ARBR has gone downhill

"Rocketman" wrote in message
news:lbRBb.359222$275.1178300@attbi_s53...

"skip" wrote in message
...

"Just zis Guy, you know?" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 10 Dec 2003 16:04:36 -0600, "skip" wrote:

But then only two hours earlier Rocketman's contribution toward
making
arbr
a
vital resource, increase S/N ratio, and to
better our state is reflected in this exchange:

Republicans want to starve kids, kick old people out on the street,
make poor people have to eat dog food to survive, poison the air,
land
and water and kill millions of American kids with your imperialist
wars.

Well, hell, I thought you were only complaining about *contentious*
off-topic stuff ;-)

Guy
===
** WARNING ** This posting may contain traces of irony.
http://chapmancentral.demon.co.uk

I'm not complaining, mind you (having contributed my share), only noting
the
traces of *irony* in all of this.

And this is helping in what way, other than as a self-serving display of
tattle-tailing? Ah, that's what I thought.

Maybe next time you can contribute something of value to our group.

-Rocketman


Rocketman I'm sorry you're unhappy about being exposed in a pot kettle black
deal, but the hypocrisy and irony of all this was so egregious I couldn't
stop myself from pointing it out to those who seemingly have such a
difficult time seeing it. If you're going to continue posting in such an
extreme political vein perhaps you should consider backing off the "it's
all Dolan's fault" ragging you've been joining in on lately. Just a
suggestion.

skip

(Kurt Fischer) wrote in message ...

Edward Dolan wrote:

Jon, did it ever occur to you that maybe the recumbent related topics
are so boring and dull that no one is paying any attention to them
anymore. Instead, these OT posts, which you so much deplore, seem to
be generating a lot of responses. Why is that I wonder? It can't
possibly be just me, can it?


No, it's not just you, it takes two to Tango, at minimum. These OT-posts
attract attention because we are all human beings after all, it's kind
of an ambivalent dilemma: On the one hand we feel we should stay away
from this threads, but on the other they are corresponding to our lowest
instincts. Many of us stare fascinated at you and your counterparts
awaiting eagerly the next sensations of your political mud-wrestling.

Yes, I surely do appreciate what you say about it taking two to tango.
But you lose me on the lowest instincts comment. I don't really see it
that way. Everything is and should be grist for the mill.

So you shouldn't feel too guilty and I don't blame you alone,
nevertheless I think you should give some thoughts a serious
deliberation.

First I think you fall into a major error dividing this group into
liberals and conservatives. People are not here in the first line
because of their political orientation, they want to talk about
recumbents. And I don't buy your crusade against the wicked liberals, in
reality you and all of your _deliberately_ off topic posting buddies -
liberals, conservatives, or whatever - are leading a very unholy war
against one of the most important principles of Usenet and against all
who are trying to maintain this fundamental principle - liberals,
conservatives or whatever.

I'm sure you know what principle I'm aiming at: Usenet is divided into
subjects, not into groups of people discussing all and everything.
That's why there are thousands of groups with different topics, not a
single group talk.all, where you would have to browse through zillions
of postings to find the ones you're interested in. Or even worse:
thousands of talk.all groups and you had to scroll through all this
groups till you were able to find by chance what you were seeking.

An excellent exposition of what newsgroups are all about which I
appreciate fully.

Of course a certain amount of OT will happen in every group, that's ok
and simply a consequence of human nature, but as soon as these posts
exceed a critical mass, the feelings will get nastier and nastier and
the good humor gets lost.

I am part of that certain amount of OT. It should never exceed a
critical mass as you say and normally it doesn't. What is going on
right now is a bit of housekeeping with me as it's object. All of this
should be on maybe just a couple of OT threads, but threads multiply
like snakes with no rhyme nor reason to them. Nastiness is mostly in
the mind of the reader and what passes for good humor is mostly just
God awful boring!

