Team vs Strada

www.ransbikes.com/ITRForce5.htm

Thanks for bringing this to our attention. Interesting that this will
be available in March as RANS didn't make any mention of it at
Interbike. I guess they are feeling the hurt in decreased V-Rex sales
due to the popularity of Bacchetta and other newer designs. Just as
when I first learned of Volae, I think it is good to see competition
in the big wheeled SWB (highracer) market. The more competition the
more refinement there will be overall and perhaps lower prices and
better values.

When I looked at the photos of the Force 5 on the above link my first
thought was "oh no, Randy just couldn't resist adding triangulation
and spoiling the clean lines of what would have been a stick frame and
all that tubing hanging down below the top tube looks like it would
add frontal area". My next thought was "yuck, they are using the
Zephyr seat". I tried one of these Zephyr seats on a V2 Formula at the
Interbike outdoor demo day and was not impressed. It is very light
weight for a mesh seat but that is the only advantage I could find.
The seat back is narrower than a conventional RANS or Bacchetta mesh
seat back and because of this I could feel the hard seat back rails
digging into my back. To me one of the big advantages of a hard shell
seat is that it can be made narrower so it won't create additional
frontal area any wider than the rider's torso. When the seat back
tubes of a mesh seat are moved closer together on a mesh seat the seat
is no longer wider than the rider's torso so now the tubes can make
direct contact with the rider's back. The other problem I noticed with
the Zephyr seat on the V2 Formula was the seat base pad was very thin
and hard. This caused the beginnings of recumbent butt after a 15
minute ride. With the more laid back seat positon of the Force 5 this
may not be an issue as a greater percentage of the rider's weight will
be on their back rather than their working muscles but that might also
make the seat tubes digging into the back issue more pronounced. Randy
did tell me I was the only one who rode the V2 Formula seat who didn't
like it. I'm reasonably confident I was also the thinnest rider to
have tried it that day so my lack of natural padding may have
exasperated the issue, however it may still be an issue for heavier
riders on long rides. I wonder what the longest ride someone has done
in the Zephyr seat is. I know I've found the regular RANS seat and M5
seat very comfortable on rides of up to double century length.

Below is what Randy wrote about the Force 5 with my inline comments
added:

INTO THE RIDE article #13

A NEW RANS SHORT WHEELBASE
By Randy Schlitter


In the last two installments the topics were racing, organizing a new group
and finally the hardware. As you might have guessed the third article is
adding another choice to that hardware.



The Force 5 is a new dual 650c wheeled short wheel based recumbent due out
this March. The bike will be produced at our Hays Kansas plant, so the supply
line will start out at a few per week, increasing, as demand requires. There
will be two versions the Force 5 XP at $2,195 and the Force 5 LE at $1,595.
Each will feature the same frame in two sizes and colors, Silver Bronze as
shown, and Rush Red. In either form you will find this bike light, fast, user
friendly, great handling, and top quality. The goal was to create a dual 650c
wheeled bike, similar to the Rocket, apart enough from the V-Rex that would be
light, equipped with road bike components, and have cruising speeds at or
above the V2 Formula.*

That seems like a good goal and I'm glad to see the Force 5 is being
produced in the US. The prices seem very reasonable, especially
considering the complexity of the frame and the fact the frame is
built in the US rather than Taiwan. The Force 5 LE is $255 less than a
Bacchetta Strada. I wonder how the components will compare. I've had
customers who like the concept of a big wheeled SWB but can't afford a
Strada so this will provide a less expensive alternative.

Our new Zephyr Seat will be featured on the XP version and the stock RANS seat

See comments above about the Zephyr seat. Good to see the LE model
will be using the stock RANS seat instead. It would be nice to have a
composite shell seat option for those like myself who prefer shell
seats.

on the LE.* The seat height at 23" to the top of the cushion at mid rail point
on the XL version. The seat is 22.5 high on the The boom extends a pinch more
forward and up to clear the front wheel with less overlap. Sizing of the frame
is on par with out current standards, meaning a four-inch shorter wheelbase
will be offered for the standard size model. Another advantage of US
production is we can offer two sizes of the Force 5 without increased cost.

I'd take the XL version. I'm glad to see RANS won't be charging extra
for the XL size. Charging $50 extra on their current steel frame bikes
and $100 extra on the V2 Formula is discrimination against taller
riders.

Comparing the Force 5 to other bikes like Vole and Bacchetta the most striking
difference is we have a trussed frame. I am not turned on by "stick" frames
simply because they offer little advantage other than they are cheaper to
produce. Such frames suffer from having no depth of structure. This means
heavy thick wall tubes if they want to avoid future frame cracking problems.*

On the one hand it is nice to see Randy's honesty here. On the other
hand it is generally considered poor form to directly mention a name
of a competitor and imply their frames may have future cracking
problems. I believe Volae uses the same 2" x 0.035" wall thickness
tube that was used on the Visions. I'm not sure what the wall
thickness of the teardrop Bacchetta tube is but suspect it is thicker.
I do think if going ultralight on a monotube frame titanium is the way
to go as the tubing doesn't have to be so thin wall and a thicker
walled titanium tube will still be lighter than a thin walled steel
tube of the same diameter. I'm not aware of any frame failures on the
bikes using 2" x 0.035" monotubes but have heard of some on bikes with
1.75" x 0.035" monotubes.

