to flat a tire and only need to inflate it if you happen to get a large enough hole in it release sufficient air to soften the tire before it seals again? 1. Lock-in. For the ignorant, and you have to be ignorant not to have noticed how manufacturers try to lock customers into their product by making it incompatible with products from other manufacturers. Heck, they even make their new products incompatible with their own products. 2. Performance. I always laugh at claims of superior performance when they relie on results from very narrow test conditions. 3. Reliability; tubeless setup fails once. Tube and tyre need to fail twice to have you walking. 1. Exactly HOW are manufacturers trying to "lock us in" to their product when virtually every new wheels and every new tire tubeless compatible? 2. If you have ever run tests on mechanical components in your life than you know that it is impossible to test for every condition. What we have seen is testing by at least a half dozen source from tire manufacturers to Cycling News testing the rolling resistance of narrow to wide tires and they all report the same outcome - the rougher the roads the less rolling resistance wider tires at lower pressures have compared to narrower higher pressure tires. That is not "very narrow test conditions". The last video showed rolling resistance of the three different TYPES of tires. This was not meant to give precise measurements but relative differences. And as should come as not surprise to anyone capable of engineering, the tire that has the least intercomponent friction the less the relative rolling resistance. Again, these do nothing more than burst myths that have been surrounding bicycle tires for a long time. Anyone that went from the older 18 mm tires at 160 psi to 23 mm tires at 110 psi could and did report this. 3. Tubeless tires cannot fail from small goathead thorns or wires left on the road by wearing through steel belted tires that give you a tube tire flat. A dramatic cut in the tire will destroy them BOTH equally. Obviously you like carrying around two tubes, a patch kit, two CO2 cartridges and a filler and a mini-pump because it seems romantic to you. You are perfectly free to feel that the same technology used on every other rubber tired vehicle in the world is not suited to bicycles but if you're going to argue, don't use inadequate responses like "lock you in to their products" or "testing procedures are only for very narrow test conditions." when this isn't the case at all. It is far easier to test bicycle tire performance than those of a motorcycles. What do you do if a tubeless tire goes belly-up on a ride? Nothing is indestructible. I would still carry a tube and a pump and/or a CO2 cartridge even if I was on tubeless. -- Jay Beattie. How does a tubeless tire go "belly up" on a ride under different conditions than it would a tube tire? Explain to us all what you do if you get a massive cut or a broken cord on your tube tire? I really have a hard time dealing with people that don't think out what they are responding with. |
#75
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Flat repair
On Monday, August 13, 2018 at 8:35:56 PM UTC-7, Tim McNamara wrote:
On Mon, 13 Aug 2018 15:48:59 -0700 (PDT), wrote: Obviously you like carrying around two tubes, a patch kit, two CO2 cartridges and a filler and a mini-pump because it seems romantic to you. Good grief, who carries all that crap? I carry one spare tube, a patch kit, tire lever and my trusty Silca Impero with Campy head. With tubeless you need to carry a spare tube, inflation device of some sort... or a cell phone and have a sympathetic spouse for when the tire can't be simply remounted, the seal fails and can't be resealed, etc. You are perfectly free to feel that the same technology used on every other rubber tired vehicle in the world is not suited to bicycles... Might not be. Car and truck tires, for example, are much larger, much stiffer, have a much heavier bead, much thicker construction and operate at much lower air pressures than road bike tires do. Modern motorcycles have converted to tubeless but again the tires are larger, thicker, more heavily built, larger deeper bead, etc∆. None of the foregoing are designed to be taken off the rim on the road, unlike all bike tires. MTB tires at say 30-40 PSI seem to be better candidates than 700 x 25 tires at 115 psi for the tubeless approach *as it currently stands.* I also think the product design will improve and that the weaknesses of tubeless bicycle tires (requiring a sealant to overcome the inherent inadequacy of the tire bead-rim interface) will be obviated. But it will take stepping away from the legacy dimensions of the tire-rim interface to one that may not be removable with home equipment. So did we in the SF bay area until California stopped maintaining the roads.. I'm about to ride up to a group ride and I will find broken glass on the way that has been there for months. |
