Bike Stores Endangerd Because of Super Chain Stores?

On Tue, 25 May 2004 01:20:25 GMT, "Mike Jacoubowsky/Chain Reaction
Bicycles" wrote:
The department store had recalibrated his idea of what a bike should
actually cost. He's now searching bike shops up & down the SF Peninsula,
trying to find a high-quality $80 bike. He actually said that! His view is
apparently that, if a department store can sell a bike for $80, he ought to
be able to find a bike shop that will as well.

This is just one more illustration of the damage that's been done by places
like WalMart selling toy bikes cheaply. Had this guy not seen the
inexpensive BSOs (bike-shaped-objects), he would have been willing to spend
the dollars to get something decent (or so it seemed; perhaps I misread him,
but he dressed nicely and didn't drive up in a junker car).

This is not necessarily a bike-specific thing, nor is it necessarily
caused by the "competition" of BSOs. Many people are just cheap, or
short sighted. It extends to every industry. Here's one example:

In the roofing business, we get people asking for minor repairs
whose shingle roof is 30 years old and has finally leaked enough to
see water inside the house. Meanwhile, it's probably been leaking
into the woodwork for ten years, causing (at least) damage to the
roof sheathing, and maybe even interior mold or roof structure
damage. They can't see spending thousands of dollars when all they
have is a tiny leak.

They can't understand that the $200 repair job will be ineffective
no matter how well done, nor that their old roof surface is causing
expensive damage to the wood underneath.

Another example, which may be closer to home, would be computers. A
local computer shop (LCS) has almost the exact same business model,
and competition, as a LBS. It also gets the same customers. Luckily,
I've been out of that racket for long enough that my memories are
vague and generally involve Packard Bell computers (now extinct)
brought in for upgrades.

It's unfortunate that a decent bike has to cost as much as it does, but, as

Bikes do seem expensive, when our budgets are so divided. The
trouble must be that they're not marketed well. Look at home gym
equipment. Nearly every household has some, usually having paid as
much as a low-end LBS bike. A bike gives you exercise AND fun, and
for many, transportation. Yet, home gym equipment, which nobody ever
doubts will quickly become a laundry drying rack, offers _only_
dreary exercise, but people buy loads of it daily.

problem isn't that a decent bike is expensive; the problem is that too much
disposable income is spent on video games and Starbucks and McDonalds etc.

And "Body By Jake" and "The Gazelle" and such.

Or, if you really want to be cynical, you could believe that *my* problem is
that they're spending too much money elsewhere and not enough in my store.

Well, that is, in fact, the way to look at it. I don't hear people
complaining that bikes are too expensive; they just don't bother
with bikes. You (and other bike people, like me) are the ones who
have a problem with that.
--
Rick Onanian

On Tue, 25 May 2004 01:20:25 GMT, "Mike Jacoubowsky/Chain Reaction
Bicycles" wrote:

It's unfortunate that a decent bike has to cost as much as it does, but, as
I pointed out in a prior post, decent bikes are a far better deal now than
they were 20-30 (or more) years ago. In terms of indexing for inflation
*and* percentage of disposable income, bikes are an incredible buy. The
problem isn't that a decent bike is expensive; the problem is that too much
disposable income is spent on video games and Starbucks and McDonalds etc.

It's puzzling to me as a beginning biker who knows better, why there's such
an extreme 'sticker shock' when looking at the high end bikes, even when
I'm telling myself 'hey, you're riding this bike every day. At 1000bucks,
in a little over three months, that's 10 bucks a day - in a year around
three bucks a day. We spend more than that on coffee from StarBucks, fer
crissakes!! ;-p

It may be that as kids and teenagers in the 60s and 70s a 10 speed Schwinn
was in the 100 bucks range, and we thought of a bike almost as a 'toy', and
this has carried over? Could you even -get- a bike in the 1000 range in the
60s? My parents first house was only $13,000!

The internal dialog seems to be - "I can't spend that kind of money on
myself - I'd be acting extravagently"

Maybe part is that bikes seem so fragile. "I take this 200 bike out and it
gets stolen or crumpled, no big deal. But I take a 2000-3000 bike out, and
I'd be afraid to get it dirty".

Hell we have this thought with our new cars, afraid to park it at the Mall,
but knowing they are filled with complex materials and engines and are like
little houses that move, somehow seem to get over the loathing and the
pride in a month, and after that it's just a car.

