Unsafe at any speed?-Path beside Beach Rd

On 2007-05-07, cfsmtb (aka Bruce)
was almost, but not quite, entirely unlike tea:
TimC Wrote:

I knew how to solve Shroedinger's equations for physically useful
systems when I was 16. The thought of being able to do that freaks me
out.

Shroedinger? Sp?

Correct, I can't even spell his name anymore. "Sch".

BTW, cat ok?

Currently lost in a box. Not known if dead or alive.

--
TimC
Calm down, it's *only* ones and zeroes.

Theo Bekkers Wrote:
EuanB wrote:
Theo Bekkers Wrote:

Following too close behind another vehicle, tail-gating. Or do you
think that doesn't apply to cyclists for some reason?

From VicRoads, rule 255

RIDING TOO CLOSE TO THE REAR OF A MOTOR VEHICLE[/b]

*THE RIDER OF A BICYCLE MUST NOT RIDE WITHIN 2 METRES OF THE REAR OF
A
MOVING **MOTOR VEHICLE CONTINUOUSLY FOR MORE THAN 200 METRES.*
*PENALTY: 1 PENALTY UNIT.NOTE MOTOR VEHICLE IS DEFINED IN THE ROAD
SAFETY ACT 1986.

[b]So yes, bicycles are treated differently. If they weren't
there wouldn't be a specific rule for them, would there?*

How far are they required to ride from each other? I suspect that in a
courtroom the judge will find something wrong-doing on your part if you
run
up the back of someone.

Of course, no different from a car there. All I have to do is maintain
a gap with sufficient stopping distance. I'm not an experienced bunch
rider but even I can do that, just because you're drafting someone
doesn't mean that your bike has to be directly behind so in an
emergency I can brake alongside the rider in front.

Bunch riding is not illegal Theo, you may wish it to be but it's not so
don't go around saying it is.


--
EuanB

Theo Bekkers Wrote:
Plodder wrote:
"Theo Bekkers" wrote

Certainly. The problem I have is with _mandatory_ cycling
experience.

I haven't advocated "_mandatory_ cycling experience", only mandatory
training. If riding a bike is involved it could well be in a
controlled environment (e.g. a schoolyard) or training centre. I
think experience on the road would be ideal but I have trouble with
the idea of forcing people to actually ride a bike (or drive a car,
ride a horse, whatever). The idea is to promote and ensure (by
training and testing) a higher degree of awareness of the rights,
responsibilities, vulnerabilities and strengths of different road
users.

Then we're nearly in agreement. :-)
And I think the best way to do that is from parents and teachers as you
grow
up, formal training by a qualified instructor before you get a driver's
licence, and continuing education by means of short TV public service
ads as
I've seen in England and Europe.

That might work in Europe where bicycles are part of the furniture but
not here in Australia. A casual pootle along your local bike track
should be enough to persuade you that a significant number of
occaisional cyclists haven't a clue what they're doing.


--
EuanB

"Theo Bekkers" wrote in message
...
Plodder wrote:
"Theo Bekkers" wrote

Certainly. The problem I have is with _mandatory_ cycling experience.

I haven't advocated "_mandatory_ cycling experience", only mandatory
training. If riding a bike is involved it could well be in a
controlled environment (e.g. a schoolyard) or training centre. I
think experience on the road would be ideal but I have trouble with
the idea of forcing people to actually ride a bike (or drive a car,
ride a horse, whatever). The idea is to promote and ensure (by
training and testing) a higher degree of awareness of the rights,
responsibilities, vulnerabilities and strengths of different road
users.

Then we're nearly in agreement. :-)
And I think the best way to do that is from parents and teachers as you
grow up, formal training by a qualified instructor before you get a
driver's licence, and continuing education by means of short TV public
service ads as I've seen in England and Europe.

Theo

The bit that makes me uncomfortable is 'parents'. As recent studies have
found, one reason it takes so long to book in for a driving test is that so
many people fail after being taught by parents, friends, etc. and need to
re-book. The system's clagged up with people who learned from people who
can't drive properly.

People pass on their bad habits. For example, the L plater I saw driving
along the bus/bike lane on South Street yesterday evening. She squeezed past
a cyclist in the lane, forcing him into the gutter. I know that if I was to
teach someone to drive (and it's coming up soon - partner's 16 year-old)
I'll pass on some of the habits I've developed and normalised to the point
where I'm not conscious of those habits (good and bad). I'll try and be
aware but I'll still be imperfect. How many people teach their kids and
aren't even aware, let alone care?

Ideally, I'd love to think that parents are all ideal role models and are
able to teach their kids the life skills they need. Unfortunately, almost
all the parents I know think their job is to have kids. I think a parent's
job is to produce adults - aprt of that is an effective childhood (and all
the mistakes and fun that that brings). In reality, Johnny Bogan produces
little Harley Bogan. Johnny teaches Harley that the main thing to watch out
for when driving is cops - don't get caught. That might only apply to one in
five hundred drivers, but, given I'll be passed by, say, 5000 cars in an
hour, that's 10 people driving past me who are not looking out for my
safety. That's scary...

Better to put pre-drivers on the road on a bike. First, it exposes them to
the road in such a way that they are vulnerable and need to develop road
craft to look after themselves. Second, it gets more people on bikes, making
it safer for all of us. Third, it produces drivers who are aware of the
role, rights and duties of shared road use. Fourth, it means we're reading
from the same rulebooks, both legal and social. I think that's worth having.

Cheers,

Frank

TimC wrote:

I knew how to solve Shroedinger's equations for physically useful
systems when I was 16. The thought of being able to do that freaks me
out.