But since I am the object of the discussion, what would you have me
do. Just disappear? I am convinced that no one can control a
newsgroup. I believe if you would care to take a look at my posting in
toto to this newsgroup you would find that I am quite in the
mainstream. I am offending no more so than anyone else. I do not go
into long political rants unless that is what I am confronted with. I
do not bring up political subjects willy-nilly. And I carefully gauge
the tone of my response to what I have received. It is all tit for
tat.

I do vote for free speech, and I'm convinced you should say what you
want to say, but I'd suggest to do it at the right places. And a.r.b.r.
is not the right place to talk about Bush and politics in an extended
way. All you excessive OT-posters act like golfers occupying a
football-field where teams are playing and many spectators(lurkers) want
to watch the football-game.
That's unfair against players and spectators and will cause anger sooner
or later, even if some of the spectators are interested also in golf.

I hope a.r.b.r. will survive the hard times, maybe your excessive
OT-posting will be good for something. By making a profession out of it
and doing it as fulltime-job you probably will clearly demonstrate where
this will lead. So maybe, Ed, you will serve as a mirror for all the
"left wing wackos" who think it's okay to post longwinded OT-threads.

My so called "excessive OT posting" is in response to the gang-up that
is going on here. I have to respond to the many whereas those who are
opposed to me do so one by one, and on many different threads. So of
course it looks like I am being excessive. Where is your sense of fair
play?

What sticks in my mind from your message is that it takes two to
tango. I think we can have our OT fun and not be a bother to any one
else. 90% of the message threads and the posts will continue to be on
recumbent related subjects as always. Mostly all I am doing now is
monitoring OT and a few other subject threads which are clearly OT
even though not so labeled. It seems to me that the regular posting is
going on same as always.

You need to face the fact that there are a substantial number of folks
on this newsgroup who clearly enjoy OT. As long as we do not exceed
your critical mass I do not see what the problem is. Read what
Rocketman has to say about it in several of his recent posts. As nuts
as he is on politics, I think he has got it about right. It is just so
easy to ignore anything you do not want to read. I do not even see the
necessity of kill filing, but if that is what others want to do it is
OK by me. The supreme irony that you have to face is that these OT
threads seem to go on and on and accumulate the most messages of any
threads.

Mr. Sherman should be helping me fight this battle but like all
liberals he is out to lunch when you need him the most.

And, for the (good?) end: It's very easy to spoil good manners and to
destroy, think of a house of cards. But it's very difficult and a real
challenge to find back to the good manners and to build up a climate
where useful and constructive debates are possible. Take your choice.

No, you are completely overstating things now. My manners and those
others of us on OT are up to the mark. We are all on the same wave
length and are enjoying one another's company. We are not going to
take over ARBR and we are not going to run it into the ground either.
ARBR is not a house of cards. It is as solid as the Rock of Gibraltar.
There will always be newbies wanting to know something about
recumbents and there will always be regulars who will delight in
informing them and advising them. The same old subjects will go on
forever. Nothing will ever change. And there will always be that 10%
OT. It is all perfectly normal and natural.

I do think there are way too many control freaks here on ARBR. Maybe
many of you would be happier in a chat room situation. It would be a
much smaller group and you would all know one another and be friends.
I prefer the wild wild world of Usenet where you can never predict
what someone is going to say to you. Life does not get any better than
that!

Ed Dolan - Minnesota

"Rocketman" wrote in message news:f9MBb.79779$_M.393835@attbi_s54...
[...]

We're wise to Ed Dolan now. He knows he's not wanted, and inhabits most of
our killfiles permanently. I've stopped responding to him (even by proxy),
and will try my very best not to add to OT threads.

There are about a dozen who have so far indicated via their posts that
they do not much like what I have to say in my humble messages. Let's
see, that probably leaves at least a few thousand who have no
objection and there may well be many hundreds who do enjoy my posts.
So why should I pay any attention to Rocketman and his ilk.