The sticker shock seems less if you've been riding a good enough bike for a
while and you are getting to be a better rider, and you see what huge
improvement you'd make if you went for a special carbon frame or alloy
component, or titanium. Then you'd be so aware that it is a "barrier
breaker" for you as a rider and it's worth it - you almost ignore the price
as you write out the check.

Good message you've written, Mike. Don't feel down on yourself. It's not
you, but some kinda weird phenomena; and it's changing, IMO. If you sold
three times the numbers of bikes that you do, (i.e. just triple the number
of bikers) the price might come down a bit, just like the PC we use?

snippage

What I have trouble with are people who think
that the problem with bikes from an LBS (local bike shop) is that they're
too expensive. They're not. It's the priorities that people have for
spending their money that has created the "success" (if you can call it
that) of the toy bike. Kids deserve better.

And yes, this hits very close to home, as I've got an 11 year old who really
doesn't know much about the outside world; he'd much rather sit in front of
the TV, playing X-box.

You're not alone!

Best,
-Badger

On Tue, 25 May 2004 01:20:25 GMT, "Mike Jacoubowsky/Chain Reaction
Bicycles" wrote:

This is just one more illustration of the damage that's been done by places
like WalMart selling toy bikes cheaply. Had this guy not seen the
inexpensive BSOs (bike-shaped-objects), he would have been willing to spend
the dollars to get something decent (or so it seemed; perhaps I misread him,
but he dressed nicely and didn't drive up in a junker car).

Hey Mike...I just thought of something!

Perhaps your staff could make up a poster on what are the critical failure
points on BSO and side-by-side comparison to a good bike?

You could have these done on printer paper and hand them out to peeps that
are lke this gentlemen.

Here's a problem that occurs on the Wal-goose:
http://www.people.virginia.edu/~slj/frameflex1.jpg

-B

Hey Mike...I just thought of something!

Perhaps your staff could make up a poster on what are the critical failure
points on BSO and side-by-side comparison to a good bike?

You could have these done on printer paper and hand them out to peeps that
are lke this gentlemen.

Actually, the industry-standard jargon for bad things that happen to bikes,
caused by user error, is the JRA (as in "I was Just Riding Along" and my
frame, for no good reason, collapsed on me, and no, it's not related to the
tire marks on the top tube...).

So, one of my long-talked-about and probably-never-to-be-implemented
projects has been a top-10 JRA poster. Something that would show the
most-common JRA claims, with photos. No doubt it would hang in shop
bathrooms everywhere!

--Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles
http://www.ChainReactionBicycles.com

"Mike Jacoubowsky" wrote

But that need is not to supply people with an adequate bike for their kids;
rather, the need they serve is to sell a BSO (bike shaped object) that
presents a very poor bicycle experience and thus turns away a lot of young
kids from the fun & joys & practicality that a bicycle can offer.

Mike,
Where do you find your Statistics of "turns away a lot of young kids"?
Is this just a feeling of yours? I'm probably older then most in
this group and I can assure you that any of the bikes from WalMart are
miles ahead in performance; safety and general appearance to what was
available when I was a kid. Guess what, I still enjoy biking even
though the bikes of my time were poor compared to now.

I have a 24 year old road bike that was cutting edge technology in its
day. It weights more then my full suspension mountain bike purchased
from WalMart. Point being WalMart is supplying what people want, even
though you feel it's not what they need. I'm not trying to say your
feelings are right or wrong, I'm just stating what I see.

So is it your X-box, or his?

It's his. In all truthfulness, I do not associate computers with having
fun; they're a work tool for me. For fun, I want to get outside the
house!!!

--Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles
http://www.ChainReactionBicycles.com

Badger_South wrote:

Hey Mike...I just thought of something!

Perhaps your staff could make up a poster on what are the critical failure
points on BSO and side-by-side comparison to a good bike?

You could have these done on printer paper and hand them out to peeps that
are lke this gentlemen.