#76
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Flat repair
On Tuesday, August 14, 2018 at 7:10:28 AM UTC-7, wrote:
On Monday, August 13, 2018 at 5:25:28 PM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote: On Monday, August 13, 2018 at 3:49:02 PM UTC-7, wrote: On Monday, August 13, 2018 at 3:03:25 PM UTC-7, news18 wrote: On 14/08/18 04:15, wrote: Can you people explain to me why you would buy innertubes, flat repair kits and various methods of inflating flatted tires when you don't have to flat a tire and only need to inflate it if you happen to get a large enough hole in it release sufficient air to soften the tire before it seals again? 1. Lock-in. For the ignorant, and you have to be ignorant not to have noticed how manufacturers try to lock customers into their product by making it incompatible with products from other manufacturers. Heck, they even make their new products incompatible with their own products. 2. Performance. I always laugh at claims of superior performance when they relie on results from very narrow test conditions. 3. Reliability; tubeless setup fails once. Tube and tyre need to fail twice to have you walking. 1. Exactly HOW are manufacturers trying to "lock us in" to their product when virtually every new wheels and every new tire tubeless compatible? 2. If you have ever run tests on mechanical components in your life than you know that it is impossible to test for every condition. What we have seen is testing by at least a half dozen source from tire manufacturers to Cycling News testing the rolling resistance of narrow to wide tires and they all report the same outcome - the rougher the roads the less rolling resistance wider tires at lower pressures have compared to narrower higher pressure tires. That is not "very narrow test conditions". The last video showed rolling resistance of the three different TYPES of tires. This was not meant to give precise measurements but relative differences. And as should come as not surprise to anyone capable of engineering, the tire that has the least intercomponent friction the less the relative rolling resistance. Again, these do nothing more than burst myths that have been surrounding bicycle tires for a long time. Anyone that went from the older 18 mm tires at 160 psi to 23 mm tires at 110 psi could and did report this. 3. Tubeless tires cannot fail from small goathead thorns or wires left on the road by wearing through steel belted tires that give you a tube tire flat. A dramatic cut in the tire will destroy them BOTH equally. Obviously you like carrying around two tubes, a patch kit, two CO2 cartridges and a filler and a mini-pump because it seems romantic to you. You are perfectly free to feel that the same technology used on every other rubber tired vehicle in the world is not suited to bicycles but if you're going to argue, don't use inadequate responses like "lock you in to their products" or "testing procedures are only for very narrow test conditions." when this isn't the case at all. It is far easier to test bicycle tire performance than those of a motorcycles. What do you do if a tubeless tire goes belly-up on a ride? Nothing is indestructible. I would still carry a tube and a pump and/or a CO2 cartridge even if I was on tubeless. -- Jay Beattie. How does a tubeless tire go "belly up" on a ride under different conditions than it would a tube tire? Explain to us all what you do if you get a massive cut or a broken cord on your tube tire? I really have a hard time dealing with people that don't think out what they are responding with. I boot casings with a dollar bill or a Cliff bar wrapper, held in place by an inner tube. What's the fix on a tubeless tire when you cut a casing or get a hole that won't self-seal? -- Jay Beattie. |
#77
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Flat repair
On 8/14/2018 11:07 AM, jbeattie wrote:
On Tuesday, August 14, 2018 at 7:10:28 AM UTC-7, wrote: On Monday, August 13, 2018 at 5:25:28 PM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote: On Monday, August 13, 2018 at 3:49:02 PM UTC-7, wrote: On Monday, August 13, 2018 at 3:03:25 PM UTC-7, news18 wrote: On 14/08/18 04:15, wrote: Can you people explain to me why you would buy innertubes, flat repair kits and various methods of inflating flatted tires when you don't have to flat a tire and only need to inflate it if you happen to get a large enough hole in it release sufficient air to soften the tire before it seals again? 1. Lock-in. For the ignorant, and you have to be ignorant not to have noticed how manufacturers try to lock customers into their product by making it incompatible with products from other manufacturers. Heck, they even make their new products incompatible with their own products. 2. Performance. I always laugh at claims of superior performance when they relie on results from very narrow test conditions. 