Rocketman is one of those poor benighted souls who does not like to be
crossed, let alone disagreed with. He will be leaving us shortly as he
must have everything his own way. He is a control freak. Apparently
many of the old regulars are going over to something called bicycles
racing recreation. There is an oxymoron if I ever heard one. But I
wish them all god speed and the best of good posting where they can
all bond with one another without any interference from the likes of
me. In the meantime the rest of us will soldier on with our somewhat
contentious posting in the real world of ARBR.

Ed Dolan - Minnesota

Mikael Seierup wrote:

: Oddly enough when we had 20 overlapping OT threads in a week because of 9-11
: one almost got crucified for suggesting people stick to the existing threads
: or taking it somewhere else. I suppose theres OT and OT. ;-/

Ouch. Too bad I wasn't there ;p This is news, where the point IMO
is that you have a fairly strict separation into topical groups.
You can always set the follow-ups to the appropriate group and
continue your fight there. Heck, maybe Ed and folks should take it
to something like alt.usenet.free-speech?

It's different on a forum that's made for the community, not a
topic. Even there I learned that discussing political stuff (like
the repercussions of 9-11) is a good way to get a flame war with
Americans. Europe and the US come from so different angles, we
start as friends and end up finding how different we are as people
when it comes to politics. That's the second reason I steer clear
of heavily political OT.

It is obviously the same for republicans vs. democrats, but a
liberals vs. conservatives fight is largely a US internal matter,
and one that is not of much interest to us Europeans.

Wonder how this group is going to turn out when we have some Arabs
or Malaysians posting here?

--
Risto Varanka | http://www.helsinki.fi/~rvaranka/

Best post I've seen in a long time...

--
Bryan J. Ball
Publisher/Editor
'BentRider Online Magazine
www.bentrideronline.com

"Edward Dolan" wrote in message
om...

Apparently many of the old regulars are going over to something called
bicycles
racing recreation. There is an oxymoron if I ever heard one. But I
wish them all god speed and the best of good posting where they can
all bond with one another without any interference from the likes of
me. In the meantime the rest of us will soldier on with our somewhat
contentious posting in the real world of ARBR.


The suggested migration of a.r.b.r. regulars to rec.bicycle.racing is
attempted humor by Rocketman. Recumbent riders would not be welcomed in
this newsgroup known for its contentiousness that is generally centered
around bike racing matters, who is taking what drugs, personal sexuality,
and other personal characteristics of the posters. Those guys have all the
political sense of a Fabrizo Mazzoleni. But they would surely unite to heap
abuse on a recumbent cyclist who had the misfortune of accidentally
wandering into the newsgroup.

skip

skip wrote:
: The suggested migration of a.r.b.r. regulars to rec.bicycle.racing is
: attempted humor by Rocketman. Recumbent riders would not be welcomed in
: this newsgroup known for its contentiousness that is generally centered
: around bike racing matters, who is taking what drugs, personal sexuality,
: and other personal characteristics of the posters. Those guys have all the
: political sense of a Fabrizo Mazzoleni. But they would surely unite to heap
: abuse on a recumbent cyclist who had the misfortune of accidentally
: wandering into the newsgroup.

Huh, haven't noticed. I even mentioned bents explicitly sometimes.
The group sure has some obnoxious posters (at least part of the
time) but there's also some very likable folks.

--
Risto Varanka | http://www.helsinki.fi/~rvaranka/

Edward Dolan wrote:


Yes, I surely do appreciate what you say about it taking two to tango.
But you lose me on the lowest instincts comment. I don't really see it
that way. Everything is and should be grist for the mill.

Of course it was irony with the inevitable grain of truth in it. I'm
convinced we can't resolve problems without being sincere and seeing our
own responsibility. You're right, you're not the only one who is
enjoying these OT-Threads, everyone who responds and takes part is
responsible for their growing, so I see no reason to blame only you for
it. It's kind of an interaction, not your fault alone.


[...]