Anyways besides being cheaper to produce I find stick frames more
visually attractive because I like simple clean lines. The Force 5
does not strike me as a beautiful frame though I do think it looks
better than a V-Rex and looks good for a triangulated frame.

Another property of the "stick frames" is they flex more which equals a loss
in power transmission. Even the curved stays will flex some since a curved
tube acts like a spring under load. The Force 5 has straight seat and chain
stays, this makes for a light bike with good power transfer.

For me one of the selling features of a monotube stick frame like the
Bacchetta is that it has some vertical compliance giving a smoother,
more comfortable ride. Maybe a strong, heavy rider wants the frame to
be as stiff as possible but I much prefer to have some flex in the
vertical direction to absorb shock and give better road holding on
rough roads as the wheels are less likely to hop and skitter.

In the case of the Force 5 a lot of thought was put into each frame tube to
get maximum performance with as little weight as possible. We sculpted more
than half the tubes to accommodating shapes. The seat and chain stays are
ovals for better load transfer and chain clearance. And perhaps what will
become a signature aspect is the Y chain stay. It blends from a single tube
that is also shaped from round to oval intersecting with the two oval chain
stays that shoot straight back to the dropouts.

I can see a lot of thought was put into each frame tube and it looks
very nicely done for this type of a frame. It does seem some aspects
of the rear end design of the Force 5 could be transfered to other
RANS models.

The drop outs happen to be our traditional design that works perfectly with
the oval tube, and create just enough chain clearance at the cluster, again
offering the most direct load path and least weight.

Nice.

We chose a double idler system again for performance reasons. The single idler
like used on the Bacchetta requires more chain (more weight), plus creates
more friction and noise. The top idler is placed to deflect the drive chain
from a straight line the least amount possible and still have clearance. Each
idler is supported on a massive 8mm bolt and is free to slide side ways 15mm.
This 8mm bolt mounts into the frame using bushings buried into the tubes,
providing a very rigid mount.

I don't see how having a double rather than single idler system would
decrease drivetrain friction and noise as compared to the single idler
system Bacchetta uses. The amount of chain saved by having a two idler
rather than a one idler system must be minimal. How many links of
chain are saved? I'd think the extra weight of the second idler,
second idler mounting bolt and second idler frame braze-on would more
than offset the slight savings in chain weight. It would be nice to
see a larger diameter drive side idler for greater efficiency and
reduced wear rates.

Shown is our 47" wheel base version, with an X-seam of 39" to 49". This bike
is a light 28.5 lbs. WITH the stock seat and 25.15 lbs. with our new Zephyr
seat. The 43" wheelbase is actually my size and handles even sweeter and is
lighter yet. The x-seam range on this bike is 35" to 45".*

Good, same wheelbase as a Bacchetta on the XL frame. If the weights
are accurate they are really good as I found the following weights for
the steel frame Bacchetta large wheel bikes without pedals:
2002 Strada, medium: 13.35 kg (29 lbs. 8 oz.)
2003 Strada, medium: 13.5 kg (29 lbs. 12 oz.)
2003 Strada, large: 13.55 kg (29 lbs. 14 oz.)
2002 Strada, large with M5 carbon seat: 12.4 kg (27 lbs. 6 oz.)
2003 Corsa, medium: 12.25 kg (27 lbs.)

Dual pivot calipers provide front and rear braking. The frame is designed to
handle many brands of dual pivot caliper but the Shimano 105's will be stock
on the Force 5 XP version with a lower cost brake set on the LE. A special
converter is used that allows the brake cable to enter from below the brake.
The converter brings the cable up the center as per original design of the
brake.

This special converter to allow the brake cable to enter below the
brake might be a breakthrough. I wonder if this converter would allow
me to run a high end road bike brake on the front of my Aero. It looks
like the lower return chain due to the Aero only having one idler
further back might still create some interference with the to of a
conventional road brake.

The handle-bars are the B-37 with a shorter riser sans the cable stops. There
is no flip-it, nor do we feel it required. The bar placement seems to be well
within reach of most riders. Fore and aft distance can be altered with other
bars, tilt, or turning around the riser. There is plenty of up and down
travel. The ideal setting is just above the knees, and with moderate seat tilt
the bar is well below the sight line.*

Nice, glad to see the riser is going from having cable stops with that
short run of water catching bare cable to continuous housings like
Bacchetta.