I wouldn't have the foggiest about it anymore.

QED, I really was smarter back then.

I think you're confusing knowledge with wisdom. I'm sure you have more
wisdom now.

Theo

EuanB wrote:
Theo Bekkers Wrote:

Then we're nearly in agreement. :-)
And I think the best way to do that is from parents and teachers as
you grow
up, formal training by a qualified instructor before you get a
driver's licence, and continuing education by means of short TV
public service ads as
I've seen in England and Europe.

That might work in Europe where bicycles are part of the furniture but
not here in Australia. A casual pootle along your local bike track
should be enough to persuade you that a significant number of
occaisional cyclists haven't a clue what they're doing.

You have no disagreement from me on that, and you can probably add the
Sunday morning club rider in lycra to that as well. I went for a couple of
Sunday rides with a (non-racing) club a long time ago. Probably the most
dangerous time I've ever spent on the road. I agree that any road user
should have training including cyclists. Whether you can give 'formal'
training to all children with their first bike is dubious and mandation
would probably result in the kid not getting a bike at all. So tell me
again why bicycle training should be mandatory before getting a driver's
licence, for those people who have no wish to cycle.

Theo

Plodder wrote:

Better to put pre-drivers on the road on a bike. First, it exposes
them to the road in such a way that they are vulnerable and need to
develop road craft to look after themselves. Second, it gets more
people on bikes, making it safer for all of us. Third, it produces
drivers who are aware of the role, rights and duties of shared road
use. Fourth, it means we're reading from the same rulebooks, both
legal and social. I think that's worth having.

Again, I agree with you. But where do these pre-drivers get their knowledge
of the "role, rights and duties of shared road use" from, if not their
parents, their peers, and their observation of other road-users? I don't
think a compulsory course sold with every 10" two-wheeler, fitted from the
shop with trainer wheels, is gonna fly.

Theo

Theo Bekkers Wrote:
Whether you can give 'formal'
training to all children with their first bike is dubious and mandation
would probably result in the kid not getting a bike at all. So tell me
again why bicycle training should be mandatory before getting a
driver's
licence, for those people who have no wish to cycle.

You're mixing up two arguments.

Mandatory training to anyone who wishes to ride a bike? No, because
the benefits of an untrained rider outweigh the risks to society as a
whole.

Mandatory training to anyone who wishes to get behind the wheel of a
car? Yes, because understanding the limitations of cyclists is crucial
in understanding how to co-exist with them.


--
EuanB

In aus.bicycle on Tue, 8 May 2007 17:35:41 +1000
EuanB wrote:

Mandatory training to anyone who wishes to get behind the wheel of a
car? Yes, because understanding the limitations of cyclists is crucial
in understanding how to co-exist with them.

training about limitations of cyclists? OK.

requiring that to be some period of on-road cycling? I don't agree.

How do you enforce it? Require logbooks? If it's only a few minutes then
it's useless, if it's some kind of "must do 100 hours on a bicycle" it's
equally useless as there's no quality control at all, let alone any way
to enforce. (Logbooks in use by learners in NSW are routinely falsified.)

What I'd like to see is that every learner driver must do at least 5 hours
of professional training, and that training has to include the instructor
talking about bicycles and showing the learner how to properly interact
with other road users. Add that to required classroom training as is
already done with motorcyclists.

Pretty much require a weekend of professional quality-controlled
instruction as is required of motorcyclists, with a pass mark so that
anyone who still doesn't get it has to do it again. No professional
training, no driver's licence. (And for real pie-in-the-sky, require
it to be done every 10 years...)

I note that over 20 years ago the professional instructor I went to told
me about bicycles and how to interact with them. He went out of his way
to ask me about what I thought I needed to do, and to propose scenarios
as to what the cyclist we saw might do and what I should do in response.
(he also did similar things when he saw pedestrians and motorcyclists.
And cars with drivers who wore hats...)

Zebee

"Theo Bekkers" wrote in message
...
Plodder wrote:

Better to put pre-drivers on the road on a bike. First, it exposes
them to the road in such a way that they are vulnerable and need to
develop road craft to look after themselves. Second, it gets more
people on bikes, making it safer for all of us. Third, it produces
drivers who are aware of the role, rights and duties of shared road
use. Fourth, it means we're reading from the same rulebooks, both
legal and social. I think that's worth having.

Again, I agree with you. But where do these pre-drivers get their
knowledge of the "role, rights and duties of shared road use" from, if not
their parents, their peers, and their observation of other road-users? I
don't think a compulsory course sold with every 10" two-wheeler, fitted
from the shop with trainer wheels, is gonna fly.

Theo

I think there's some confusion here. I don't remember advocating compulsory
training before you can ride a bike. I do advocate bicycle training before
you can drive a car. As Euan wrote, any benefit of compulsory bike training
before riding a bike would be outweighed by the amount of people who didn't
take up cycling. Perhaps I've been unclear (or I've been swallowing your
hook!)

To clarify where I stand:
(1) I think anyone who wants to learn to drive a car should pass bicycle
training. No pass, not allowed to apply for a learner's permit. The course
should include riding a bike and a competency test. Medical exemptions could
apply to the riding part but not to the requirement to do the course.

(2) I think road craft should be taught in schools, to a set standard and
shouldn't be left to the vagaries of parents. Parents, friends, other road
users, etc. help develop skills but standards vary too much to ensure we're
all playing by the same set of basic rules. An ideal way to teach road craft
is by riding a bike in a controlled environment.

(3) I don't think it should be mandatory to do a course before you are
allowed to ride a bike; only if you want to drive motorised transport
(including a scooter or moped).

Is that more clear?

Cheers,

Frank