I am part of that certain amount of OT. It should never exceed a
critical mass as you say and normally it doesn't. What is going on
right now is a bit of housekeeping with me as it's object. All of this
should be on maybe just a couple of OT threads, but threads multiply
like snakes with no rhyme nor reason to them.

Yes, that's true, OT threads and Usenet in general are hard to predict
and not to control, that's why every poster should be very careful about
his writing. Sometimes it does even help to think before posting. ;-)


Nastiness is mostly in the mind of the reader and what passes for good humor
is mostly just God awful boring!

It's true that beauty often lies in the eye of the beholder, but that's
_no_ excuse for borderless insulting or flaming. As a (retired)
librarian you surely know that it's in the first line the author who is
responsible for his text, not the reader. Please keep this in mind when
using the term "idiot" as a compliment. ;-)



But since I am the object of the discussion, what would you have me
do. Just disappear?

I'm not here to tell you what to do, but as you're asking me, I will
give you my opinion and I'm sure you will take it as what it is. I have
for you the same advices as for anyone else coming to this group:

1. Do not post (extended) off topic stuff (without general acceptance)

2. Do not respond to OT

3. If there is someone or something you dislike, just ignore

4. If you want to discuss a subject which is OT at the current group,
take it to an appropriate group, preferably by setting a follow up to
the new group.
That means you have to fill in the name of the new group in the line for
the follow up and the answer will appear only in the new group.
Sometimes it is more handsome to do this via cross posting, in order to
give the regulars of the next group as much context as possible.

a.r.b.r. ---- (a.r.b.r.)
(alt.politics.bush) ---- alt.politics.bush

Setting a follow up will invite all those to the next group who are
really interested in this discussion. I don't know if this is possible
via Google groups, but if not, you can always start a new thread in the
appropriate group and give a pointer in the old one.

So I do not think you should leave or disappear, but I suggest to take
the major part of your OT-stuff to an appropriate group and to
concentrate on discussions about recumbents in this group. Nobody will
object to a few ramblings now and then, but you shouldn't forget the
main purpose of this group.


I am convinced that no one can control a newsgroup. I believe if you would
care to take a look at my posting in toto to this newsgroup you would find
that I am quite in the mainstream. I am offending no more so than anyone
else. I do not go into long political rants unless that is what I am
confronted with. I do not bring up political subjects willy-nilly. And I
carefully gauge the tone of my response to what I have received. It is all
tit for tat.

I see you and your OT-counterparts trapped in a very muddled
"eye-for-eye"-game, maybe already blinded by hatred for the obvious.
Every time you are responding to one of your opponents, you give him an
excellent opportunity to expose his opinions and to depreciate your own
and vice versa ad infinitum. That's a game nobody can win and victims in
this case are mainly innocent people who came to a.r.b.r. seeking
information and discussions about recumbents. You can't steal away from
this responsibility.


My so called "excessive OT posting" is in response to the gang-up that
is going on here. I have to respond to the many whereas those who are
opposed to me do so one by one, and on many different threads. So of
course it looks like I am being excessive.

Rereading my post you will see that I didn't blame only you for
OT-posting. What's special with you is your _complete_ dedication and
concentration on OT, that's the main difference between you and e.g. Tom
Sherman, who contributes regularly to the topic of this group. I guess
that's why he seems to be more accepted and tolerated than you. This
doesn't excuse his own aberrations to political OT, but at least he
seems to remember sometimes what this group is about.


Where is your sense of fair play?

I will explain it to you. Let's go back to my example about golf and
football: Imagine there is a group of people happily playing football.
While playing, some of them realize they actually prefer playing golf.
As long as they are forming their decision they are allowed to stay on
the field, but when they start seriously to play and more and more
members of the football-team begin to complain about their behavior,
they are supposed to leave the place. It's easy, look around, there are
a lot of fields out there and everyone will find a place suited for his
needs and his interests, just a few clicks of your fingers away. That's
fair play for me.