On my test rides of the Force 5, I was able to capture a long quested goal,
the acceleration of a light road bike. I expected the bike to be less friendly
in the mount and go department, but it was not as bad as expected. The solid
feeling bars may have a lot to do with it. I notice I use them to help throw
my feet to the pedals. So in a flash you can be up and running. At first the
high BB is novel but after awhile it becomes no biggie and is a good trade for
the steady handling the dual 650c wheels provide. Like a road bike it has very

I agree about all this based on my experience with the Aero.

little need to steer. In fact I have pounded up and down hill, swooped through
curves, never touching the bars. Dare say steering is optional! For fun I will
take my hand and feet off and hold my arms high overhead, dangling my legs off
the pedals, steering with "butt swings". Of course you need to understand this
is only for testing purposes and don't try this at home! Also we are not quite
sure just what we are testing with this move. Maybe the "spread eagle geek
move? "

Funny, I'd like to see Randy performing this testing!

Speed was a big part of the goal on the Force 5, and it will prove it out once
in the hands of a few good engines. From the slow roll to the top end this
bike has a friendly nature. From our testing group none had much trouble
jumping on and riding, even the very new to recumbents found the bike natural
in the handling.

Sounds like it has good geometry.

As one would suspect the road will come through a bit harsh on this bike, but
it is of a quality I cannot place, similar to the suspension of a BMW, stiff,
in control, but certainly acceptable. Some will want to opt out for the
thicker cushion no doubt, which will insulate the road vibes, but it may pay
to try the intended cushion since it does hug the ground equipped as such.*

Well I prefer the feel of a BMW to an American car with overly soft
suspension but I think you'll find the ride in a BMW much smoother
than any non-suspended recumbent. If you want BMW feel in a bike ride
an HP Velotechnik Speedmachine, smooth and well controlled and still
has good feel of the road.

To me the Aero is borderline too harsh. It sounds like I'd find the
ride of the Force 5 with its triangulated frame too harsh at least
with the Zephyr seat and thin pad. The roads around here are very
rough and we have rough high speed descents which probably don't exist
in Kansas.

Production is underway and bikes should be hitting the stores mid Feb to
middle March. It is made in USA, and priced to excite. With the frame being
identical between the XP and LE, you could enjoy the essence of this fine bike
at a very reasonable price and up-scale components, seat and such later. There
are no short-comings in quality or specs (soon to appear on this site). The
Force 5 will soon be a new force to reckon with in the line up of new breed of
racing recumbents. Now if we can just get some force behind staging these
races!

I look forward to seeing the specifications and will probably order a
size XL LE version to try it out first hand and be able to offer a
lower priced big wheeled SWB alternative to the Strada.

It looks like the frame has clearance for much wider tyres. How about
doing a 559mm wheeled version with wider tyres and disc brakes? This
could be a rough stuff capable SWB replacement for the Vivo.

--------------------------------------------
Zach Kaplan Cycles
Alameda, Northern California, North America
510-522-BENT (2368)
zakaplan at earthlink dot net

Zach Kaplan Cycles wrote:

...
Anyways besides being cheaper to produce I find stick frames more
visually attractive because I like simple clean lines. The Force 5
does not strike me as a beautiful frame though I do think it looks
better than a V-Rex and looks good for a triangulated frame....

I must disagree (this is a matter of taste, after all). I find the frame
design of the RANS Force 5 makes it more attractive than the "stick
bikes" of the competition. Maybe one has to have performed a structural
analysis of a truss frame to appreciate trusses?

I would also be very tempted to exchange the stock handlebars and riser
for a Flip-It ® and cut down T-bars, similar to the ones on this bike.
[1]

[1] http://www.ihpva.org/incoming/2002/sunset/Sunset001.jpg

Tom Sherman – Close to 41½ N, 90½ W

I'd have to agree with Tom on this one [see Tom, it can happen :-) ] the
design integrity of the frame, like OE Vapor and P38 is a beauty in it
self.

Tom Sherman wrote:
Zach Kaplan Cycles wrote:

...
Anyways besides being cheaper to produce I find stick frames more
visually attractive because I like simple clean lines. The Force 5
does not strike me as a beautiful frame though I do think it looks
better than a V-Rex and looks good for a triangulated frame....


I must disagree (this is a matter of taste, after all). I find the frame
design of the RANS Force 5 makes it more attractive than the "stick
bikes" of the competition. Maybe one has to have performed a structural
analysis of a truss frame to appreciate trusses?

I would also be very tempted to exchange the stock handlebars and riser
for a Flip-It ® and cut down T-bars, similar to the ones on this bike.
[1]

[1] http://www.ihpva.org/incoming/2002/sunset/Sunset001.jpg

Tom Sherman – Close to 41½ N, 90½ W

Originally posted by Robert Siegel What 3-piece handlebar? Mine appear
to be one piece. Has a conventional stem and riser

Bo

It looks like the handlebar is one piece horizontal across the front an
one piece on each side (welded) for the shifters, brake levers an
grips. It looks very similar to the Saber handle bar

Mik


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