3. Reliability; tubeless setup fails once. Tube and tyre need to fail twice to have you walking. 1. Exactly HOW are manufacturers trying to "lock us in" to their product when virtually every new wheels and every new tire tubeless compatible? 2. If you have ever run tests on mechanical components in your life than you know that it is impossible to test for every condition. What we have seen is testing by at least a half dozen source from tire manufacturers to Cycling News testing the rolling resistance of narrow to wide tires and they all report the same outcome - the rougher the roads the less rolling resistance wider tires at lower pressures have compared to narrower higher pressure tires. That is not "very narrow test conditions". The last video showed rolling resistance of the three different TYPES of tires. This was not meant to give precise measurements but relative differences. And as should come as not surprise to anyone capable of engineering, the tire that has the least intercomponent friction the less the relative rolling resistance. Again, these do nothing more than burst myths that have been surrounding bicycle tires for a long time. Anyone that went from the older 18 mm tires at 160 psi to 23 mm tires at 110 psi could and did report this. 3. Tubeless tires cannot fail from small goathead thorns or wires left on the road by wearing through steel belted tires that give you a tube tire flat. A dramatic cut in the tire will destroy them BOTH equally. Obviously you like carrying around two tubes, a patch kit, two CO2 cartridges and a filler and a mini-pump because it seems romantic to you. You are perfectly free to feel that the same technology used on every other rubber tired vehicle in the world is not suited to bicycles but if you're going to argue, don't use inadequate responses like "lock you in to their products" or "testing procedures are only for very narrow test conditions." when this isn't the case at all. It is far easier to test bicycle tire performance than those of a motorcycles. What do you do if a tubeless tire goes belly-up on a ride? Nothing is indestructible. I would still carry a tube and a pump and/or a CO2 cartridge even if I was on tubeless. -- Jay Beattie. How does a tubeless tire go "belly up" on a ride under different conditions than it would a tube tire? Explain to us all what you do if you get a massive cut or a broken cord on your tube tire? I really have a hard time dealing with people that don't think out what they are responding with. I boot casings with a dollar bill or a Cliff bar wrapper, held in place by an inner tube. What's the fix on a tubeless tire when you cut a casing or get a hole that won't self-seal? Simple. Pull out your handy length of steel wire, garrote some passing cyclist, leave his body for the mountain lions and ride off on his bike. -- Andrew Muzi www.yellowjersey.org/ Open every day since 1 April, 1971 |
#78
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Flat repair
On 14/08/2018 12:07 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Tuesday, August 14, 2018 at 7:10:28 AM UTC-7, wrote: On Monday, August 13, 2018 at 5:25:28 PM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote: On Monday, August 13, 2018 at 3:49:02 PM UTC-7, wrote: On Monday, August 13, 2018 at 3:03:25 PM UTC-7, news18 wrote: On 14/08/18 04:15, wrote: Can you people explain to me why you would buy innertubes, flat repair kits and various methods of inflating flatted tires when you don't have to flat a tire and only need to inflate it if you happen to get a large enough hole in it release sufficient air to soften the tire before it seals again? 1. Lock-in. For the ignorant, and you have to be ignorant not to have noticed how manufacturers try to lock customers into their product by making it incompatible with products from other manufacturers. Heck, they even make their new products incompatible with their own products. 2. Performance. I always laugh at claims of superior performance when they relie on results from very narrow test conditions. 3. Reliability; tubeless setup fails once. Tube and tyre need to fail twice to have you walking. 1. Exactly HOW are manufacturers trying to "lock us in" to their product when virtually every new wheels and every new tire tubeless compatible? 