But what are you OT-posters doing? You know you're not at the right
place, but you point with your fingers at each other crying: "But it was
him who started, not me! And after all, you can see I'm playing golf, so
why don't you get out of my way?"
That's no fair play for me, it's a deliberate nuisance.

[...]

Mr. Sherman should be helping me fight this battle but like all
liberals he is out to lunch when you need him the most.

I don't know if this will help you, but I would him fundamentally tell
the same as you, you're both the other side of the same medal. ;-)



No, you are completely overstating things now. My manners and those
others of us on OT are up to the mark. We are all on the same wave
length and are enjoying one another's company. We are not going to
take over ARBR and we are not going to run it into the ground either.
ARBR is not a house of cards. It is as solid as the Rock of Gibraltar.
There will always be newbies wanting to know something about
recumbents and there will always be regulars who will delight in
informing them and advising them. The same old subjects will go on
forever. Nothing will ever change. And there will always be that 10%
OT. It is all perfectly normal and natural.

That's glorious euphemism for me. Obviously we are not reading the same
group, I can remember a lot of very unhappy campers and their bitter
complaints here.

Besides, everything changes all the time, steadily. Look back only ten
years, there was no recumbent newsgroup. Nobody knows what's going on in
ten or even only five years.

The world of recumbency is growing fast, new models every year, they
become more and more affordable and trikes are gaining rapidly. One
should think there are subjects enough to discuss without the need for
digressing to political themes.


I do think there are way too many control freaks here on ARBR. Maybe
many of you would be happier in a chat room situation. It would be a
much smaller group and you would all know one another and be friends.
I prefer the wild wild world of Usenet where you can never predict
what someone is going to say to you. Life does not get any better than
that!

In my opinion a.r.b.r. plays an important role in the world of
recumbents. I appreciate the occasion to get first hand information
without any restrictions, be it filters, moderation, censorship or
whatever. Of course, most of us are reading it in their spare time, but
there are folks who do serious work, think of Bryan Ball or Bob Bryant,
you will find manufacturers and dealers here, engaged home-builders too,
and many of us can profit from their efforts. So I don't think it's a
good idea to sabotage their work and drive them away by abusing this
group as a forum for personal campaigns. And no, I don't think you're
the only one, but I hope you are reasonable enough to give it a thought.

Kurt

wrote in message
...
skip wrote:
: The suggested migration of a.r.b.r. regulars to rec.bicycle.racing is
: attempted humor by Rocketman. Recumbent riders would not be welcomed
in
: this newsgroup known for its contentiousness that is generally centered
: around bike racing matters, who is taking what drugs, personal
sexuality,
: and other personal characteristics of the posters. Those guys have all
the
: political sense of a Fabrizo Mazzoleni. But they would surely unite to
heap
: abuse on a recumbent cyclist who had the misfortune of accidentally
: wandering into the newsgroup.

Huh, haven't noticed. I even mentioned bents explicitly sometimes.
The group sure has some obnoxious posters (at least part of the
time) but there's also some very likable folks.

--
Risto Varanka | http://www.helsinki.fi/~rvaranka/


Really? Maybe things have changed. Or maybe it's your personal demeanor -
you do seem to get along with most everyone and look for the best in people.
Could you point me to one of your good experiences with a bent post there?
My reference point is Jeff Potter's attempts to interest them in HPV racing
awhile back. Admittedly it has been some time since I visited that group.

skip

skip wrote:

: Really? Maybe things have changed. Or maybe it's your personal demeanor -
: you do seem to get along with most everyone and look for the best in people.
: Could you point me to one of your good experiences with a bent post there?
: My reference point is Jeff Potter's attempts to interest them in HPV racing
: awhile back. Admittedly it has been some time since I visited that group.

Try
http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=e...icycles.racing

alias

http://tinyurl.com/ysvj

I don't think they flamed me once. I also notice some very
familiar posters from here. But maybe it's the bent topic that
attracts them :-)

--
Risto Varanka | http://www.helsinki.fi/~rvaranka/