attacks on tourmalet

Tom Schulenburg wrote:
"zeno" wrote in message news:3F1C1AA4.5000005@c-
...
David N. Welton wrote:
Ullrich, of all people. He dumped Armstrong, who is fighting his way
back. Looks to be a good one today!


IMO, Jan's attack on Tourmalet was a mistake. He and his team did just
about all the work yesterday and today he blew a lot of E on the
Tourmalet -- pointlessly. Lance is a much better desender than Jan.
Say Jan picked up 30-seconds on that climb by the top. Lance could
have got all that back on the long decent.

When they got to the steep part going up to Luz, where Lance has a
natural advantage anyway over Jan, Jan could not fend off his attack
because Jan had spent more on the Tourmalet and on the previous day.
Lance was only getting stronger.

If Jan had simply marked Lance on the Tourmalet or just pushed the
pace to wear lance down, he would not have spent so much E by the time
they got to the Luz climb. He could have handled Lance's attack on the
steep better and possibly caught or even passed him when the mountain
eased off towards the top. Worst case, if they were even at the
finish, Jan would still be only 15 seconds down going into the final
time trial. Now it's over a minute and Lance has the
psychological momentum.

Bad tactics.

Zeno

It's no secret that Lance has been struggling. The idea is to get him to
crack and gain big time. Even if Lance catches up on the decent, Ullrich
attacks again until Lance can't respond. Why would Jan give Lance an
easy ride up to the last climb where Lance can limit his losses?
-T

'

Setting a huge pace by one of Urlichs teamates might have made sense. It
also might have made sense for Urlich to attack and then slow... An
attack by a rider like Vino who needs a lot of time might have made
sense as well. Lance could easily make up 30-40 seconds on the downhill.
So Urlich needed more than that and he was never getting it. The attack
that Jan made was one that would have been more natural for Lance to
make. If i were Jan I would have been happy with 15-30 seconds deficit
going into the itt.



--
--------------------------
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zeno wrote:
Yeah, but Jan was expending a lot more energy to do that than Lance
(look at the video) and came away with nothing to show for it.


It's not about energy -- that is mostly Mgh. It's more about what
fraction of the energy is anaerobic, which has a high metabolic
cost. Accelerations take one above lactate threshold, which
takes its toll.

"lazysegall" wrote in message
...
Tom Schulenburg wrote:
"zeno" wrote in message
news:3F1C1AA4.5000005@c-
...
David N. Welton wrote:
Ullrich, of all people. He dumped Armstrong, who is fighting his
way
back. Looks to be a good one today!


IMO, Jan's attack on Tourmalet was a mistake. He and his team did
just
about all the work yesterday and today he blew a lot of E on the
Tourmalet -- pointlessly. Lance is a much better desender than Jan.
Say Jan picked up 30-seconds on that climb by the top. Lance could
have got all that back on the long decent.

When they got to the steep part going up to Luz, where Lance has a
natural advantage anyway over Jan, Jan could not fend off his attack
because Jan had spent more on the Tourmalet and on the previous day.
Lance was only getting stronger.

If Jan had simply marked Lance on the Tourmalet or just pushed the
pace to wear lance down, he would not have spent so much E by the
time
they got to the Luz climb. He could have handled Lance's attack on
the
steep better and possibly caught or even passed him when the
mountain
eased off towards the top. Worst case, if they were even at the
finish, Jan would still be only 15 seconds down going into the final
time trial. Now it's over a minute and Lance has the
psychological momentum.

Bad tactics.

Zeno

It's no secret that Lance has been struggling. The idea is to get him
to
crack and gain big time. Even if Lance catches up on the decent,
Ullrich
attacks again until Lance can't respond. Why would Jan give Lance an
easy ride up to the last climb where Lance can limit his losses?
-T

'

Setting a huge pace by one of Urlichs teamates might have made sense. It
also might have made sense for Urlich to attack and then slow... An
attack by a rider like Vino who needs a lot of time might have made
sense as well. Lance could easily make up 30-40 seconds on the downhill.
So Urlich needed more than that and he was never getting it. The attack
that Jan made was one that would have been more natural for Lance to
make. If i were Jan I would have been happy with 15-30 seconds deficit
going into the itt.

Yes, Botero should have been there with U l l rich.




--
--------------------------
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http://www.cyclingforums.com

zeno wrote:
Lance knew he could take it all back on the descent without expending
much E to do it. (It takes a lot more E to gain 30 seconds on a climb
than it does to take it back going down hill.) So, IMO, the chances of
Jan gaining anything in terms of either time on Lance or causing him to
blow up chasing were slim in this situation. Instead, Jan used more
energy, gained nothing, and suffered on the way up to Luz because Lance
was fresher and getting his legs back.

Zeno

It makes sense - somewhat - if you assume that Jan guessed that LANCE
was still suffering. If LANCE wasn't so far on the rebound, Jan might
have gained a separation he could use. Not very likely, but certainly
possible.

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In article , Raptor wrote:

zeno wrote:
Lance knew he could take it all back on the descent without expending
much E to do it. (It takes a lot more E to gain 30 seconds on a climb
than it does to take it back going down hill.) So, IMO, the chances of
Jan gaining anything in terms of either time on Lance or causing him to
blow up chasing were slim in this situation. Instead, Jan used more
energy, gained nothing, and suffered on the way up to Luz because Lance
was fresher and getting his legs back.

Zeno

It makes sense - somewhat - if you assume that Jan guessed that LANCE
was still suffering. If LANCE wasn't so far on the rebound, Jan might
have gained a separation he could use. Not very likely, but certainly
possible.

That's what I thought and what I meant by, he was testing Lance. It's
not hard for Ullrich to get the little gap he got and then he's not
working any harder than Lance when Lance is slowly catching him.

Haven't y'all ever heard of exploratory attacks? Happens all the time
near the beginning of races. Do a little attack and see how people
respond to get an indication how they might respond later during your
real attack. It's also a means to see how you are feeling on the day or
at that moment.

-WG