Here's a problem that occurs on the Wal-goose:
http://www.people.virginia.edu/~slj/frameflex1.jpg

Is this the bike that you ride 2 - 3 times a day? If it is, it'd be a
good idea to lay off and wait for your Trek to arrive. It could self
destruct - especially when you are laying some power to the pedals.
Bernie



-B

Question is, is the bad mouthing justified now a days? I know that 10 years
ago if you purchased a bike
at a superstore you ended up with a pile of junk. I am not sure that is
still the case. If you look at the bikes
sold now a days they have aluminium frames, Shimano equipment, suspension if
they are mountain or hybrids...

Can they really be that bad?


"Eric D" wrote in message
om...
"Mike Kruger" wrote
It's not evil not to carry parts. It's just a different business model.

Over time, this business model will fit some aspects of the business
better
than others.
It fits children's bikes pretty well, because people want inexpensive
bikes
and they don't have to last long.

Mike,
Right on! Your comments hit on something that I believe most people
seem to ignore or just don't understand. People that make comments
about the "local bike shop is the only place to buy a bike" are trying
to group all biking activities into one category. Sorry, but that's
just not real world. Some people have the means to buy a bike from
other then WalMart or other discount store. That's great! Good for
those that can. However, there are many who can not afford $500 or
more for a bike. This is another group. Just like the high end bike
users they too desire to ride a bike as opposed to nothing. WalMart
fills a real need, hence the reason for their success. Peolpe can bad
mouth others that buy from WalMart all they want, they won't change a
thing. Knowing this, I believe that a number of people that continue
to bad mouth WalMart bike and people that buy them, are on nothing
more then an ego-trip. Bad mouthing makes them feel superior and in
their minds justifies the high cost of their bike.

Mike Jacoubowsky wrote:

Hey Mike...I just thought of something!

Perhaps your staff could make up a poster on what are the critical failure
points on BSO and side-by-side comparison to a good bike?

You could have these done on printer paper and hand them out to peeps that
are lke this gentlemen.


Actually, the industry-standard jargon for bad things that happen to bikes,
caused by user error, is the JRA (as in "I was Just Riding Along" and my
frame, for no good reason, collapsed on me, and no, it's not related to the
tire marks on the top tube...).

So, one of my long-talked-about and probably-never-to-be-implemented
projects has been a top-10 JRA poster. Something that would show the
most-common JRA claims, with photos. No doubt it would hang in shop
bathrooms everywhere!

--Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles
http://www.ChainReactionBicycles.com


Sounds like a bike shop calendar to me!

Mike,
Where do you find your Statistics of "turns away a lot of young kids"?
Is this just a feeling of yours? I'm probably older then most in
this group and I can assure you that any of the bikes from WalMart are
miles ahead in performance; safety and general appearance to what was
available when I was a kid. Guess what, I still enjoy biking even
though the bikes of my time were poor compared to now.

My definition of a "very poor bicycle experience" is that of a bicycle that
doesn't hold its adjustments and has a very loose feel to it. Not a whole
lot of fun to ride, kinda like a car with loose steering. What's worse,
there's no shop standing behind it... no place to take it back for
adjustments, and often no awareness that adjustments are needed in the first
place (they just think bikes in general are junk, and move on to something
else).

I must take issue with your statement that current WalMart (or other
department-store BSOs) are miles ahead in performance or safety. I'll
accept that appearance has become refined over the years, and generally the
appearance of a department-store bike is where they spend most of their
effort... because it has the best return (more sales) and costs much less
than improving function.

WalMart-type bikes are all about style over function. Dual-suspension is a
perfect example of this. Just what does adding extra, non-adjustable
pivots, plus an undamped shock, do to make a bike better than its
predecessors? It certainly isn't for off-road capability, as they come
adorned with stickers telling you not to do that!

In my perfect world, bikes (especially kids & commuter bikes) would be
simpler, not more complicated. They'd have more-reliable, rather than
flashier, equipment.

I have a 24 year old road bike that was cutting edge technology in its
day. It weights more then my full suspension mountain bike purchased
from WalMart. Point being WalMart is supplying what people want, even
though you feel it's not what they need. I'm not trying to say your
feelings are right or wrong, I'm just stating what I see.

Must be a pretty darned light WalMart bike you've got there! My rain bike
is a 30-year-old road bike, and weighed (and still weighs) about 23 lbs.
Actually, that's about a pound more than when I raced it, due to heavier
wheels. I have yet to weigh a WalMart dual-suspension bike that's under
35lbs.

--Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles
http://www.ChainReactionBicycles.com