2. If you have ever run tests on mechanical components in your life than you know that it is impossible to test for every condition. What we have seen is testing by at least a half dozen source from tire manufacturers to Cycling News testing the rolling resistance of narrow to wide tires and they all report the same outcome - the rougher the roads the less rolling resistance wider tires at lower pressures have compared to narrower higher pressure tires. That is not "very narrow test conditions". The last video showed rolling resistance of the three different TYPES of tires. This was not meant to give precise measurements but relative differences. And as should come as not surprise to anyone capable of engineering, the tire that has the least intercomponent friction the less the relative rolling resistance. Again, these do nothing more than burst myths that have been surrounding bicycle tires for a long time. Anyone that went from the older 18 mm tires at 160 psi to 23 mm tires at 110 psi could and did report this. 3. Tubeless tires cannot fail from small goathead thorns or wires left on the road by wearing through steel belted tires that give you a tube tire flat. A dramatic cut in the tire will destroy them BOTH equally. Obviously you like carrying around two tubes, a patch kit, two CO2 cartridges and a filler and a mini-pump because it seems romantic to you. You are perfectly free to feel that the same technology used on every other rubber tired vehicle in the world is not suited to bicycles but if you're going to argue, don't use inadequate responses like "lock you in to their products" or "testing procedures are only for very narrow test conditions." when this isn't the case at all. It is far easier to test bicycle tire performance than those of a motorcycles. What do you do if a tubeless tire goes belly-up on a ride? Nothing is indestructible. I would still carry a tube and a pump and/or a CO2 cartridge even if I was on tubeless. -- Jay Beattie. How does a tubeless tire go "belly up" on a ride under different conditions than it would a tube tire? Explain to us all what you do if you get a massive cut or a broken cord on your tube tire? I really have a hard time dealing with people that don't think out what they are responding with. I boot casings with a dollar bill or a Cliff bar wrapper, held in place by an inner tube. What's the fix on a tubeless tire when you cut a casing or get a hole that won't self-seal? Same here. And the new paper money in Canada is plastic which works really well for booting a slit tire. I have no idea what you would do for tubeless tires. |
#79
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Flat repair
On 14/08/2018 12:28 PM, AMuzi wrote:
On 8/14/2018 11:07 AM, jbeattie wrote: On Tuesday, August 14, 2018 at 7:10:28 AM UTC-7, wrote: On Monday, August 13, 2018 at 5:25:28 PM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote: On Monday, August 13, 2018 at 3:49:02 PM UTC-7, wrote: On Monday, August 13, 2018 at 3:03:25 PM UTC-7, news18 wrote: On 14/08/18 04:15, wrote: Can you people explain to me why you would buy innertubes, flat repair kits and various methods of inflating flatted tires when you don't have to flat a tire and only need to inflate it if you happen to get a large enough hole in it release sufficient air to soften the tire before it seals again? 1. Lock-in. For the ignorant, and you have to be ignorant not to have noticedÂ* how manufacturers try to lock customers into their product by making it incompatible with products from other manufacturers. Heck, they even make their new products incompatible with their own products. 2. Performance. I always laugh at claims of superior performance when they relie on results from very narrow test conditions. 3. Reliability; tubeless setup fails once. Tube and tyre need to fail twice to have you walking. 1. Exactly HOW are manufacturers trying to "lock us in" to their product when virtually every new wheels and every new tire tubeless compatible? 2. If you have ever run tests on mechanical components in your life than you know that it is impossible to test for every condition. What we have seen is testing by at least a half dozen source from tire manufacturers to Cycling News testing the rolling resistance of narrow to wide tires and they all report the same outcome - the rougher the roads the less rolling resistance wider tires at lower pressures have compared to narrower higher pressure tires. That is not "very narrow test conditions". The last video showed rolling resistance of the three different TYPES of tires. This was not meant to give precise measurements but relative differences. And as should come as not surprise to anyone capable of engineering, the tire that has the least intercomponent friction the less the relative rolling resistance. Again, these do nothing more than burst myths that have been surrounding bicycle tires for a long time. Anyone that went from the older 18 mm tires at 160 psi to 23 mm tires at 110 psi could and did report this. 3. Tubeless tires cannot fail from small goathead thorns or wires left on the road by wearing through steel belted tires that give you a tube tire flat. A dramatic cut in the tire will destroy them BOTH equally. Obviously you like carrying around two tubes, a patch kit, two CO2 cartridges and a filler and a mini-pump because it seems romantic to you. You are perfectly free to feel that the same technology used on every other rubber tired vehicle in the world is not suited to bicycles but if you're going to argue, don't use inadequate responses like "lock you in to their products" Â* or "testing procedures are only for very narrow test conditions." when this isn't the case at all. It is far easier to test bicycle tire performance than those of a motorcycles. What do you do if a tubeless tire goes belly-up on a ride?Â* Nothing is indestructible. I would still carry a tube and a pump and/or a CO2 cartridge even if I was on tubeless. -- Jay Beattie. How does a tubeless tire go "belly up" on a ride under different conditions than it would a tube tire? Explain to us all what you do if you get a massive cut or a broken cord on your tube tire? I really have a hard time dealing with people that don't think out what they are responding with. I boot casings with a dollar bill or a Cliff bar wrapper, held in place by an inner tube.Â* What's the fix on a tubeless tire when you cut a casing or get a hole that won't self-seal? Simple. Pull out your handy length of steel wire, garrote some passing cyclist, leave his body for the mountain lions and ride off on his bike. Coffee through the nose... |
#80
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Flat repair
On Tuesday, August 14, 2018 at 6:07:42 PM UTC+2, jbeattie wrote:
On Tuesday, August 14, 2018 at 7:10:28 AM UTC-7, wrote: On Monday, August 13, 2018 at 5:25:28 PM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote: On Monday, August 13, 2018 at 3:49:02 PM UTC-7, wrote: On Monday, August 13, 2018 at 3:03:25 PM UTC-7, news18 wrote: On 14/08/18 04:15, wrote: Can you people explain to me why you would buy innertubes, flat repair kits and various methods of inflating flatted tires when you don't have to flat a tire and only need to inflate it if you happen to get a large enough hole in it release sufficient air to soften the tire before it seals again? 1. Lock-in. For the ignorant, and you have to be ignorant not to have noticed how manufacturers try to lock customers into their product by making it incompatible with products from other manufacturers. Heck, they even make their new products incompatible with their own products. 2. Performance. I always laugh at claims of superior performance when they relie on results from very narrow test conditions. 3. Reliability; tubeless setup fails once. Tube and tyre need to fail twice to have you walking. 1. Exactly HOW are manufacturers trying to "lock us in" to their product when virtually every new wheels and every new tire tubeless compatible? 2. If you have ever run tests on mechanical components in your life than you know that it is impossible to test for every condition. What we have seen is testing by at least a half dozen source from tire manufacturers to Cycling News testing the rolling resistance of narrow to wide tires and they all report the same outcome - the rougher the roads the less rolling resistance wider tires at lower pressures have compared to narrower higher pressure tires. That is not "very narrow test conditions". The last video showed rolling resistance of the three different TYPES of tires. This was not meant to give precise measurements but relative differences. And as should come as not surprise to anyone capable of engineering, the tire that has the least intercomponent friction the less the relative rolling resistance. Again, these do nothing more than burst myths that have been surrounding bicycle tires for a long time. Anyone that went from the older 18 mm tires at 160 psi to 23 mm tires at 110 psi could and did report this. 3. Tubeless tires cannot fail from small goathead thorns or wires left on the road by wearing through steel belted tires that give you a tube tire flat. A dramatic cut in the tire will destroy them BOTH equally. Obviously you like carrying around two tubes, a patch kit, two CO2 cartridges and a filler and a mini-pump because it seems romantic to you. You are perfectly free to feel that the same technology used on every other rubber tired vehicle in the world is not suited to bicycles but if you're going to argue, don't use inadequate responses like "lock you in to their products" or "testing procedures are only for very narrow test conditions." when this isn't the case at all. It is far easier to test bicycle tire performance than those of a motorcycles. What do you do if a tubeless tire goes belly-up on a ride? Nothing is indestructible. I would still carry a tube and a pump and/or a CO2 cartridge even if I was on tubeless. -- Jay Beattie. How does a tubeless tire go "belly up" on a ride under different conditions than it would a tube tire? Explain to us all what you do if you get a massive cut or a broken cord on your tube tire? I really have a hard time dealing with people that don't think out what they are responding with. I boot casings with a dollar bill or a Cliff bar wrapper, held in place by an inner tube. What's the fix on a tubeless tire when you cut a casing or get a hole that won't self-seal? -- Jay Beattie. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=4i0ttwnSszY pfff..... Lou |
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